Who schedules NORAD's "war games"?

[The Witch]

After reading the VF article, etc., it seems clear to me that even if you don't believe in a full MIHOP, there was at least one mole in NORAD who provided the hijackers with all the information they'd need to carry out their mission. Someone to tell them to de-activate the beacon that made them visible to NORAD, and someone to schedule those "war games" to confuse the local staff between fantasy and reality that day and make it doubly difficult to respond.

If you find out who scheduled the exercises for that day and track him or her down, you have the person in NORAD who was responsible for making sure the agency couldn't respond effectively. And if that person squeals, you have whoever high up was determined to LIHOP/MIHOP.

So who was it?

[Bolo Boffin]

1. I think they could have figured out turning off the beacon on their own.

Though it isn't mentioned in that context in flight schools (I'd imagine), I'm sure that most competent instructors would explain the importance of keeping the beacon on.

[gbwarming]

3. Absolutely. Every private pilot interacts with ATC using a transponder

Tune into any local airport frequency with a tower and you will hear the controllers asking aircraft coming into their airspace to identify themselves "ident", verbally checking altitude against the transponder reported info, etc. It's obivous that ATC relies on the transponders to keep track of traffic.

Turning off the transponder output is also exceptionally easy:

http://www.meriweather.com/767/ped/tcas.html <-- 757 transponder panel
http://www.avionix.com/xpndr.html <-- general aviation transponders

Shutting off the transponder output is as simple as twisting the knob to STBY on any system. Easy and obvious.

[mikelewis]

2. The funny thing is...

turning off the transpoder does not render a plane invisible (unless of course these were stealth passenger jets). They would still be registered on radar, turning off the transponder would merely turn off the planes information flow. I find it very odd that they couldn't find these planes on radar.

For an operation of this magnitude, it would require at least Myers or Rumsfeld signature though the actual operation would be drawn up by a joint committee.

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Turning off the transponder would actually help identify the

plane as a hijack, particularly after the first plane hit the tower.

Turning off the transponder should have triggered an immediate look see by a military jet.

[hack89]

5. I am not so sure ...

there could be many reasons for losing a transponder starting with mechanical failure and pilot error. I suspect that loss of transponders and communications are more frequent then one would believe and I don't think the ATCs are on a hair trigger to launch fighters.

I disagree about the immediate intercept - no one has ever shown in this forum that there have been any intercepts for any reason at all over the continental US in the past 20 years or so. Payne Stewart is a borderline exception and even then it took over any hour before it was intercepted.

[Sinti]

6. Intercepts happen

Here ya go


This is a report stating that they should draw down the Continental Air Defense force strength from May of 1994


Overall, during the past 4 years, NORAD’s alert
fighters took off to intercept aircraft (referred to as scrambled)
1,518 times, or an average of 15 times per site per year.

http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat3/151250.pdf


Here they are patting themselves on the back, god bless 'em


WADS Receives Organizational Excellence Award

The sector is the Air National Guard organization responsible for the air sovereignty of the western 63% of the continental United States. More than 300 Washington Air National Guard members at WADS have operational control of fighters on continuous alert, keeping track of 1.9 million square miles of airspace, from Texas to the Pacific Coast, across to North Dakota. WADS works directly with three alert bases, where pilots wait for the call to identify unknown aircraft that could be a threat to the nation’s air sovereignty. In the award-judging period from May 15, 1996 to May 14, 1998, the sector "scrambled" jets 129 times to identify these "unknown riders". The WADS scrambled jets another 42 times against potential and actual drug smugglers to support the Domestic Air Interdiction Coordination Center and U.S. Drug Enforcement agencies.

http://www.washingtonairguard.com/fo-wadsaward.html

I could find you more, but I don't think it would be a good use of my time.

[hack89]

8. I think you missed my point ...

there is no proof of intercepts over the continental US. I know that there have been many intercepts of unknown aircraft over water as they approached the US landmass but there is no evidence of intercepts over land.

Are you aware, for example, there were no Air defense identification zones(ADIZ) over land until 2003?

In 2003 the U.S. created a "temporary" ADIZ around the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area as a response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. The concept is to create a restricted zone for air traffic near strategically sensitive locations in the District of Columbia, such as the White House.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone

Air defense identification zones (ADIZ) exist over the coastal waters of the United States and along the U.S border with Mexico (contiguous ADIZ) and over some land areas (domestic or land-based ADIZ). Aircraft flying within or through the contiguous ADIZ must be on a flight plan (either IFR or defense VFR, known as DVFR), establish and maintain two-way radio communications with ATC, and squawk a discrete transponder code. Pilots flying through or within the contiguous ADIZ must give an estimated time of ADIZ entry to the FSS. If on an IFR flight plan, ATC will be advised of your position. If on a VFR flight plan, pilots must file their estimated time of ADIZ penetration with the FSS and update this time if it changes by more than 15 minutes. If you do not update this time and your actual ADIZ penetration time differs from the estimated time by more than 15 minutes expect a military interception.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa02.pdf

[Sinti]

9. These are not all over water. They are unidentified craft...

They send fighters to flank them. They come up on the wings, ID them, see what the problem might be, and generally force them to land.

Nonetheless, ignore this and say what you please.

[hack89]

10. Care to actually prove your point?

They intercept in ADIZs, all the ADIZs were over water therefore the interceptions were over water. It seem simple to me.

Why for example wasn't Payne Stewart intercepted in 15 minutes by these dedicated interceptors?

[Sinti]

11. Your lack of willingness to actually read the link provided does not

constitute a lack of proof on my part. Read the paper... they didn't scramble from Montana and North Dakota to intercept planes incoming over water. If you prefer not to read it, don't demand proof that's already been given.

What on earth do you think the exercise they were having that day was about, or did that not happen either?

[hack89]

12. The Artic is to the north of Montana and North Dakota.

the favorite route for Soviet bombers. Why do you think most of our bomber bases were in the north during the cold war?

Your post does not prove routine intercepts over the US landmass. If they were common, why does your link argue that the US had no need for a dedicated air interceptor force? The entire underlying theme of that document is that with the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was no need for a dedicated air force force because there was no threat to justify its existence. It tells me that they were looking outwards.

I never said that the AF didn't have contingencies for hijackings - I said that they never routinely intercepted planes overland. Especially for transponders that stop working.

You would think that with all these air force fighter zooming around intercepting airliners, there would be a news paper account or two.

And I am still curious about your views on Payne Stewart.

[Sinti]

13. You said, any intercepts for any reason at all

Here is the quote if you don't care to read your own post.

"no one has ever shown in this forum that there have been
any intercepts for any reason at all over the continental US
in the past 20 years or so."

I said, here ya go - there have been interceptors scrambled
1,518 times in four years.  That's more than one a day BTW. 
And the other link specifically states that they were
"unidentified aircraft" scrambled for 129 times in 2
years by WADs.  I don't know about "airliners," but
plane interceptions are pretty commonplace. US airliners were
not frequent hijack targets in the past IIRC, but I'm sure the
military had a contingency for such things.  I mean, come on,
this is the military they have a contingency for if Canada
attacks.  Actually, it would be much more likely to make news
if NORAD doesn't do their job.


They were not trying to get rid the air sovereignty mission,
they wanted to draw down,. i.e., save money - use less men and
machines.

From the GAO report.


"We are not recommending that all capability to protect
U.S. airspace be
eliminated. We agree with the Chairman’s recommendations to
assign the
mission to existing Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps
general-purpose
and training squadrons and eliminate or sharply reduce the
dedicated
forces currently associated with continental air
defense..."

*snip*

"NORAD plans to reduce the number of alert sites in the
continental United
States to 14 and provide 28 aircraft for the day-to-day
peacetime air
sovereignty mission. Each alert site will have two fighters,
and their crews
will be on 24-hour duty and ready to scramble within 5
minutes."


Here is part of a table within the document defining how many
from where, and how many were drug-related.

Scramble Activity by Air Defense Units and Alert Sites,
1989-92

Air defense unit         Total number          Number Drug
Related
Atlantic City, N.J.            82                       14
Burlington, Vt.                 6                        2
Langley Air Force Base, Va.    52                        0 
Duluth, Minn.                   0                        0 
Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla.   57                        6 
Ellington, Tex.               158                       10 
Holloman AF Base, N. Mex.      41                        5 
Fargo, N. Dak.                  0                        0 
Kingsley AF Base, Oreg.        49                        0 
Fresno, Calif.                 88                        1 
Castle AF Base, Calif.          3                        0 
George AF Base, Calif.         76                        1 
March AF Base, Calif.          15                        0 
Great Falls. Mont.              4                        4 
Davis-Monthan AF Base, Ariz.   62                        8 
Jacksonville, Fla.             64                        4 
Homestead AF Base. Fla.       270                       24 
Key West, Fla.                 15                        2 
Niagara Falls, N.Y.             0                        0 
Charleston, SC.                40                        1 
Otis, Mass.                    70                        7 
Bangor, Maine                  32                        1 
Loring AF Base, Maine          22                        5 
New Orleans, La.               84                        7 
Portland, Orea.                33                        2 
McChord AF Base. Wash.         32                        0 
Selfridge, Mich.                0                        0 
Sevmour Johnson AF Base. NC.   52                        2 
Elmendorf AF Base, Alaska     111                        0 

                Total       1,518         Drug Related  106 


As far as Payne Stewart goes, I think it was a sad event, and
has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.  They
knew who the plane was, and that it was off course, it was not
a threat.



NORAD didn't scramble because of the exercises going on, it's
obvious when you listen to the tapes.  Not because it wasn't a
major part of their mission, or they had no experience with
it.  There were so many decoys and so much noise going on they
couldn't see the real from the pretend.  I feel badly for
them, I bet a lot of those guys have substantial guilty
feelings for not realizing what was going on.  They shouldn't,
it wasn't really their fault, but human beings tend to react
that way.

[hack89]

14. And what does the phrase "continental US" mean to you?

to me it means "overland". Those interceptions were not over land. No ADIZ no interceptions. The fighters took off from American soil and intercepted planes in international airspace approaching US airspace. They have also intercepted drug runners. They don't intercept airliners over US soil that lose transponders.

I understand there were 1500 intercepts - I am not questioning that fact. I am simply saying you cannot show that they were over US soil.

[Bryan Sacks]

15. are you hard of reading, Hack?

A direct quote:

"The sector is the Air National Guard organization responsible for the air sovereignty of the western 63% of the continental United States. More than 300 Washington Air National Guard members at WADS have operational control of fighters on continuous alert, keeping track of 1.9 million square miles of airspace, from Texas to the Pacific Coast, across to North Dakota. WADS works directly with three alert bases, where pilots wait for the call to identify unknown aircraft that could be a threat to the nation’s air sovereignty. In the award-judging period from May 15, 1996 to May 14, 1998, the sector "scrambled" jets 129 times to identify these "unknown riders"."

'In the sector', get it?

The sector between Texas and the Pacific Coast, across to North Dakota What part of that is international air space?

If you have some reason for believing that those 129 intercepts were not over US soil, you have not shown it. In fact, there is no indication that the intercepts occurred anywhere other than the 'continental United States', regardless of where the planes came from.

The quote does not say that only the BORDERS are patrolled; in fact it says specifically that the 1.9 million miles of US soil is patrolled. If you are not concerned with intercepting planes that originate domestically, why patrol the interior?

If someone shows I am in error here, I'll admit it. I'd like to see you admit you are almost certainly in error here (breath not held).

[hack89]

17. It is the international border ...

From Texas west to CA, north to WA and then east to ND. The ADIZ (their sector) are anchored on that border and face out from the US. Those ADIZ encompass 1.9 million miles of air space. Now does it make sense?

Notice the phrase "air sovereignty"? How does that encompass lost domestic airliners that lose their transponders (remember the OP?)?

[Bryan Sacks]

18. The Chinese proverb is apt here. . .

You cannot wake a man who pretends to be asleep.

[hack89]

19. I see ... no answer, just proverbs..

If you want to believe that armed jet fighters were routinely intercepting airliners in the most crowded air space in the world and there was never an accident or close call, just go ahead.

Just consider one question: why would the defense of the US involve looking inwards?

[Sinti]

16. I guess there are none so blind as those who will not see

It's really not worth the time. Have a nice life. :eyes:

[hack89]

20. I am sorry I can't make it any clearer to you ...

the key is the ADIZs - once you understand those it will become clear to you.

With that I suggest we end this thread as it is clear you have made up your mind.

Have a good night.

[greyl]

26. kick nt

[screembloodymurder]

28. I'd like to turn your transponder off

who do you work for?

[hack89]

29. Well, you can't ...

so you can either get over it or ignore me. I could care less.

[Jazz2006]

34. Sinti, you seem convinced

that some or many of those intercepts you cite were over land inside the continental U.S., so why don't you just provide a single, straightforward example of one to hack89 and be done with it?

Rather than just "claim" that to be the case, why not provide evidence of it via a single, clear example?

[John Q. Citizen]

23. Yep. They scrambled aircraft that don't respond to a control tower

or fly off course. They have to. The whole point of haveing air traffic control is so planes don't run into each other. If they didn't check out an off course non responsive aircraft, why would anyone bother?

Why have "Air Traffic Control" if they don't exert control?

Small planes large planes anyone would just fly anywhere they wanted to.

It would be like having a speed limit and no traffic cops. Everyone would ignor it.

So they scramble a jet and the jet escorts them down.

There were 67 intercepts in the US from 2000 to May 2001.

[Bushwick Bill]

30. Kick and a question.

OK, I flipped through the Popular Mechanics book. They claim the only civilian intercept over the continental U.S. from the Cold War to 9/11 was Payne Stewart's plane. Is this true? If so, I throw out all of my intercept arguments.

[Sinti]

33. You can read my post 13 in this thread. 1,518 intercepts in '89-92 n/t

[Jazz2006]

35. None of which have yet been shown to be

intercepts of civilian airplanes over land in the continental U.S.

[AZCat]

32. Planes do pretty much fly wherever they want to.

With the exception of certain air spaces, private pilots have a great deal of freedom to go wherever they want. They even occasionally blunder into restricted air spaces and can wreak serious havok if they aren't noticed by ATC or if they aren't responsive to instructions from the ATC.

[LARED]

7. I doubt that turning off a transponder should trigger an

immediate militarty response. Transponders are not required for all aircraft in all airspace.

See here

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/5EE8F0240FD4DD3986256A6900532C8A?OpenDocument

[John Q. Citizen]

21. After an airliner with their transponder disabled

hit the tower and another airliner with their transponde disabled hit the other tower, it would seem prudent to me to check out other airliners who turned off their transponders. ya think?

[LARED]

22. I agree, if it is possible to

know what radar blip is supposed to have a transponder. Would an ATC be able to check something like that quickly? I don't know, do you?

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Not on 9/11 maybe, with our military inserting false

radar blips all over the place.

You know "Phantom Planes."

"Isn't that convenient?" -The Church Lady


So who do you think ordered the exercises for 9/11 and switched dates for an exercise normally held in Oct to 9/11 which resulted in even more exercises on 9/11?

That was the original OP's query

Who done it?

[Jara sang]

25. Actually the wargames wouldn't have been "top secret".

Vigilant Guardian, Vigilant Warrior, and Northern Guardian had been played out in '99 and '00. They advertise them on the combatant command websites.

[vincent_vega_lives]

27. Ask em

http://www.norad.mil

[BootinUp]

31. There are plenty of Arab pilots to explain

how the transponders and any other beacons work on these planes to the hijackers.

As far as a scheduling conspiracy on the war games, I give that less probability than me getting hit by a bolt of lightning before I finish this post.

[Jazz2006]

36. kick n/t

just because

[Generator]

37. Questions, always the questions!

If only someone in power asked them. Exactly-who, and how often?

Here it says that they happened 4 times (or maybe 2 times)a year prior to 9/11 for 4 days.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm

~Until Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD conducted four major exercises a year. Most included a hijack scenario, but not all of those involved planes as weapons. Since the attacks, NORAD has conducted more than 100 exercises, all with mock hijackings.~

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

Vigilant Guardian is described as being held annually, and is one of NORAD’s four major annual exercises. However, another report says it takes place semi-annually.

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyNjMmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY0NTk1MDUmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk5

Great article from the timeline.
~
NORAD confirmed it had only eight fighters on the East Coast for emergency scrambles on Sept. 11. Throughout Canada and the United States, including Alaska, NORAD had 20 fighters on alert - armed, fueled up, and ready to fly in minutes. Four years earlier, NORAD could count on having 175 jets ready to scramble, including two on the tarmac at Atlantic City's airport.

With the New Jersey Air National Guard's 17 F-16s out of the picture on Sept. 11, the commission is trying to assess why the Pentagon left what seems to be a yawning gap in the midsection of its air defenses on the East Coast - a gap with New York City at the center.
~
As always, we will be given answers and then answers that conflict with those answers. The military and this governemnt, essentially answer to no one. It does seem like 9/11 was a very lucky day for the terrorists.