Our man in the territories

[pelsar]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/580935.html

A soldier in uniform told Yavin that the Hebron settlers were inciting him to shoot and kill Palestinian children. Activist Noam Federman and his wife tell him on camera that an ultimatum has to be presented to the Arab residents of Hebron: Either they leave the country immediately, or the Israel Air Force will bomb their homes. Not far from their home, Yavin filmed a bit of graffiti on a wall: "Arabs to the crematoria." A Border Policeman, a muscular, tough-looking guy, says in a heavy Russian accent, "I am only following orders, I do what I am told." Yavin asserts: "We simply do not see the Palestinians as human beings."


........Yavin, though, also tries to jettison the superficial thesis that pins all the blame on the settlers themselves. In his film, too, they are the "masters of the land"; they issue orders to the army and the army obeys. But Yavin's series shows that the whole society is to blame for the injustices of the occupation and also for the war crimes it has entailed. "We cluck our tongues and move on to the gossip columns," he says.

How many of the settlers are like this versus those that moved out for "quality of life"?..I have no idea, but it does seem that a whole generation has been brought up out there with a very different set of values that I have, or that my kids have....but never the less
and I am part of this, i have an active part.....I find myself defending ideals and people that i disgree with because I have even less confidence in the "other side". My greatest wish, far stronger than an "lefty, progressive can ever hope to feel" is the palestenains make a "go of it in Gaza. Show me that they can live with us as neighbors, accept us here, ignore their own purveyors of hate that span the globe that urge them to hate us, boycott us, and kill us.....

i'm willing to pray to any god if she would make it come true

[Jack Rabbit]

1. We have a similar problem here

(I)t does seem that a whole generation has been brought up out there with a very different set of values that I have, or that my kids have.

Israel was founded to be a haven from persecution for Jews, not a vehicle to persecute Arabs.

We Americans, too, have in our country a number of people who entertain very misguided ideas about the principles on which the nation was founded. They assert that the American separation of church and state is a satanic myth, even though I can find two clauses in the Constitution that separate church and state. They tell us that Senate filibusters are unconstitutional, although the Constitution gives each house of Congress the right to make its own rules and the filibuster has been part of the Senate's for over 200 years. In the name of freedom, they have come to defend torture and police state tactics. They tell us that our leader was anointed by God, so it doesn't really matter to them that rational people can point to facts that call into question whether he was chosen by the voters.

And yet these people are as American as I am. I can't threaten them with life behind barbed wire (as some of them do me). To be a true American, I must not threaten but persuade enough of them to stop sending people like Frist and DeLay to Congress and to turn against Bush and his regime of war criminals.

This is a very pessimistic piece. The "Zionism of the settlements" is not the Zionism of equal rights. It cannot be. The 1967 war is not what made Israelis into "brutal conquerors"; that event came ten years later when Prime Minister Begin, who apparently didn't know how to read a map, declared the territories "integral part(s) of Israel" and opened them for settlements. It didn't seem to concern Begin that the territories were already inhabited by people who he knew full well would never for a variety of reasons accept the idea that they are Israelis or that the land beneath their feet was an integral part of a Jewish state. It was a formula for disaster in a situation that was already bad. Begin should have known that Israeli settlements could be built in the West Bank and Gaza only with a high level of violence and repression against the Palestinian people.

Resolution 242 is a formula for peace, but it rests on the promise that land will be returned to the Arabs. Begin's declaration and subsequent settlement policy shattered that promise. One way or another, that promise must be put back together.

However, many Israelis in the settlements have a different idea of Zionism, and it is not a Zionism of equality.

How many of the settlers are like this versus those that moved out for "quality of life"?..I have no idea . . .

Yet, Mr. Pelsar, they are as Israeli as you. However much they may see it otherwise, you live in a Jewish democracy. You cannot threaten, you must persuade enough Israelis that these people are wrong.

But your situation is even less comfortable than ours. If Americans with a more traditional view of the Constitution win out, our Christian fundamentalists will still worship as they please, no woman will be forced to terminate an unwanted pregnancy against her will and, while their children may be taught a scientific theory in school that contradicts any literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis, they will be free to tell their children what they think is right. I wouldn't have it any other way.

The choices that face Israelis aren't so easy. In the end, the settlers will be dragged from Hebron kicking and screaming back to Israel. I'll see the images in America and feel a great discomfort at people being taken from their homes. But it wouldn't be the outrage I would feel if Palestinians in Hebron were marched to the Allenby Bridge at gunpoint and told to keep moving. Or if great numbers of them were murdered in the streets and in their homes. Or if annexation becomes more formal and no Palestinian on the West Bank could ever again feel secure that his home will not be torn down to make way for housing in which he cannot live or a road on which he cannot travel. That is the dark side of the vision of the Zionism of the settlements.

It is no wonder that Channel 1 (the state television station, with which Yavin has been identified for almost 40 years) refused to broadcast the series. Instead, it will be broadcast starting next Tuesday as the swan song of Telad on Channel 2: Having failed to win the tender for a renewed franchise, Telad can allow itself to end its term with something real.

Unfortunately, that also sounds like a problem we have in America. But you and I have been over that before.

[pelsar]

2. why gaza is so important....

its not really important what the politicians have in mind after gaza. IF gaza works, the palestenians go about making working state based on some form of democratic values, the whole "zionist settler enterprise will fall apart. For the settlers is may be gods wish or whatever, for the rest of us, the majority its a physical security issue. Take away the fear of a palestenain state that threatens us daily and the whole support structure for the settlers falls apart, but the proof lies through Gaza, succeed there and we will drag the settlers screaming from the homes in Hebron if need be......the palestenians and us are binded at the hip, what each of us does, affects the other. As we pull out of gaza, its now their turn.....

I wonder if those who are so "pro peace" understand that the success of gaza is the key?...I dont read much about it in the international press.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. I agree that it is important

Palestinian success in Gaza will make it a lot easier for Israelis such as you to persuade other Israelis that the occupation can end.

Nevertheless, I still maintain (as I have in this forum for three years) that there are two aspects to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza: security and territorial expansion. I am fully sympathetic to the Israelis in the former and fully sympathetic to the Palestinians in the latter.

The Israelis could dismantle the settlements and still maintain a military occupation. I think that would be good policy. The settlements will have to be dismantled anyway, so why not just do it? That would put Israel in a stronger position politically. The occupation then would be simply about security and no other issue would be complicating it. The government could then say that as soon as a credible Palestinian leadership agrees to a non-aggression pact with Israel, the occupation can and will end.

And, passionate advocate of Palestinian rights that I am, I don't think it is reasonable to expect the Israelis to withdraw from the territories until there is such a pact.

[pelsar]

4. if gaza works...

i wont have to persuade anyone....we're the majority, it will simply be obvious. Though your idea is "nice" in principle the realities of our politics make it impossible. Religion is too embedded in our political life.....its something we've learned to accept about palestenian politics as well. Political realities have to be accepted in all their short comings otherwise nothing will move at all.

[Jack Rabbit]

5. I understand that

And you're right, it is both sides.

Both sides will have to marginalize their extremists. There's no way around that.