Israeli troops kill 2 teens near Ramallah

[lindsayg]

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050504-052730-4738r.htm

Gaza, Gaza, May. 4 (UPI) -- Israeli troops shot and killed two Palestinian teenagers Wednesday in Deir Lekia, west of Ramallah in the West Bank, Palestinian medics said.

The incident occurred after Palestinian youths clashed with Israel Defense Forces at a separation fence work site during the day, the Ha'aretz news service reported. When about 200 youths arrived at the scene Wednesday evening and began throwing rocks at troops. The soldiers responded by firing rubber bullets and tear g as, but later begin firing live ammunition into the air, Ha'aretz said.

[Guy_Montag]

1. It's ok, they're Palestinian

they don't really count.

[bennywhale]

2. Its not real murder

like the evil palastinians, its only an incident requiring a full inquiry

[drdon326]

3. Don't know all the facts....nor does anyone else here......

but I do know that now every palestinian teenager is now a potential death machine thanks to those friendly folks at hamas,IJ, AND Al-aqsa MURDERS brigade.

But no reason to bring up reality.

oh....btw...see...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1114568594963

[Darranar]

6. That is irrelevant. It does not make killing them justified. n/t

[drdon326]

7. And you know with absolute certainty that it wasnt justified ??

Sorry....the fact is that teenagers ( and as recently been shown,13 and even 12 year olds ) are now potential murderers. I dont know all the facts...and neither do you.

Try decrying the use of these children by hamas et al.

[Darranar]

8. All humans are potential murderers. That doesn't make...

indiscriminate fire legitimate.

No, I don't know for sure whether or not these killings were justified, but considering that only rocks were being thrown, it seems highly likely that they were not.

[drdon326]

9. On your various trips to Israel.....

have you spoken to many teenage terrorists regarding why they decided to try to kill as many jews as possible ?

[Violet_Crumble]

10. So every Israeli settler is a potential Baruch Goldstein death machine?

Uh, if you say so, but it no more works for me than saying every Palestinian teenager is a potential Baruch Goldstein. The only reason that potential is pointed out is to dehumanise humans and to make their deaths justifiable under just about every circumstance...


Now for a contrast in reaction, from left-wing Israelis...

Hundreds rally in TA against IDF killing of 2 Palestinian teens

Hundreds of left-wing protesters demonstrated in Tel Aviv on Thursday evening against the Israel Defense Forces' killing Wednesday of two Palestinian youths in the West Bank.

The two teenagers were shot dead near the village of Beit Likia, west of Ramallah, during a protest against the construction of the separation fence in the area.

Thursday's protest started opposite the Defense Ministry's Kirya compound in Tel Aviv and from there demonstrators walked to Likud Party headquarters on King George Street. Some 200-300 people attended the rally.


<snip>

Earliers Thursday, IDF Central Command chief Yair Naveh suspended a senior Combat Engineering Corps officer who commanded the force that shot dead the two Palestinians.

Naveh said the conduct of the deputy company commander was defined as "unreasonable."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/572451.html

WTF??? Where does he get off saying it's unreasonable??? Doesn't he realise that no-one really knows what happened and after all, all Palestinian teens are potential suicide bombers!?!?!?!?

Violet...

[thebigidea]

21. since when do you need facts to justify death?

[Colorado Blue]

4. Here is a link to Ha aretz, has more information about

what actually happened:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/572451.html

snip

Oudai A'asi, 14, and his 15-year-old cousin Kamal A'asi, both from the West Bank village of Beit Lakia, were shot dead while throwing stones together with dozens of other protestors at a separation fence work site next to a village north of Highway 443.

Around 6 P.M., some 200 youths arrived on the scene and began throwing rocks at bulldozers and at the five soldiers who arrived on the scene in a jeep.

Palestinians on the scene said the soldiers initially opened fire with rubber bullets and tear gas grenades and at a certain point began firing live ammunition in the air.

snip

Also there have been demonstrations about this.

[Scurrilous]

5. More:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3081405,00.html

IDF officer suspended over shooting

Two Palestinian boys killed by IDF Wednesday; initial investigation finds fault with officer’s conduct

<snip>

"IDF Central Command Chief Yair Naveh has suspended the officer who commanded an IDF company during a clash that resulted in the killing of two Palestinian boys Wednesday

The officer, who serves as the company’s deputy commander, was suspended after an initial investigation revealed a series of faults in his handling of the incident."

<snip>

"Palestinian sources accused soldiers of holding up the ambulance that tried to rush the wounded boys to a Ramallah hospital. They claimed this denied the 14- and 15-year-old casualties of timely medical attention."

<snip>

"A local ambulance first transferred the injured to a clinic in a neighboring village. However, when doctors failed to save them, the ambulance crew tried to leave the village and were detained by soldiers, Palestinians claimed.

They said that it was during this long wait that the teens’ condition deteriorated. By the time the ambulance reached the hospital, the two were pronounced dead, Palestinians said."

[Djinn]

11. ah well they had rocks you see

most self defence laws would say that kids throwing rocks (not school bags filled with bombs or baby sisters wrapped in explosives drbdon) can not be reasonably met with gunfire, particularly if the target of the rocks are trained, armed soldiers, but those devious murderous Palestinian kids have probably found a way to make rocks explosive and quite possibly had them filled with the AIDS virus :eyes:

Don - next time you post a story about settlers getting killed remind me post a response pointing out that we don't know the full story and we do know that many settlers have expressed their desire to see all of Eretz Israel Jewish, are armed and have regularly killed, beaten and intimidated Palestinian kids - some how I don't think you'll be so circumspect then though

[pelsar]

12. rocks...

rocks arent just "thrown" via ones arms...they are thrown via slingshots.....the velocity is enough to kill.

that said i have never read when any reporter noted the difference, hence we dont know what was the actual situation.

and again, I will not judge what is not known, nor should anybody else..... yet having 200 people coming at you with some throw/slinging rocks is a very scary situation...but then its one of those things where you have to have been to know just how frightening it is. (yes its frightening even if your armed since whatever you do is a judgement call and it will be "second guessed" by those who arent present, and the decisions made are the most difficult....)

[drdon326]

13. Oh, what the hell do you know !!

obviously, there are people here who have such VAST experience having a bunch of people with rocks (and who knows what other weapons) attacking them that THEY know exactly how to handle the situation.


/SARCASM


Armchair military ethicists :eyes:.....sheeesh

[Djinn]

15. ever lived under an occupation don?

if not then I suggest you stop criticising any and all Palestinian reactions - after all what would you know?


Armchair resistance ethicists .....sheeesh

[drdon326]

16. lol

thank you for your advice and concern.

:rofl:

[Djinn]

17. anytime don

I'm used to helping the developmentally challenged - I'm usually paid for it but in your case I'll make an exception

Mods - while this might technically breach forum rules I'm sure don has a robust sense of humour - given what he normally finds amusing after all - and can take it like a man

[drdon326]

18. No reason to delete.

I know you reeeeally like me, djinn.


no problem.

[Djinn]

19. well I'm half way through a bottle of

Margaret River chardonnay so I guess anything's possible

[pelsar]

20. some of us

have been in those situations and some of us havent....and some of us actually know how confusing and tense it can be.........

and we dont make "light" of it nor assume that we know exactly what to do...nor do we judge so quickly...but your right, it comes from experience.

[Djinn]

14. maybe the IDF could lay down the guns

dismantle the helicopters, put the dozers to more productive use - after all with all the available lethal rocks why bother with the expensive hardware, come to think of it my family could make a mint in the new "rock" arms race - bring it on :rofl:

[Darranar]

22. How many Israeli soldiers have died from rock-throwing? n/t

[drdon326]

23. Please......

better question..... how many israels soldiers have died from GUNMAN HIDING IN A BUNCH OF ROCK-THROWERS ?

[Darranar]

24. Fine. I'd like to hear an answer to that one too. n/t

[drdon326]

25. I was asking you.

abd given your VAST expierence in dealing with groups of people throwing rocks , often with gunman hiding in that group , I figured you would know.

[Colorado Blue]

29. I think people are routinely killed by rocks. Isn't that the

preferred method of dealing with women who commit adultery?

I don't think mobs, in any case, can be dismissed as non-threatening. I've been in them, in peace demonstrations gone awry. In one case, people who had been demonstrating peacefully all of a sudden took off and went looting. Another time a group ran, in the dark, full tilt toward the railway tracks and almost got creamed by the express. It was terrifying - and just about impossible to control.

People in mobs can be extremely dangerous, to themselves and to others.

Certainly, mob violence makes ordinary life impossible for people anywhere near them. This is certainly NOT a small problem. Who are we to say, living in the nice safe world over here, exactly what should be done under given conditions?

[pelsar]

30. rock throwers...

nobody killed by rock throwers..but many injured.......one reason being the protective gear worn, but that does not diminish the danger nor the fear when 200 people approach you and some are throwing/slinging rocks

.....as far as shooters being in "behind" the rock throwers....once it was prevalent and the standard operating procedure.....no longer. Still that aspect still remains a standard possibility.

[Resolution_242]

28. Child Sacrifice, Palestinian Style

Child Sacrifice, Palestinian Style

by Reuven Koret
November 13, 2002
Capmag

Summary: Golda Meir, a former Prime Minister of Israel, once said: "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." Tragically, that day seems far, far off. When the Palestinians started sacrificing their own sons and daughters as a matter of policy, as a sacred ritual, they sacrificed their own future as a people and immolated their basic human rights.

Israel is criticized for alleged insensitivity to the risks of casualties among civilians, especially children, during counter-terrorist missions. But the tragedy of unintended casualties from justified military actions cannot be compared to a society's deliberate abuse of its children as explosive devices.

Even in the first Intifada, the media glorified "children of the stones" as latter-day "Davids" struggling against the Israeli "Goliath." Young Palestinians, armed with slings and stones, were on the front lines of the struggle against "occupation." Behind them, often, stood Palestinian gunmen, sniping at Israeli troops from behind these human shields. The photographers focused, not surprisingly, on the children.

But what are we to make of the phenomenon of child martyrdom that has swept Palestinian society and become an essential core value of all social strata? In schools, on television, and in family homes, an entire society glorifies the martyr, celebrating those who die to kill Israelis and secure a place in a Paradise filled with waiting virgins.

Mothers appear with their sons in videos recorded before they go on suicide missions, praising their child's dedication to die in Allah's name. After the missions, the mothers ululate in pride for their dead Jew-killing children, saying that they brought children into the world for just this purpose. Fathers proudly claim having trained their sons for such missions, and pledge to send their remaining children to become martyrs, too...."

http://capmag.com/article.asp?id=2110

[Resolution_242]

26. From Operation S.I.C.K. (Stop Inciting Children to Kill)

From Operation S.I.C.K. (Stop Inciting Children to Kill)

Child Abuse

By Martin Fletcher, NBC NEWS, Tuesday, May 08, 2001

The Palestinians are calling on the youngest to join the battle, and using a stunning tactic: commercials on Palestinian TV asking children, “Drop your toys. Pick up rocks.”

The video shows a child dropping his toy and young boys throwing stones, even using actors to recreate the most famous image of the uprising, one that shocked the world: 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura dying in his father's arms, caught in a hail of Israeli bullets.

The commercial shows Mohammed in paradise, urging other children to "Follow him." The shot of al-Dura slumped against his father shifts to an image of the boy running through a sunlit field in "paradise" where he then greets other boys who sit together in the green grass.

At Mohammed's school in Gaza today, the daily prayer followed by a call to arms. "Are you afraid?" the teacher shouts "No," they answer. And then, "We ask Allah to destroy the Jews," rows of children in a schoolyard shout in unison.

Mohammed's desk is now a shrine, complete with his photograph, a PLO flag and flowers. The teacher asks, "Where is Mohammed?" The children answer, "Paradise!"

And in English class, they learned a new phrase today.

TEACHER: "The Israeli army killed our friend. Shame on them!"

CHILDREN (in unison): "Shame on them!"

Already, young boys are learning how to fight. Summer camp teaches how to resist the Israelis. But now they are being taught not to fear death. The greatest glory, they are told, is to be a martyr.

But what does it mean to teach children not to fear death? A coalition of American paediatricians, DOCS (Doctors Opposed to Child Sacrifice) says that official PA encouragement of children to participate in violence against Israel is "societal child abuse." DOCS founder Dr. Pejman Salimpour said, "Adults, governments, and media outlets that encourage young children to participate in violence to further their own political agenda are practicing a form of societal child abuse..." DOCS called on the PA to halt broadcasts that glorify martyrdom.

Dr. Salimpour and Mr. Fletcher deserve thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious since Arafat launched the latest war on Israel: children who should have been protected have been cynically and abusively manipulated, robbed not only of their childhoods, but of their humanity, and sometimes of their lives. And by extension, it will become impossible for them to ever find a way to accept the legitimacy of Israel, or of Jews living in the Middle East, ensuring that the conflict runs at least one more generation.

http://www.operationsick.com/articles/20010508_childabuse.asp

[Resolution_242]

27. Abomination: The Sacrificing of Children

Abomination: The Sacrificing of Children
Emanuel Winston
17 July 2001


"....Today, within the tribes of Ishmael, the concept of Human Sacrifice has once again risen. It is being explained away as mandated by Koranic Law by radical Islamists who deliberately distort the meaning in order to make war.
Now there are high priest cults of Islamists who call for their children to make their way to a warriors’ heaven by killing the Jews who dared to bring the one G-d with all of His Laws describing what humankind was no longer permitted to do and what they must do.

Today one has high priests of Islam who are both clerics and political leaders. The words spoken in the Mosques are the same spoken by Yassir Arafat. They are the same.

Arafat has time and again called for the sacrifice of the children for the glory of his miscellaneous Arabs now called Palestinians. Arafat urges the parents to offer up their children as a sacrifice his great "Intifada." In the Mosques the ‘Imans’ (priests) stir the parents to send their children to kill the Jews - as an honor.

Arafat is not unique in the Arab culture to allow women and children to be used as a human shield. Recall that it was the Ayatollah Khomeini who gave children slips of paper as their ticket to a warrior’s heaven to run across the minefields to clear them for the advancing Iranian troops fighting Iraq.

Recall that Egypt frequently places its Triple A (Anti-Aircraft Artillery) on roofs of hospitals and schools, assuming Israeli aircraft would not wish to hit those targets. They also placed missile launchers in school yards for much the same reasons. When hit, they cried to the world that Israel was targeting civilians..."

http://www.tzemach.org/fyi/docs/winston/july17-01.htm