Likud Appealing to Peace Now for Help

[denverbill]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=78284

The Likud government has asked leftist groups to help in a massive campaign aimed at overcoming strong American non-Jewish and Jewish opposition to the disengagement plan.

Danny Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States, will participate Monday in a Peace Now-sponsored forum on Capitol Hill. Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is scheduled to deliver the keynote speech at the June annual dinner of the Israel Policy Forum, a group that was formed to support the Labor Party's Oslo 2 policy.

These two events are part of an intensive campaign aimed at counteracting opposition to the disengagement plan by evangelical Christians and a large number of Jews.

Israeli diplomats in the U.S. are under orders to meet with as many Jewish organizations and synagogues as possible and urge them not to "second-guess the government of Israel or the Israeli citizens," according to Aryeh Mekel, Israel's consul general in New York. "This is the number one priority on the agenda of the consulates," he added.

<snip>

Am I in bizarro-world this morning?

[bemildred]

1. Nothing is too surreal.

The interesting question is why is the Israeli Government,
after decades of aggressive and expansionist policy, reversing
course now?

[prodigal_green]

4. because people are tired of the destruction. eom

[bemildred]

5. They liked it before? nt

[denverbill]

6. Well, the Likud Party is what's changed.

After all, the Likud pretty much had it's strongest support from the extreme-right-wing zealots like the one who assassinated Rabin and who for years had wanted to claim all of occupied Israel for Israel. Sharon was one of the biggest supporters of that idea.

It's kinda funny that evangelicals (who pretty much blame Jews for Jesus death and think they are following a false god and only want Israel to expand so it can be utterly destroyed in Armageddon) and extreme-right-wing Israel orthodox Jews are now best buddies, and Sharon is now a 'peace-nik'.

[bemildred]

9. One should no confuse the milling around of the sheep

with the doings of the Shepard. The problem here would seem
to be that Likud does not want to go along with Jabba's change
of course.

[Coastie for Truth]

7. Because Intel canceled the new Si fab

and several other "high tech" companies have announced plans to "suspend" or "cancel" planned expansions in the "area" (including Egypt and Jordan and - hopefully - the Palestinian State when it comes into being). I am not talking mineral extraction -- I am talking Information Technology and BioTech.

It is all about investment and jobs going to India and China instead of Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan.

[bemildred]

10. At least a coherent and credible explanation.

Although I am not convinced that is all there is to it.
Certainly it would weigh in the decision.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. That's the buzz in

Los Gatos, and at Mission College Rd and Montague Expressway in Santa Clara, and Keily and US 101 in Sunnyvale, and even at Old Orchard Rd in Armonk NY.

[bemildred]

15. I believe you, I'm not convinced about the buzz.

Everybody thinks the world revolves around them,
but it doesn't.

[Colorado Blue]

12. Ummmm - perhaps because the Palestinians now have a

leader who is actively interested in pursuing peace, rather than the destruction of Israel?

Also, relations with several Arab nations have been cemented and the prospects for lasting peace are far better than they were even a few years ago.

I think this is a powerful sign that Israel is willing to tick off some of its most loyal supporters in order to promote the peace process and do justice by the Palestinian people. One should be supportive, not sarcastic. It is a courageous move that could cost Israel dearly.

As far as the troubles of the past few decades - I KNOW you Doubting Thomases haven't forgotten all the wars and terrorism - which were hardly one-sided - RIGHT?

[bemildred]

13. This move started quite a while before Arafat went to the great beyond. nt

[Colorado Blue]

18. And the terrorist attacks continued. As long as Arafat was

in power the peace movement was severely hampered. Arafat was handed statehood on a silver platter by no less than President Clinton, WITH the good wishes and hopes of Israel, and he rejected it.

It is interesting to me that you agree by implication, the destruction of Israel HAD been on the table up until a few years before Arafat's death. I'm glad this is here in black and white - because only an understanding of this policy, an implacable will to destroy Israel rather than to make peace and create a Palestinian state, truly explains the agony of the I/P situation. By no means, I must comment, has the desire to destroy Israel completely left the discourse of the M.E. It is certainly a continuing pillar of certain armed militias, including the one most likely responsible for the recent bombing in Tel Aviv.

As far as the majoriy of the Palestinian people is concerned, however, perhaps the long tragedy of the intifada was last act in a very dark and bloody play in the Israel/Palestinian theatre. I truly, truly hope so. And I hope people of good will ALL join hands to work for a better future in the Middle East.

Having said that - were peace to break out today, and white doves fly from the Temple Mount, the problems of the greater Middle East would still exist. They must be acknowledged and dealt with as they are - separate from and not caused by - the Israeli/Arab conflicts. These problems were centuries-long in the making and are indigenous to the region and to the conflicts between the region and the Western, industrialized world.

The shenanigans of the oil industry persist, as does the war and the dreadful terrorism in Iraq - outgrowths of that greater conflict and NOT of the I/P situation.

Similarly, there is great stress within the nations of Central Asia that border the M.E. region, related to oil but also to religious and social conflicts, and the desire by some to modernize and by others to go backwards. The Kurds remain a people without a home, threatening the stability of Turkey, Iraq and Iran, and other minority religious and ethnic groups across the region are frequently victimized. Women's issues, to my mind, present an enormous challenge. The muscle-flexing by the aggressive Shi'a group Hezbollah in Lebanon may be greeted by some with celebration but to others, within Lebanon, certainly in Syria, Israel and so on, is both interesting and disturbing. There is great stress between the fundamentalist Islamist groups and those who would direct their nations in a secular, democratic direction.

The tendency is to blame all the troubles of this complex and volatile region on Israel. That is both unfair and counterproductive.

[bemildred]

19. Blah blah blah blah .....

I agreed to nothing.

I was merely pointing out that for Arafat's demise to be a causative
factor in "Leave Gaza" policy, it would have to have happened before
the policy was promulgated, which is not the case.

It does seem likely that the current thaw is based in the replacement
of Arafat with Abbas, but I can assure you it is not being done
because Abbas is just a much nicer fellow than Arafat.

[Charles19]

20. I wouldn't even call it a thaw

Disengagement is public theater. Sharon knows how much of a monster he and Israel is starting to look like on the world stage. Europe is not playing there game and if he keeps down the same path they could even lose the US.

Disengagement is simply to derail the other movements out there or at least dramitically delay them while they keep grabbing more land and starving out the Palestinians.

Israel has not done one thing to promote any peace under Sharon. They have only promoted incitement.

[bemildred]

23. One can call it "thaw" and also "theater".

There is no contradiction. All politics is theater.

It seems clear to me that the policy of the Israeli government
has become much less aggressive both externally and internally
in the last five years, although the rhetoric remains strident.
I'm simply speculating about the thinking behind the change.

[Charles19]

38. I hope your right

I really think a softening by both sides could lead to good things and benefit both.

[simcha_6]

28. That's a bit harsh

Sharon sent his son to negotiate with the PA when Arafat was still alive, and he's cooperating somewhat with the PA now, instead of doing things unilaterally like originally planned.

That's incitement?

[Colorado Blue]

22. Out of curiosity, I'm wondering what it must be like to be

judgemental and sarcastic all the time. I've never been blessed with those particular attributes, so I'm interested in learned.

Shalom.

I have work to do, later.

[bemildred]

24. Nice talking to you. nt

[denverbill]

16. OK, I guess that explains why Sharon supported settlements til recently.

I was no big Arafat supporter, but I was certainly no Sharon supporter either. I hardly think you can blame Palestinians for resisting when Israeli Likudniks were actively stealing their land and building new settlements all over the occupied territories for their 'Greater Israel' project.

Yes there are still many Palestinians that think Israel has no right to exist, but there are also an awful lot of Evangelical Christians and ultra-orthodox Jews who would gladly do an ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories.

[Colorado Blue]

21. Indeed, there are some within Israel and outside, in the US

for example, who believe in the original, Biblical borders. There are military and economic reasons to want those larger parameters. The state of Israel IS difficult to defend, without the buffer zone provided by the West Bank, Golan and the border region in southern Lebanon. That is why Sharon is calling for help.

I think many people within Israel have changed too, in their growing understanding of and compassion for, the Arabian people. The war in Iraq is partially responsible for this, as was the intifada, and the death of Arafat followed by the election in the West Bank.

I know I have, as a supporter of Israel here in America, been growing more and more to wish the Palestinian state should evolve, and to see the people of the region as partners and not as threats.

Witnessing the devastation of Afghanistan and Iraq has made me humble - made me realize we are all so small in comparison to the force unleashed by Bush, so small in the overall power game being played by the oil industry and the big players in the geo-political game.

Sharon, as a politician who must respond to the wishes of his people, is reflecting the growing desire of Israelis and Jewish people around the world, to overcome the fears and losses of decades, and do right by the Palestinian people. We're all in this together, and all terribly small on this larger stage.

We hope the Palestinian people will continue to grow toward a fruitful and peaceful state and reject the temptation to return to the ways of the past, the terror and the unrest. It is all so pointless, and life is so terribly short and so terribly precious.

Now, I'm going to go water my little palm tree, the one that reminds me of the desert. It's standing bravely in a terracotta pot, waiting for the bold spring sun.

[simcha_6]

27. Because...

it used to be expansionist policy (taking jump-off terror bases like Gaza, areas like Golan heights, and building settlments) was the only way to defend Israel. Now, those policies don't work, so they're doing the peace way now, or will in one or two elections.

[bemildred]

30. So it's just a practical matter of doing whatever works at the time? nt

[Coastie for Truth]

31. Or a practical matter for all states in the region without oil

which means getting their economies going, stopping the near-universal brain drains, attracting investment (which means no "war risk premium" on ROI).

It's like "Governing a country" instead of "Leading a political movement." It's "stopping the death spiral into a Third World Country" for all sides.

[bemildred]

32. Yeah, that works. nt

[bemildred]

35. Like this here, say:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1305184

This kind of thing could be very motivating.

[bemildred]

44. Another reason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1305239&mesg_id=1305239

Despite the continuing high-volume rhetoric on this subject, it's
essentially over, Iran has the support of Russia and China and
the EU has given up on stopping "enrichment", and a military
"solution" is not feasible in the best of cases, let alone without
the cooperation of Russia, China, India, and the EU, to mention
a few.

[simcha_6]

36. Of course

Sharon's an a--. I don't think he's had a real change of heart about the settlers' "right" to be in Gaza. But with the Palestinian population growing, Israel's facing a demographic disaster when there's so many more Palestinians than Israelis (or possibly Israeli Jews- I'm not sure what the exact scenario they're talking about is.)

Sharon, I think, is an idealogue at heart, but Israeli commentary's been going on about the demographics of the Mideast, and Shin Bet, Israeli internal intel, is criticizing the occupation a lot, so he was forced to accept reality over ideology. I wish * would do the same in American affairs and security.

[bemildred]

39. OK.

I would disagree that the previous policies "worked", and I
have no opinion as to whether the present initiatives will work.

The only period I see where things "worked" was during the
Oslo process, which was somewhat unrealistic in various ways,
but everybody set things aside and worked together somewhat, and
things improved for a while. I think that is sort of a hint as
to where any solution lies. Any solution that does not work
for everybody - the necessities of life and a modicum of respect
and productive things to do - is not really a solution.

And I agree in general with your assessment of the reasons for
Jabba's "change of heart", it became clear that his previous
course was a road to nowhere. There is a certain irony, schadenfreude,
in watching him deal with his former "supporters".

[simcha_6]

40. Here's Irony

Before Oslo, relations between Israelis and Palestinians were a bit better (before the First Intifada, I mean.) One woman living in Gush Katif in Gaza was a strong voice for peaceful co-existence. She went to Gaza with the first wave of settlers, who were less ideological and more into developing security for Israel, which is what the first few settlments were for before the religous extremists hijacked them. She used to take her kids to a Palestinian dentist, go shopping in Palestinian markets, and have Palestinian friends. Relations only started to drop in the late eighties and early nineties.

Sad situation over there, huh?

[bemildred]

43. Not sure "irony" is the right word.

However it is true that there have always been large
numbers on both sides that were more than willing to get
along and work together for the common good, and the pity
is that the aggressive loonies have been able to call the
shots much of the time on both sides. All the political hay
seems to have been made by appeals to divisiveness and jingo
nationalism.

[Cocoa]

2. who is opposing disengagement?

what American groups is Likud worrying about?

[Coastie for Truth]

8. The ultra-right loonies

The groups that backed Kahane and praised Rabin's killer

[IndianaGreen]

42. and they have threatened to kill Sharon

How crazy can things get when someone like Sharon is preferable to the religious wackos.

:P

[prodigal_green]

3. the rapture right are anti-semetic

and I guess the Israelis are finally catching on to that fact. They (RR) should stay the hell out of Israeli affairs. The degree to which the chimpministration has all but ignored the Israeli/Palestinean crisis means everybody in this country ought to butt out.

The Rapture Right millenialists' heads will explode if there is peace in Israel/Palestine. Conflict there is their last best hope for the apocalypse. They will have to go through a "Great Disappointment" as did their forerunners in the mid-nineteenth century and Europeans circa 1000AD. Once that happens, we can resume rational thought. Disappointments, historically, have taken up to 16 years from the date of the END.

[simcha_6]

29. Oh, I think Israel knew they weren't real friends

But they figure that it's a strategic alliance for the time being. Kind of like us and Saudi Arabia.

[catastrophicsuccess]

11. File this one under

You reap what you sow...

[PATRICK]

17. What the planners in Israel should do

is step back and take a look at the apparent madness of where their considered(or domestic politics) policy is leading. When it looks like this and things paint crazy snapshots then it is probably way past time to admit that the clever guys have failed miserably and now it's all reaction and regret and crippled compromises.

Ever dealing with the likes of the neocons has so often been a fatally flawed pragmatic policy in the past that no exceptions should ever have been made, no "times are different" rationale ever used. Simply put. helping the dying oil dinosaur through Bushco was not a powerful desperate measure to stop the inevitable encirclement by Islam. It was another and crazier form of suicide if violence is, was always, the only option.

If they really think Bush taking Iran will still solve their problems they are still fatally enslaved to delusion. They could stop that particular madness this summer if the game is on,possibly. I doubt it enters the imagination of the Mossad even to try, any more than it entered the imagination of our INTELLIGENCE people that Bushco is and was the world's greatest single threat.

Taxpayers funded the failures of intelligence and leadership. Do the dead ask for refunds?

[Colorado Blue]

25. The Israelis are not the only ones who should be shaking

their heads. The residents of Bushco, Inc, i.e., WE, we who elected the assholes, need to go Holy Shit. And we need to start thinking very hard and very creatively, how we can get a grip on the oil industry and the multinationals in general. We're turning into the United States of Walmart and it sucking the life out of us. Small businesses can't get going, artists can't eat, now we've even got the FCC maybe telling cable watchers what they can watch?

It's disgusting. We're captive commercial watchers.

Beyond that, the Left needs to come up with some creative ideas. We are great at domestic policy but we suck on foreign policy. We are unable to grasp economic principles, we are judgemental, we do not want to get our hands dirty. Therefore we have ceded the foreign policy ground to the Republicans and to big business - whose products we happily guzzle.

We haven't had a good economic idea since the thirties.

Ideas, anyone? It simply is NOT enough to go, oh bad Israel. We need to think about the ebb and flow of scarce resources. We need to think about the true implications of globalization. We need to absorb what people like Ward Churchill have to say, and then we need to ask ourselves, ok, how the fuck do we run a complex global economy WITHOUT technocrats? Do we simply say, Oh bad Israel, and hooray insurgents in Iraq? Should the rest of world remain hyper-religious and undeveloped while we complain about the low minimum wage at home and shop at Walmart? Do we complain about the horrors unleashed by the oil industry, and then hop happily into our gasmobile?

I challenge the Left - START THINKING! CREATE! Sitting on the sidelines, while saying, the Mossad lacks imagination - it's beyond silly. The Mossad has had REAL challenges to contend with, as has the average Israeli citizen, beyond anything Americans can even, apparently, imagine.

Beyond that - I agree, attacking Iran would be madness - but that is not an Israeli desire. Weakening Iran is an American desire and if Iran indeed has nuclear weapons, it is a justifiable desire. I believe strongly in non-proliferation. I also do not believe liberating people by bombing them into rubble is right. Iran is PEOPLE, after all, and we should not even remotely consider hurting them.

But if we can somehow appeal to the secular, well-educated people in the Middle East and around the world, that is what we must do. The Islamization of the Middle East and the fundamentalist Christians here are scaring yours truly silly. We need to be thinking coolly and creatively to deal with global problems - economic, social and environmental problems, and we are getting all religious?

Descartes - where ARE you?

Meanwhile - I reiterate: the Democratic Party, and the Left in general, need to do more than simply complain about foreign affairs. We need IDEAS.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[simcha_6]

37. Right On!

Exactly, on the dot, accurate. Is there a separate forum for that. Productive Policy Planning and Implementation Forum? If not, we should start that.

Thank you for the excellent post.

:yourock:

[Colorado Blue]

41. I think we need a forum like that too!

[Yosie]

26. Compare Likud's "Network" with Peace Now's "Network" in the US

The Likud "network" is:

1. The Apocalyptic and Rapture Evangelicals (as distinguished from those Evangelicals who are comfortable with MLK Jr and Jimmie Carter)

2. The Neo-Cons.

3. The Hassidim.

Built on a "zero sum" model and definitely ephemeral.

The "Peace Now" network is stronger in the Left-Centrist and "Progressive" community.

They will stick with all of the people of the region to build stable communities and prosperous economies in the region - Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian, Egyptian.

A "win-win" model.

Unlike others - Sharon may have learned that a mid course correction is in everybody's interest.

[LeftistGorilla]

45. whoa...

aint that a bitch?