AG asked to probe 'racist' scholarship fund

[Violet_Crumble]

Yahad MK Zahava Gal-On has asked Attorney General Menachem Mazuz to review the legality of a Jewish Agency for Israel scholarship fund for students who have fallen victim to terror attacks due to what she calls its "racist" criteria.

The agency set up the fund two years ago, and since then has offered handsome university scholarships totaling nearly NIS 1 million to student terror victims. Only students who have served in the Israel Defense Forces or have completed some form of national service are eligible for the scholarship. As a result, only Jewish, not Arab, terror victims are actually entitled to the aid.

Gal-On said former attorney general Yitzhak Zamir had ruled that tuition fees may not be determined on the basis of military service.

"I am approaching you with a request to review whether the racist criteria for receiving the scholarship for student victims of terror constitute a breach of the law," Gal-On wrote to Mazuz.

"Terror does not distinguish between Jews and Arabs... Criteria based on military service discriminate between blood and blood, such that an Arab Israeli citizen who is studying at university and whose family members were hurt in a terrorist attack on a bus is not entitled to receive a scholarship," Gal-On said.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/536244.html

[UL_Approved]

1. A little different than the "no apology" threads we often see?

This seems a little more in step with human nature and transgressions than the "no apology for Zionism" crap that floats around the Israeli/Palestine Affairs forum.

Gotta keep it real, and this certainly speaks to the real nature of self-justified discrimination in that country.

The worst part of it is, this justifies anti-Semitism to many people in the world...

[pelsar]

2. its called maturing....

its part of a country "growing up".....how does it justify anti semitism when the govt of israel is attempting to fix a discriminatory practice against its arab citizens?...I though it was a good thing? something to commend the israeli govt for

[UL_Approved]

3. I was referring to the Sharon radicals

I was talking about the people who have perpetrated all of the hate mongering and discrimination practices.

You are right about this as being a positive step in undoing the anti-Palestine campaign set forth in Israel.

[pelsar]

4. UL...shsshhh

dont tell the israeli arabs their palestenains....

[Djinn]

5. not to mention teh myriad

of other benefits only available to serving or past IDF members - how does "reviewing" - not changing/cancelling but reviewing this improve on a system that is INHERENTLY designed to disadvantage a certain group

[eyl]

6. You'd have a point

if Israeli Arabs didn't have the option of volunteering for military service - which they do.

[Djinn]

7. hahahahahah

here you go kids, here's a gun now go into your old neighbourhood and shoot at the schools your kid brother is enrolled in hahahahahahaha

[eyl]

8. As pelsar keep pointing out

there's a difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians.

In any event, I know of at least one Israeli Arab who not only joined the IDF, but became an officer as well.

[pelsar]

9. eyl.....

Seems the minor point that israeli arabs are not palestenians seems to get lost here....
either out of ignorance or "just not accepting it"

What I think it is, and this is just a guess, is that as an "outsider" they are trying to keep the arab/israelis and palestenians as "one" to show just how israel "ruined families"and divided up a people...but this is just a guess.

Its does show how little they understand about the realities on the ground. Israeli Arabs do not identify with palestenians, Bedouin, Druz (all volunteers in the IDF) in general feel socially "superior" (marrying a palestenian is not high on their social scale...)

but then realities arent always a factor here

[Djinn]

10. once again pelsar

thinks he can take what someone says and construct a whole belief system around it.

thank you mbut I erally don't need someone to speak for me.

"Its does show how little they understand about the realities on the ground. Israeli Arabs do not identify with palestenians"

really pelsar - all of them?? hahahahah

[pelsar]

18. djnn...ever talk to israeli arabs?

of course not "all"....its a generalization about a society. There are always exceptions. Just as jewish israelis dont see marrying arabs as a good idea, there are exceptions. Native germans marrying turks, Irish catholic marrying protestants, Australlans marrying etc.

If your so quick to "understand" israeli arabs" and who and what they are, I would ask you, what do you really know of them?

[Djinn]

26. whereas a self procliamed member of the IDF

is well qualified to speak for Arabs...sorry can't type now - laughing too hard

[eyl]

27. It might shock you to know

that joining the IDF doesn't mean you get locked up on a base for the rest of your natural life.

[Djinn]

28. and it might shock YOU to know

that IDF officers aren't the first people that most arabs confide their hopes and fears to.

it's erally ignorant to assume you know the backgrounds of people on a internet forum by the way - and those assumptions often make people look a tad foolish.

but please - by all means don't let me stop you - this thread is increasingly hilarious

[eyl]

29. If you forgot

we have this thing called Reserves. As far as I've understood, pelsar (pelsar, correct me if I'm wrong) is in the IDF reserves; not regular service; and as such has interacted with Arabs as a civilian (or so I've gathered from his posts).

As for your last comment - what do you think I'm assuming of your background? Are you Israeli, or deal with Israeli Arabs on a regular basis? If not, what's the relevence?

[Djinn]

30. how many arabs living in the OT does he have

buddy chummy relationships with - my guess is less then myself but yet he's able to speak for all of them too with more "authority" than anyone else here on this board.

Funny but that "authority" means nothing - much like everything else people say on this board - I could be Arafat's widow you could be Sharon's love child (actually should watch what I say the poor man's been "demonised" here apparently - funny you wouldn't think liberals would jump to the defence of a rightwing nut but this is weird forum after all) so the "I know best" theory cuts very little ice with me.

[eyl]

31. In case you haven't been reading carefully

his (and my) point was regarding bIsraeli Arabs - i.e. not in the Territories.

[Djinn]

32. and CLEARLY you havn't been reading this exchange

all that carefully - but I really can't be bothered taking you through it step by step - so I'll leave it up to you to work out what my posts referred to.

if your head starts hurting at the effort - have a lie down :eyes:

[eyl]

16. Clarification

In my post, I should have specified Christian Israeli Arab - Bedouin (and Druze, if you count them as Arabs) officers are not uncommon in the IDF.

[Coastie for Truth]

11. "Reviewing" is a term Common Law Judges use

to determine if they will "change" or "cancel" or "countermand" or "enjoin" a practice.

"To take under review" is the standard phrase for commencing such an action.

[Lithos]

12. You go girl!

I got to admire her stand on principles. This issue of barring Arabs from service, yet making such a service a requisite from societal access needs to be addressed, this is a good start.

However, I wonder if it won't backfire somehow, the ultra-religious are also fighting to have this type of prohibition lifted as it also affects the Yeshuv student who takes their deferrment from the IDF.

L-

[eyl]

13. Again

Israeli Arabs are not "barred from service".

I think this is the only case in the world where population A is conscripted while population B is not (but can enlist on a voluntary basis) but it's described as discrimination against population B.

[Lithos]

14. I should have said compulsory service

That is an error on my part.

Yes, most Arabs and Christians are not barred from actual service. But there is still quite a bit of a barrier for and bias against Arabs (Muslims and Christians) from joining the IDF. Some are understandable and unfortunate (such as the Hebrew language requirements - I recognize the need for precise and consistent communication in a military setting), others are cultural including programs such as Chayal Boded designed for Aliyah, others include lack of recruitment/retention/outreach efforts to Arabs, and most importantly, a lack of recognition by the Israeli government of the service of Arab veterans by the disparity of aid delivered afterwards which makes much of the benefit of joining fairly moot for many.

L-

[eyl]

15. If there are cases that

Arab veterens don't get the full benefits they're entitled to (mind you, I haven't heard of such a case, but OTOH, I haven't made much of a study of it), that's a serious problem which needs to be rectified. On your other points, it should be pointed out that the lack of recruitment efforts in the Arab sector is a result of an unspoken agreement between the government and the Arab leadership (hell, the Arab MKs - which by most accounts are sgnificantly more extreme than their public, BTW - start screaming whenever anyone suggests mandatory national service for Arabs, much less military duty). I'm not sure what you find objectionable in the Hayal Boded program, however; it's not specifically intended for aliyah (though most of the soldiers of that status are olim) - rather, it's intended to give a place to live and some support to soldiers who don't have a home (unlike in the US, the typical IDF soldier lives with his parents throughout his service). While it's true very few Arabs would be eligible for that program, that's simply because they have families nearby - and the same is true of the majority of Jewish soldiers.

[Lithos]

17. It's not an issue of entitlement

Nor one of formal discrimation, but rather a functional discrimination primarily by neglect. I think the best analogy would be how blacks and other minorities were treated in the 70's and 80's here in the United States. This was the era of forced bussing and robin hood programs to help out the rural and urban areas which were suffering economically and whose school systems were rapidly falling behind. (On Edit: cleaned up phrasing I did not like concerning robinhood)

While it is getting better in Israel (and I do make and recognize that distinction), the Druze and Circassians were stereotypically treated by society in a way that for instance did not recognize their military service and commitment to Israel during times of national emergency. The Druze and Circassians have not benefitted from their committed support to Israel.

One major point for this is that the amount of public spending into their communities remains below that of Jewish or even Christian groups. I've read arguments presented by MK's (albeit RW) that utilize the argument that because Arabs don't serve then money should not be spent equally on them, but of course this doesn't follow in the case of the Druze.

Other Arabs who do enlist are even less recognized than the Druze and Circassians.

One of the issues which I think show this best is the outreach programs. Unlike the very carefully crafted outreach program, Chayal Boded, which provides very well specified support mechanisms to learn and recieve these rights, no such outreach has been made from what I've seen for Arab veterans. But then again, I'm not Israeli so this could easily be from my lack of access into such a very specialized knowledge arena.

[eyl]

20. OK, I see what you're getting at

And I agree for the most part. The lack of equitable funding for Arab communities* is a serious problem which needs to be rectified, though the situation has been getting better. It's not so much that Druze military service is unrecognized as it's not taken into account (as I saw a Druze say on a TV interview at a military funeral, "Israel loves us when we die, but not when we live").

I still don't get the relevence of Hayal Boded. It's a support program, not an outreach program, and therefore is irrelevent for Arabs. Also, it only applies to serving soldiers, not veterans. As I mentioned earlier, outreach programs into the Arab sector face opposition from the Arab leadership, and so are not done, since the government prefers to let sleeping dogs lie.

*For completeness, I should point out the lower budgets of Arab municipalities are partly their own fault. Tax enforcement (especially local taxes such as the property tax) in the Arab sector is, on the whole, far more lax than in the Jewish sector, inevtiebly leading to lower tax revenues for the municipality. There are also a few other similiar issues. None of this, however, excuses lower government allocations. this is not just an ethical issue, but a practical one; the right-wing MK's who object to equal funding are IMO idiots (well, IMO most of the MKs are idiots, but that's another rant) because improving the lot of the Israeli Arabs is beneficial in a long-term right-wing view.

[Lithos]

21. I think your quote sums up what I was saying exactly

(as I saw a Druze say on a TV interview at a military funeral, "Israel loves us when we die, but not when we live").

I'm under the impression Hayal Boded extends some benefits for something like 3 years past the end of service. I'm do not begrudge most of the specialized perks such as early release on Fridays, the extra time off to visit overseas family, or the double pay and specialized access to finances which do go a long way to compensate for the lack of family. As you stated earlier, there are assumptions made by the system of a citizen soldier who is supported by their family.

My focus is on the creation of a "Mashaket Tna-ei Sherut", a very special advocacy for this orphaned/lone soldier. This to me seems to add a layer which is unique and is not an equivalent to any thing having family provides. It also shows that the system is prepared to add an advocate and leaves begging why they cannot do this for other needy groups. It's a precedence that is not being applied consistently in my book.

And I agree for completeness there are items within the Arab community's control which could help make things better. Both sides have issues which they fail to improve upon.

L-

[eyl]

22. I think you're under a misapprehension as to what

the Mashakit Tna'ei Sherut's (Mashakit Tash, for short) duties are. She (almost all the soldiers in this job are female) is responsible for all "soldier welfare" matters. That includes Hayal Boded, but that's hardly her sole duty; she also deals with granting additional pay or work permits for soldiers who need to help support their families, placement for soldiers who for economic or medical reasons need to serve close to home (or in rarer cases, soldiers who specifically want to serve far from home), and so on* (also, usually the Tash department and the Education department collectively function as their unit's Morale Officer). These options are as open to Arab soldiers who qualify for them as they are to Jewish ones.

I'm not sure whether or not Hayal Boded benefits extend beyond the mandatory service term; as far as I remember they don't, but I never looked into the matter closely, and it may have changed in the last few years (and in any case, not every soldier gets the same benefits; their decided on a case-by-case basis).

*She also often serves as an informal counselor in small units.

[Lithos]

23. Mashakit Tash

My introduction to this role was for Hayal Boded. I'd not seen or heard of this role being applied outside of this one circumstance/application.

Again, I'm an outsider to the IDF system so my knowledge reflects what is available externally. What I've seen has been unique to the Hayal Boded. If I'm off as a result, then I apologize.


L-

[eyl]

24. OK, I can see how you might think that

For obvious reasons, I suppose of all the problems a Mashakit Tash deals with (and functions as an advocate for), Hayal Boded is the one most likely to have been heard of by someone outside Israel; but Hayalim Bodedim are a minority of the problems a Mashakit Tash deals with.

[pelsar]

25. the chayal boded (soldier alone)

since I was one guess its time to comment. Though it was over 20 years ago, the benefits that i received were basically additional guard duty during family visits (seriously-since i had no family....)

I receive a bit more pay, got a present or two from the organization....and a visit by an officer to ask me how things were going.....and that was it.

Others got time off to got to the states (some didnt return)......

[pelsar]

19. eyl.....thats pretty funny...the draft

I never though of it that way...but your right. Can you imagine the outcry in the US or UK or Australia if there was a draft of a certain group and not of the other group.....

who would be screaming discrimination against who?.....here its backwards, the group that doesnt get drafted....and there are those who are yelling that they are the discriminated group (even though they can volunteer-sheesh)

[DU GrovelBot]

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