'It's a little girl.' Tapes reveal troops' 'kill'

[Violet_Crumble]

By Ed O'Loughlin
Jerusalem
November 24, 2004

Israeli television has broadcast a military tape recording suggesting that Israeli troops knowingly shot and killed a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Rafah last month.

The tape, broadcast on Channel Two's Uvda program on Monday night, records communications between Israeli soldiers as they killed 13-year-old schoolgirl Iman al-Hams after she allegedly strayed towards their fortified positions along Gaza's border with Egypt.

The unidentified commander of the unit has been charged with five minor offences after several of his troops accused him of deliberately emptying his assault rifle into the child after she had already been shot several times - a procedure known in the Israeli army as "confirmation of kill".

The following extracts from the tape were published in Hebrew in yesterday's edition of the newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

06:48 The observation point identifies the girl.

Observation point: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward ... a girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Middle-East-Crisis/Its-a-little-girl-Tapes-reveal-troops-kill/2004/11/24/1100972401791.html

I may be a bit slow on the uptake here, but what's the difference between the deliberate killing of this child and the deliberate killing of Israeli children?

Violet...

[Goldmund]

1. It's that the Israeli Army doesn't INTENTIONALLY target civilians

/SAR-FUCKING-CASM

[damntexdem]

9. Right, just entire populations.

What can be expected when the terrorists are in charge of the Israeli government?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. To be fair

the Israeli army probably wouldn't care if civilians weren't killed. They adopt a policy which will inevitably lead to the deaths of civilians, and they clearly don't care about them,but I'm not convinced that they actively seek them.

Whether this is better than actively seeking to kill them is another matter.

[Englander]

24. B'Tselem "Trigger-happy attitude among Israeli soldiers"

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3373.shtml

The circumstances surrounding the killing of Iman al-Hams are grave. However, the large number of Palestinian civilians killed indicate that her death is not unusual. What is unusual about this case, however, is the fact that the IDF initiated a Military Police investigation that led to an indictment. There is no such accountability for the vast majority of Palestinian civilian deaths.

Iman al-Hams, a twelve year-old girl, was shot and killed on 5 October 2004 while walking to school in the Rafah refugee camp. The company commander who shot her claimed that he acted in accordance with regulations, and the IDF Chief of Staff accepted the commander's version of events. Only after soldiers from the company told the press that the commander had "verified" her death (pumping her body with bullets from close range) did the Military Police initiate an investigation. The company commander has now been charged with illegal use of his weapon and obstruction of justice.

According to B'Tselem's data, since the beginning of the intifada, IDF soldiers have killed at least 1,656 Palestinians who took no part in the fighting. Of those killed, 529 were children. Many of these deaths result from changes in the Rules of Engagement, which now allow soldiers to open fire on Palestinians in a variety of non-combat situations, even when the soldiers are not in danger. The most blatant example is the order to open fire whenever Palestinians enter so-called "danger zones," including the perimeter fence around the Gaza Strip, and areas around military bases and settlements.

An equally troubling phenomenon, however, is the climate of impunity in which these deaths take place. Over the past four years, the IDF conducted only 89 military police investigations into deaths and injuries of Palestinians. Of these investigations, only 22 resulted in indictments. To date, one soldier has been convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian. Thus in the vast majority of cases, no one is ever held accountable.

[atreides1]

2. You've Already Stated the Difference

N/T

[izzie]

3. Are they 'helping' us in Iraq?

I am reading they are there. Good people to let plan things, look what they have done to the Holy Land. No one but Republicans could make a mess like that. Well how should I think after 4 years of Bush

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. I have the answer to that

If we show too much sympathy for the Palestinian girl, we'll be called liberal, pinko, American troop haters, anti-semites.

[sandnsea]

5. And

if we show too much sympathy for the Israeli children killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, we're called neocon right wing imperalists.

They're both wrong. Just like in Iraq, US soldiers wrong. Terrorist bombings and beheadings wrong.

[Goldmund]

7. Define "terrorist bombings"

Do they include bombing US and Iraqi Army positions, or are you purely talking about targeting civilians?

[sandnsea]

10. civilians

But frankly, I find all of it stupid. At least half of what is going on in Iraq is politically motivated, between THEIR political/religious groups, not ours.

[Goldmund]

11. So let me get this straight...

Defending against an armed occupier in your native land is totally acceptable and expected, but the way they do it is "stupid" -- right?

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. And that's another thing about the Middle East.

The guarantee is that whatever position you take, you're bound to piss someone off.

[sandnsea]

13. I didn't say that

I said targeting civilians is stupid. I also said not all of them are simply defending against an armed occupier.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. For a bombing to be terrorist

I think (although I'm not certain about this) the intention has to be to inspire terror, rather than to destroy the specific target. If I bomb an army position because I'm worried about those specific soldiers it's not terrorism; if I do so to frighten other soldiers it is.

I think usually terrorism has to be covert, to: I've never heard the blitz referred to as terrorism.

[sui generis]

6. we all have slow days

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not every Palestinian is a suicide bomber or a terrorist. Not every Israeli wants to wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth.

It's a tragedy - but your final comment is also disturbing.

[Goldmund]

8. I don't see that the original poster anywhere suggested that...

...this makes targeting Israeli civilians any more "right". To the contrary.

This isn't just a "tragedy". It's a murder.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. What was so disturbing about my comment?

n/t

[Djinn]

14. Misuse of a weapon and abuse of power

not murder nor manslaughter - that's what was sticking in my throat this morning as I listened to the news, next time a Hamas terorist speaks about killing anything that moves even if it's a 3 year old shortly before blowing up a bus can we say his crime was "abuse of power" or "illeaglly discharging explosives"

Listening to IDF spin doctor made me want to vomit, she had the gall to suggest it was the girls fault for being there - if your job requires you defend the repeated close range shooting of a child even when other soldiers have obviously found this horrifying then it's time to get another job, don't know how she sleeps at night - at the very least the soldiers are in a tense situation (btw I don't justify this sort of thing in the OT or Iraq or wherever because the soldiers are nervous but it is atleast a part explanation in some cases) this bitch was sitting behind a desk excusing a child's murder.

[MuzioGambit]

16. From what Ive gathered...

No one has justified the commander shooting her while she was down. The mainstream media and the soldiers both rightly have accused the commander. Its also interesting that we only got to see snippets of the conversation... has anyone found the whole transcript? Using only small parts seems like propaganda.

Also, from what Ive heard, the girl was running towards the outpost with a backpack on. We've seen that Palestinian children have been used to lay bombs before. To me, if a girl was running at me with a potential bomb and wasn't stopping, Id shoot her. As my father says, "better to be judged by 12 then buried by 6".

As always, its interesting how this commander is going to be prosecuted while Palestinian terrorists are lauded for their efforts. Yet, there is an outcry against Israel but not against terrorism.

[Scurrilous]

17. I guess you missed this part....

...of the snippets:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html

"The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot."

[Violet_Crumble]

18. 'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

What a disgusting excuse for a human being that guy is...

Violet...

[ashiebr]

22. "there is an outcry against Israel but not against terrorism".

You do live on the same planet as us do you Muzio? Palestinians terrorists are lauded for their efforts? No outcry against terrorism?

Hello....earth to Muzio....hello??!!

[Djinn]

23. then you havn't gathered much

I just described the IDF spin doctor justifying these actions - EVEN the riddling of her body with bullets when she was already down.

Just how would shooting a shitload of bullets into a bag one beleived was carrying explosives be a good idea? and where did you hear she was running towards the troops and would not stop - there is NO evidence of that at all and I don't believe even the IDF claim that.

If you feel you'd shoot at a 12 year old then I'm very sorry for you.

As always, its interesting how this commander is going to be prosecuted while Palestinian terrorists are lauded for their efforts. Yet, there is an outcry against Israel but not against terrorism.

He is only going to be prosecuted for MINOR technical offenses, not for murder or manslaughter. Like I said earlier would you be OK with charging a Hamas terrorist with "illegally discharging an explosive" or would you prefer murder? This is one of the very few IDF crimes to go to court and it's ONLY happening because other IDF personnel found this piece of shit's actions deplorable.

Perhaps you need to find out how many people are serving prison sentances (some without trial or conviction) for crimes against Israelis and then find out how many are serving for crimes against Palestinians - I think you'll find it's massively out of proportion to the numbers of Palestinians/Israeli's killed in the conflict.

Oh and since fucking when is there no outcry against Palestinian terrorism?

[Englander]

21. Has there ever been a case where a IDF soldier has ..

been charged with murder?
"A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood"