Why are do so many 9/11 conspiracy theorists hate Jews

[geek tragedy]

and deny the Holocaust? Folks like this guy: http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/jk_on_joos.htm

and Joe Vialls. Is it just a coincidence?

[enki23]

1. and why won't they stop beating their wives?

.

[geek tragedy]

2. There's evidence of their anti-semitism--their own words.

Are you going to deny that the two people mentioned above have a dislike of Jews?

[enki23]

12. i'm not denying anything at all

and i'm certainly not even a member of the "911 conspiracy theorists" group, by any reasonable measure. however, two examples doesn't justify the "so many" used in the thread title. neither does it justify the implied tarring of anyone who doesn't believe the official line on 9-11 with the "antisemite" label.

here's a better question: why do so many people who buy into the wilder "conspiracy theories" tend to buy into a *lot* of conspiracy theories, including some in which the major conspiratorial players are jews?

for the most part, they aren't "ant-semites." they're something much more broadly defined than that. they're *credulous.* way too god damned credulous. and some of them are anti-semites, some of them are racists, some are mysogynists, some are conservatives, some are liberals, some are communists, and fascists, believers in aliens, and sasquatch, and hostile takeover by the united nations, and some of them are stark raving mad, fucking loony. some are all the above. and some aren't.

there are more than enough confounding variables here to make your question--as you pose it--completely absurd.

[geek tragedy]

14. I'm not saying that anyone who disbelieves the version I believe

is a bigot.

As I noted below, I see guys who think like Timothy McVeigh being touted as progressives and think it's absolutely disgusting. Try doing a search of the archives for some notable neo-nazi sites and holocaust deniers like David Irving and Willis Carto's operations, and they've been cited many a time as sources to support conspiracy theories.

[Jim Sagle]

7. geek tragedy is right.

Joe Vialls and John Kaminski are vicious antisemitic filth. They convict themselves with their own words.

But they are not very typical of 9-11 L/MIHOP believers.

[DenverDem]

3. We don't hate Jews, we hate Israel's actions.

Why do so many busholini apologists seem unable to differentiate between objecting to the criminal actions of the Likud and hating Jews? Is it just a coincidence?

[Jim Sagle]

6. And why do so many Palestine Firsters seem unable to

differentiate between defending Israel and promoting w? Is THAT just a coincidence?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Jim Sagle]

17. Nice smear of a Democrat.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Jim Sagle]

20. Justice first or Palestine First?

Even during Democratic convention week, the I/P folder is cooking full blast.

To me the middle west is just as important as the Middle East.

[DenverDem]

21. Justice first!

Likud apologists sure are obsessive.

Only a just peace will make Israel and Jews around the world safe from blowback from the Likud brutality.

[Jim Sagle]

22. "Blowback" aimed at "Jews around the world" is antisemitism.

I'm sure you'll condemn it.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[geek tragedy]

26. Well, the hatred of Jews goes back thousands of years, so I guess

it's the chicken.

[DenverDem]

27. So anything Israel does is justified, right.

This is why there will be no peace.

[geek tragedy]

30. I didn't say that--merely that Judenhass is far older than Israel

You asked which came first.

In any event, this isn't about I/P. It's about Nazi bastards trying to infiltrate this site and the larger progressive movement by jumping on board the Bush-hating bandwagon.

[DenverDem]

32. No, it's about smokescreening Israel's criminality behind "judenhass".

It has nothing to do with Jews, but with the Likud and their financial overlords using the Jews as pawns in a far larger game of Middle East destabilization.

The Jews are pawns to the Likud like the fundigelicals are pawns to the publicans.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

34. Thank you.

Why is it that no one, jews included, seems to get this concept?

[geek tragedy]

35. This discussion had nothing to do with I/P, and some people dragged it

into the discussion.

The question was why do an unusually high percentage of conspiracy theorists deny the Holocaust and hate Jews. The question had nothing, nada, zip, zilch to do with Zionism and Palestine.

Why can't some people discuss anti-semitism without bringing Israel into it? Why can't they just unambiguously reject anti-semitism and leave it at that?

[objection]

38. You cited a link to the Kaminsky site.

Readers were presumably therefore invited to examine the content.

On the given page he writes for instance:

"I'm not an anti-Semite. I'm anti-Israel, an illegal nation which has inherited all the worst traits of Hitler's regime and passed them onto the United States."

Your premise is therefore somewhat open to question, is it not?

[geek tragedy]

40. Did you read one single word after the text you quoted?

IMMEDIATELY after writing what you quoted, he said:

<snip>
And I'm anti-Jew because there are so few Jews with the honesty to admit their beloved sanctuary of Israel is a lethal menace to every decent nation and ethnic group on earth, including itself. This too is a Jewish legacy that has been successfully passed to the United States.

Anti-Semite. That's a good one.

Jews aren't Semites at all; they're Turkic Mongols, who stormed their way across Asia with Genghis Khan 1500 years ago, became Khazars in the Ukraine a thousand years ago, adopted Judaism as a political strategy, then infiltrated eastern Europe, always ashamed of their Oriental lineage, which they have done their best to conceal.

But it's no secret; they're still behaving like Genghis Khan, taking what they want and lying about it. They picked up a lot of good pointers from Hitler, that's all. They have become like Hitler, but they always were like Hitler, because they're a lot like Genghis Khan, the greatest butcher of all time (although the Bushes are in the running), because they're descended from him.

It's a terrible hoax, just like the Holocaust. Zionists had an office at Hitler's headquarters to funnel a "chosen" few to Palestine. And because Zionists controlled the American media, we fell for the myth of the Holocaust, although it wasn't really introduced into the public until 20 years after the war ended.
<snip>

Kaminski isn't anti-semitic--he's just anti-Jew!

No, it's not open to debate.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

39. Sure I'll do that...

I'm gonna go smoke a doob with one of my good friends, Zack Ben-Dov, MVP of the 2004 Dad val regatta, in a couple of hours. I'll renounce my anti-semitism to him as soon as I get there :eyes:.

http://www.owlsports.com/sports/mcrew/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=15397,

GO Owls!

[geek tragedy]

36. You're the one who turned this thread into Israel vs. Palestine

The original topic was anti-semitism amongst 9/11 conspiracists, not I/P.

[DenverDem]

41. You label conspiracists anti-semitic because they accuse Israel

of complicity in 9/11.

[geek tragedy]

42. I accuse them of anti-semitism

because they hate Jews and deny the Holocaust.

[DenverDem]

45. Not true.

But truth is not important to your argument.

[geek tragedy]

47. I'll bet you can't prove that and that you're just

making shit up.

Prove me wrong. I provided evidence of Holocaust denial and anti-Jewish hate speech. I condemned such hatred.

What the holy living fuck does that have to do with Israel?

[DenverDem]

51. The thread started by slamming accusers of the Mossad complicity in 9/11

as anti-semites.

[geek tragedy]

54. I accused people who deny the Holocaust

and describe themselves as "anti-Jew" of being anti-semitic.

Can you read?

[Darranar]

46. No, he labels them anti-semitic because they speak of...

Jewish control of the media and claim that the Holocaust never happened.

They are anti-semites. If they also happened to be Likudniks, it wouldn't change that fact. Quite a few christian conservatives would probably fall into that category.

[DenverDem]

50. Bullshit, this is about Mossad complicity in 9/11

and anyone who poses that theory is disingenously accused of anti-semitism.

[geek tragedy]

53. Can you read minds?

Please back that up, or learn to tell the truth.

Why can't you talk about anti-semitism without bringing up Israel. Do you think anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are the same thing?

[DenverDem]

55. You can't disagree with Israeli criminality without being labeled

anti-semitic.

Jews are not Israel. Challenging Israeli criminality is not anti-semitism.

The thread started as a slam of theorists who see Mossad complicity in 9/11 as anti-semites. I don't have to be a mind reader to see the agenda.

[geek tragedy]

57. You're still making shit up.

Prove that my criticism of Holocaust denial and naked bigotry towards Jews is pro-Israel propaganda, or

SHOVE IT!

[DenverDem]

59. Dude, you started the thread as a slam at theorists that claim MOSSAD

complicity in 9/11.

Why were the Mossad agents video taping the event and dancing with glee over in New Jersey as the towers fell?

Why do you hate America?

[geek tragedy]

63. I didn't mention Mossad. I mentioned Holocaust denial and bigoted remarks

And take your Bill O'Reilly impersonation and

shove it.

[Darranar]

68. Those "theorists" also claimed anti-semitic things...

Whether or not claiming Mossad complicity in 9/11 is anti-semitic is another matter entirely, one irrelevant to the subject at hand.

[Darranar]

71. How do you know that? n/t

[geek tragedy]

25. Racist violence is "blowback." Kind of like dead Iraqi children are

"collateral damage."

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

31. Don't light a match, you'll burn that straw man you constructed.

Opposing anti-semitism and racist violence against Jews is NOT IN ANY WAY A DEFENSE OF ISRAEL'S POLICIES.

Do you agree?

[DenverDem]

33. I agree, but why do you use it that way?

Any challenge of Israel's policies is decried as anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways, and it is hardly a straw man argument.

[Darranar]

44. Who says he uses it that way?

He is bringing up the topic of anti-semitism in conspiracy theories - not so rare a thing.

[DenverDem]

52. Only conspiracy theories that claim Mossad complicity in 9/11

are labeled anti-semitic.

[geek tragedy]

56. Do you think people who are "anti-Jew" and deny the Holocaust

are anti-semitic?

Yes or no.

[DenverDem]

60. Do you think people who accuse Mossad complicity in 9/11 are

anti-semetic?

Yes or no.

[geek tragedy]

61. Some are, some aren't. eom

[Jim Sagle]

64. And for goddamn good reason. No one who spews forth that filth

every comes up with any real evidence.

[Darranar]

67. That does not mean that ANY conspiracy theory...

that claims Mossad complicity in 9/11 is labeled anti-semitic.

Some do so, with perhaps some justification, but that is another matter. The issue here is conspiracy theorists who not only claim Mossad complicity in 9/11, but ALSO claim blatantly anti-semitic things: the Holocaust never happened, the Jews control the media, etc.

[geek tragedy]

69. Precisely. n/t

[Jim Sagle]

4. It's not a coincidence, but it's not really that many.

The best 9-11 work of all was done by Jared Israel at http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/911page.htm. Needless to say, Mr. Israel does NOT hate Jews. ;)

Of course, strictly speaking, he is not a theorist at all. His trademarks are hard fact and intensive investigation. He leaves most of the theorizing to others.

As some here may know, I have zero tolerance for antisemitism. But it's important not to shy away from speaking truth to power - if you have real evidence to back up what you're saying.

[geek tragedy]

11. It's just appalling to see progressives citing Timothy McVeigh-like

right-wing Nazi bastards and bigots as credible sources.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

23. more from anti war.com

http://antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html

Have fun. :hi:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Crazy Canadian]

5. Blame the neocons.

I didn't read the article, but will take a look at it.

I'll just say now that because most neocons are of Jewish origin, you'll see this link between Zionist conspiracies and US foreign policy favoring the interests of Israel.

[Caution]

9. any time there is potential for a conspiracy

these whackjob fringe nazi groups blame the Jews. Standard. Pick a conspiracy theory. any conspiracy theory. then do a search. somewhere you will find a site blaming the Jews for it.

I'm fascinated by conspiracy theories (I don't buy into pretty much any of them) and they are a bit of a hobby for me and these nazi nutjobs pop up on everything. According to them, Jews are responsible from everything from the Kennedy Assassination, to the Bay of Pigs, to the rise of the Soviets, to the Roswell "cover-up" to MIHOP, LIHOP to the "faked" landing on the moon and everything in between (which is a lot of ground, MK Ultra, the various cabals, flouride, etc).

This is one of the reasons I become dismayed whenever I see the more outlandish theories pop up here on DU. It's not that I think these people are Anti-Semites, it's that invariably the comparisons will be drawn, trying to portray leftists as the same as these anti-semitic nazi whackjobs. (And we are seeing it in some of the right-wing rhetoric these days, using the term "loony left").

When it comes right down to it though I have found that DU is a great resource overall so I have made a practice of simply putting the conspiracy theorists on my ignore list here. I use other better resources when getting my conspiracy theory hobby info. I find most DU'ers are real novices when it comes to the hard core conspiracy stuff and tend to get excited by things that those who really follow it have been saying for years.

[arcane1]

10. 2?

that's 'so many'? :shrug:

I'd say coincidence

[geek tragedy]

13. There are more

those were just examples. Rense, tbrnews, the american free press, serendipity, etc.

[Jim Sagle]

15. Well, there's more than two.

What Really Happened is a third. And you can find others.

I don't think it is a coincidence. Go to the Vanguard site (use Google if you want to find it) and you'll note how they boast about how they infiltrate the far left and try to infect it with antisemitism.

But it's still more the exception than the rule. I KNEW 911 was MIHOP the VERY FIRST SECOND I HEARD ABOUT IT. The idea that four highjacked airplanes could roam through our air defense unimpeded without inside help is laughable on its face.

[geek tragedy]

16. They're consciously trying to pollute the progressive movement

with their filth. That's why people have to reject "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Between Willis Carto and George W. Bush, I don't have any friends.

[Jim Sagle]

18. I feel the same way sometimes.

They're not only polluting it, they're trying to discredit it.

[Trajan]

37. Ok .. I'll bite ....

How many 9-11 conspiracy theorists exist, and what percentage 'hate jews' ? ...

I would like numbers for each category with which to accurately determine the relative ratio of 'Jew-hating 911 Conspiracy Theorists' to 'NON-jew-hating 911 Conspiracy Theorists' ....

To make such a claim, you would have to have these numbers available ...

from the Atheism Web: Logic and Fallacies: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#complexq

Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition

This is the interrogative form of Begging the Question. One example is the classic loaded question:

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked. This trick is often used by lawyers in cross-examination, when they ask questions like:

"Where did you hide the money you stole?"
Similarly, politicians often ask loaded questions such as:

"How long will this EU interference in our affairs be allowed to continue?"
or

"Does the Chancellor plan two more years of ruinous privatization?"

Another form of this fallacy is to ask for an explanation of something which is untrue or not yet established.

-------

One might conversely ask: 'WHY do those who accuse others of antisemitism rely so heavily on the Fallacy of Presupposition to poison the atmosphere in DU ? ...

[geek tragedy]

43. How many anti-semitic conspiracy sites/individuals would you like me to

name? Give me a number--something reasonable given the total number that get cited here.

Here's a very fresh example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=15806&mesg_id=15806

[Trajan]

58. You implied that most all of them are antisemite ...

so: you must know this to be a fact ...

IF this is a fact, and you know it; then provide the numbers ...

Otherwise: this is just anecdote ...

Perhaps you need to rephrase: and state that 'some' are antisemite ...

[geek tragedy]

62. Let's put it this way

Your typical 9/11 conspiracy theorist is more likely to believe that the Holocaust was a hoax than your typical American or especially your typical DU'er.

[Trajan]

65. Really ? ...

geeez ... you dont stop ....

You have NO evidence, other than a feeling ....

Anecdotes arent proof of a fact ....

Guess what ? ...

I am neither a Holocaust denier ... nor do I believe in MIHOP/LIHOP ...

I suspect that the GOP are guilty of ignorance and malfeasance regarding the 911 attacks .... and nothing more .... I believe that Islamic Extremists planned and executed the 911 attacks ...

So: I dont believe the '911 conspiracy theories' on the whole, but that doesnt make the whole lot of them 'antisemite', which is a very ugly charge to cast about haphazardly ....

I recommend backing that one up with facts, and not carelessly tossing it out there without evidence ...

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof ....

[geek tragedy]

66. How many would be enough?

Let's see:

Tbrnews
american free press
serendipity.li
eastman
kaminski
rense
ihr
valentine
vialls
bollyn
germar rudolf
larouche
icke
libertyforum


All get cited here--and that's without access to the archives, where others would turn up. Some people post from more than one of these sources.

Hell, even Mel Gibson's evil nutbag father gets treated with respect by the conspiracy crowd.

[lefty_mcduff]

84. Ahm - link please? Emperical evidence?

As someone who is offended by people 'making shit up', I'm sure you have all sorts of evidence that your *TYPICAL* 9/11 conspiracy theorist is more likely to believe that the Holocaust was a hoax Not just a few web sites that feature both theories, but actual emperical evidence. You know, polls, studies, etc.

Thanks - that would be great.

You should also consider that the official Bin Laden *theory* is that he and his minions where part of a *conspiracy* which makes the government story a....

[demodewd]

48. Do you differentiate

Do you differentiate between anti-zionism and anti-semitism?

[geek tragedy]

49. Of course I do. Holocaust denial is a good place to start.

Bashing Jews instead of Israel is another. Talking about a "Jewish conspiracy" also gets one in the book.

That sort of thing.

[demodewd]

73. the axis?

As one who believes that 9-11 was an inside job I think it quite possible that there was complicity by the Mossad along with British and American intelligence. I do believe there is an American-Anglo-Zionist axis if one may call it that. Try to run a candidacy that is supportive of Palestinian rights and see how far you go...you parrot the American position on Israel or else.

[demodewd]

74. Anglo-American Conspiracy

How about an Anglo-American conspiracy as exemplified by our aggressive military presence in the Middle East and other parts of the world to protect Anglo-American oil and corporate interests? I think the Likudniks play their hand with the Anglo-American intentions in mind believing that it is in their best interest to do so.And I also believe there are strong Jewish lobbies here to push American foreign policy in a certain direction(Aggressive military interventionism in the Middle East).But there are also other lobbies that have similar geo-political motives...Heritage Foundation, PNAC,AEI etc.

[Darranar]

70. Why is that relevant?

Holocaust denial and claiming Jewish control of the media isn't anti-Zionism, it's anti-semitism. The premise that anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism - one I personally reject - is not necessary to conclude that these people are anti-semitic.

[Abe Linkman]

75. WARNING - - Disinfo Agents use topics like this to get people banned

THINK before you post a message on this sensitive topic.

[geek tragedy]

76. Oooh, I'm a Disinfo agent now!

When do I get my secret decoder ring?

Heaven forbid we question the research credentials of people who don't believe the Holocaust happened.

[MercutioATC]

78. Welcome to the club, geek tragedy!

I'll put your secret decoder ring and instructions on how to assume multiple identities in the mail tomorrow.

:tinfoilhat:

[geek tragedy]

79. Do they know about the satellite-based psychotropic system? eom

[LARED]

80. You're not supposed to tell them about that (n/t)

[geek tragedy]

81. Shit. I guess the keyboardists will be on to us--without ever leaving

their homes. They tricked us once again!

[Dancing_Dave]

77. Well, not all of them, there's Jared Israel

I'm really disappointed in that aspect of some 9/11 truth movement people too. It's like this all has to stay about conflict between various sects of Monotheism: Christians, Moslems and Jews. So when the idea of blaming it all on Arabs runs into big scientific and historical problems, well then, it must be the Jews instead. Just pathetic.

9/11 was actually about oil, not religion. Treacherous people from a variety of religion backgrounds got a piece of the action.

[number6]

82. Bull Shit...........

....

[geek tragedy]

83. Stunning eloquence, sir (or madame).

Care to elaborate?

[undergroundrailroad]

85. Locking per I/P Guidelines.

Subject line does not equal article's title.
Not recently-published news item or op-ed piece.


Undergroundrailroad
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