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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:38 PM
Original message
One Small Step
(Editor's note: Ms. Bayefsky delivered this speech at the U.N. at a conference on Confronting Anti-Semitism: Education for Tolerance and Understanding, sponsored by the United Nations Department of Information, this morning.)

THIS SPEECH REPRINTED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.



I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you at this first U.N. conference on anti-Semitism, which is being convened six decades after the organization's creation. My thanks to the U.N. organizers and in particular Shashi Tharoor for their initiative and to the secretary-general for his willingness to engage.

This meeting occurs at a point when the relationship between Jews and the United Nations is at an all-time low. The U.N. took root in the ashes of the Jewish people, and according to its charter was to flower on the strength of a commitment to tolerance and equality for all men and women and of nations large and small. Today, however, the U.N. provides a platform for those who cast the victims of the Nazis as the Nazi counterparts of the 21st century. The U.N. has become the leading global purveyor of anti-Semitism--intolerance and inequality against the Jewish people and its state.

Not only have many of the U.N. members most responsible for this state of affairs rendered their own countries Judenrein, they have succeeded in almost entirely expunging concern about Jew-hatred from the U.N. docket. From 1965, when anti-Semitism was deliberately excluded from a treaty on racial discrimination, to last fall, when a proposal for a General Assembly resolution on anti-Semitism was withdrawn after Ireland capitulated to Arab and Muslim opposition, mention of anti-Semitism has continually ground the wheels of U.N.-led multilateralism to a halt.

There has never been a U.N. resolution specifically on anti-Semitism or a single report to a U.N. body dedicated to discrimination against Jews, in contrast to annual resolutions and reports focusing on the defamation of Islam and discrimination against Muslims and Arabs. Instead there was Durban--the 2001 U.N. World Conference "Against Racism," which was a breeding ground and global soapbox for anti-Semites. When it was over U.N. officials and member states turned the Durban Declaration into the centerpiece of the U.N.'s antiracism agenda--allowing Durban follow-up resolutions to become a continuing battlefield over U.N. concern with anti-Semitism.

Not atypical is the public dialogue in the U.N.'s top human rights body--the Commission on Human Rights--where this past April the Pakistani ambassador, speaking on behalf of the 56 members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, unashamedly disputed that anti-Semitism was about Jews.





For Jews, however, ignorance is not an option. Anti-Semitism is about intolerance and discrimination directed at Jews--both individually and collectively. It concerns both individual human rights and the group right to self-determination--realized in the state of Israel.
What does discrimination against the Jewish state mean? It means refusing to admit only Israel to the vital negotiating sessions of regional groups held daily during U.N. Commission on Human Rights meetings. It means devoting six of the 10 emergency sessions ever held by the General Assembly to Israel. It means transforming the 10th emergency session into a permanent tribunal--which has now been reconvened 12 times since 1997. By contrast, no emergency session was ever held on the Rwandan genocide, estimated to have killed a million people, or the ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands in the former Yugoslavia, or the death of millions over the past two decades of atrocities in Sudan. That's discrimination.

The record of the Secretariat is more of the same. In November 2003, Secretary-General Kofi Annan issued a report on Israel's security fence, detailing the purported harm to Palestinians without describing one terrorist act against Israelis which preceded the fence's construction. Recently, the secretary-general strongly condemned Israel for destroying homes in southern Gaza without mentioning the arms-smuggling tunnels operating beneath them. When Israel successfully targeted Hamas terrorist Abdel Aziz Rantissi with no civilian casualties, the secretary-general denounced Israel for an "extrajudicial" killing. But when faced with the 2004 report of the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions detailing the murder of more than 3,000 Brazilian civilians shot at close range by police, Mr. Annan chose silence. That's discrimination.

At the U.N., the language of human rights is hijacked not only to discriminate but to demonize the Jewish target. More than one quarter of the resolutions condemning a state's human rights violations adopted by the commission over 40 years have been directed at Israel. But there has never been a single resolution about the decades-long repression of the civil and political rights of 1.3 billion people in China, or the million female migrant workers in Saudi Arabia kept as virtual slaves, or the virulent racism which has brought 600,000 people to the brink of starvation in Zimbabwe. Every year, U.N. bodies are required to produce at least 25 reports on alleged human rights violations by Israel, but not one on an Iranian criminal justice system which mandates punishments like crucifixion, stoning and cross-amputation of right hand and left foot. This is not legitimate critique of states with equal or worse human rights records. It is demonization of the Jewish state.

As Israelis are demonized at the U.N., so Palestinians and their cause are deified. Every year the U.N. marks Nov. 29 as the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People--the day the U.N. partitioned the British Palestine mandate and which Arabs often style as the onset of al nakba or the "catastrophe" of the creation of the state of Israel. In 2002, the anniversary of the vote that survivors of the concentration camps celebrated, was described by Secretary-General Annan as "a day of mourning and a day of grief."

In 2003 the representatives of over 100 member states stood along with the secretary-general, before a map predating the state of Israel, for a moment of silence "for all those who had given their lives for the Palestinian people"--which would include suicide bombers. Similarly, U.N. rapporteur John Dugard has described Palestinian terrorists as "tough" and their efforts as characterized by "determination, daring, and success." A commission resolution for the past three years has legitimized the Palestinian use of "all available means including armed struggle"--an absolution for terrorist methods which would never be applied to the self-determination claims of Chechens or Basques.





Although Palestinian self-determination is equally justified, the connection between demonizing Israelis and sanctifying Palestinians makes it clear that the core issue is not the stated cause of Palestinian suffering. For there are no U.N. resolutions deploring the practice of encouraging Palestinian children to glorify and emulate suicide bombers, or the use of the Palestinian population as human shields, or the refusal by the vast majority of Arab states to integrate Palestinian refugees into their societies and to offer them the benefits of citizenship. Palestinians are lionized at the U.N. because they are the perceived antidote to what U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi called the great poison of the Middle East--the existence and resilience of the Jewish state.
Of course, anti-Semitism takes other forms at the U.N. Over the past decade at the commission, Syria announced that yeshivas train rabbis to instill racist hatred in their pupils. Palestinian representatives claimed that Israelis can happily celebrate religious holidays like Yom Kippur only by shedding Palestinian blood, and accused Israel of injecting 300 Palestinian children with HIV-positive blood.

U.N.-led anti-Semitism moves from the demonization of Jews to the disqualification of Jewish victimhood: refusing to recognize Jewish suffering by virtue of their ethnic and national identity. In 2003 a General Assembly resolution concerned with the welfare of Israeli children failed (though one on Palestinian children passed handily) because it proved impossible to gain enough support for the word Israeli appearing before the word children. The mandate of the U.N. special rapporteur on the "Palestinian territories", set over a decade ago, is to investigate only "Israel's violations of . . . international law" and not to consider human-rights violations by Palestinians in Israel.

It follows in U.N. logic that nonvictims aren't really supposed to fight back. One after another concrete Israeli response to terrorism is denounced by the secretary-general and member states as illegal. But killing members of the command-and-control structure of a terrorist organization, when there is no disproportionate use of force, and arrest is impossible, is not illegal. Homes used by terrorists in the midst of combat are legitimate military targets. A nonviolent, temporary separation of parties to a conflict on disputed territory by a security fence, which is sensitive to minimizing hardships, is a legitimate response to Israel's international legal obligations to protect its citizens from crimes against humanity. In effect, the U.N. moves to pin the arms of Jewish targets behind their backs while the terrorists take aim.

The U.N.'s preferred imagery for this phenomenon is of a cycle of violence. It is claimed that the cycle must be broken--every time Israelis raises a hand. But just as the symbol of the cycle is chosen because it has no beginning, it is devastating to the cause of peace because it denies the possibility of an end. The Nuremberg Tribunal taught us that crimes are not committed by abstract entities.





The perpetrators of anti-Semitism today are the preachers in mosques who exhort their followers to blow up Jews. They are the authors of Palestinian Authority textbooks that teach a new generation to hate Jews and admire their killers. They are the television producers and official benefactors in authoritarian regimes like Syria or Egypt who manufacture and distribute programming that depicts Jews as bloodthirsty world conspirators.
Listen, however, to the words of the secretary-general in response to two suicide bombings which took place in Jerusalem this year, killing 19 and wounding 110: "Once again, violence and terror have claimed innocent lives in the Middle East. Once again, I condemn those who resort to such methods." "The Secretary General condemns the suicide bombing Sunday in Jerusalem. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a heinous crime and cannot be justified by any cause." Refusing to name the perpetrators, Mr. Secretary-General, Teflon terrorism, is a green light to strike again.

Perhaps more than any other, the big lie that fuels anti-Semitism today is the U.N.-promoted claim that the root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict is the occupation of Palestinian land. According to U.N. revisionism, the occupation materialized in a vacuum. In reality, Israel occupies land taken in a war which was forced upon it by neighbors who sought to destroy it. It is a state of occupation which Israelis themselves have repeatedly sought to end through negotiations over permanent borders. It is a state in which any abuses are closely monitored by Israel's independent judiciary. But ultimately, it is a situation which is the responsibility of the rejectionists of Jewish self-determination among Palestinians and their Arab and Muslim brethren--who have rendered the Palestinian civilian population hostage to their violent and anti-Semitic ambitions.

There are those who would still deny the existence of anti-Semitism at the U.N. by pointing to a range of motivations in U.N. corridors including commercial interests, regional politics, preventing scrutiny of human rights violations closer to home, or enhancement of individual careers. U.N. actors and supporters remain almost uniformly in denial of the nature of the pathogen coursing through these halls. They ignore the infection and applaud the host, forgetting that the cancer which kills the organism will take with it both the good and the bad.

The relative distribution of naiveté, cowardice, opportunism, and anti-Semitism, however, matters little to Noam and Matan Ohayon, ages 4 and 5, shot to death through their mother's body in their home in northern Israel while she tried to shield them from a gunman of Yasser Arafat's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. The terrible consequences of these combined motivations mobilized and empowered within U.N. chambers are the same.





The inability of the U.N. to confront the corruption of its agenda dooms this organization's success as an essential agent of equality or dignity or democratization.
This conference may serve as a turning point. We will only know if concrete changes occur hereafter: a General Assembly resolution on anti-Semitism adopted, an annual report on anti-Semitism forthcoming, a focal point on anti-Semitism created, a rapporteur on anti-Semitism appointed.

But I challenge the secretary-general and his organization to go further--if they are serious about eradicating anti-Semitism:


Start putting a name to the terrorists that kill Jews because they are Jews.


Start condemning human-rights violators wherever they dwell--even if they live in Riyadh or Damascus.


Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers.


And the next time someone asks you or your colleagues to stand for a moment of silence to honor those who would destroy the state of Israel, say no.
Only then will the message be heard from these chambers that the U.N. will not tolerate anti-Semitism or its consequences against Jews and the Jewish people, whether its victims live in Tehran, Paris or Jerusalem.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005245
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Mandatory reading......my favorite part
But I challenge the secretary-general and his organization to go further--if they are serious about eradicating anti-Semitism:


Start putting a name to the terrorists that kill Jews because they are Jews.


Start condemning human-rights violators wherever they dwell--even if they live in Riyadh or Damascus.


Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers.

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. How about this?
It is hard to believe that, 60 years after the tragedy of the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is once again rearing its head. But it is clear that we are witnessing an alarming resurgence of this phenomenon in new forms and manifestations. This time, the world must not, cannot be silent.

We owe it to ourselves, as well as to our Jewish brothers and sisters, to stand firmly against the particular tide of hatred that anti-Semitism represents. And that means we must be prepared to examine the nature of today’s manifestations of anti-Semitism more closely, which is the purpose of your seminar.

Let us acknowledge that the United Nations’ record on anti-Semitism has at times fallen short of our ideals. The General Assembly resolution of 1975, equating Zionism with racism, was an especially unfortunate decision. I am glad that it has since been rescinded.

But there remains a need for constant vigilance. So let us actively and uncompromisingly refute those who seek to deny the fact of the Holocaust or its uniqueness, or who continue to spread lies and vile stereotypes about Jews and Judaism.

When we seek justice for the Palestinians -- as we must -- let us firmly disavow anyone who tries to use that cause to incite hatred against Jews, in Israel or elsewhere.


http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2004/sgsm9375.doc.htm
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Beautiful words by Kofi Annan.....
sadly I dont believe his actions in the past match his
words today.

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. How so?
Which actions?

L-
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Action thru words....
"The record of the Secretariat is more of the same. In November 2003, Secretary-General Kofi Annan issued a report on Israel's security fence, detailing the purported harm to Palestinians without describing one terrorist act against Israelis which preceded the fence's construction. Recently, the secretary-general strongly condemned Israel for destroying homes in southern Gaza without mentioning the arms-smuggling tunnels operating beneath them. When Israel successfully targeted Hamas terrorist Abdel Aziz Rantissi with no civilian casualties, the secretary-general denounced Israel for an "extrajudicial" killing. But when faced with the 2004 report of the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions detailing the murder of more than 3,000 Brazilian civilians shot at close range by police, Mr. Annan chose silence."

Standing for a moment of silence to honor those who would destroy the state of Israel.

For NEVER identifying who commits the suicide attacks but resorts
to a half hearted "cycle of violence".
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I don't follow...
Edited on Mon Jun-21-04 11:10 PM by Lithos
Here is the UN news story concerning his comments from Nov. 2003.

While recognizing Israel’s “right and duty to protect its people against terrorist attacks” and noting that it began the barrier began after a sharp rise in Palestinian terror attacks in 2002, he adds: “That duty should not be carried out in a way that is in contradiction of international law, that could damage the longer term prospects for peace by making the creation of an independent, viable and contiguous Palestinian state more difficult, or that increases suffering among the Palestinian people.”

http://www0.un.org/apps/news/storyAr.asp?NewsID=9005&Cr=Palestin&Cr1=

Mr. Annan's comments concerning Gaza were:

In Palestine, Israel has continued extrajudicial killings, the use of disproportionate force in densely populated areas, wide-scale house demolitions, construction of a West Bank barrier and other activities. In the last couple of weeks, we have witnessed a terrible escalation of killing and injury that has reached absolutely unacceptable levels. Apart from the manifest contraventions of international law, such actions hinder the search for peace and deepen the bitterness that prevails among Palestinians and the indignation felt in the international community. We condemn those acts, and call on Israel to refrain from further violations of international law and to meet its obligations under the Road Map, especially halting settlement activities and ending the use of violence.

http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=938

If given the assumption that it is acceptable to destroy a home whenever a tunnel is found leading from it, this would have given the Israeli's rights to destroy exactly two homes. Maybe a few more if it were acceptable to destroy homes along the path of the tunnel. However, apx. 200 homes were destroyed in the two week long operation which left several thousand homeless, most of whose families had no connection to the tunnel.

Considering that even if it were militarily necessary for what really was a civilian operation, the Israeli government failed under accepted International Law to recompense these people for their loss.

Regarding the assassination of Rantisi. Without defending Rantisi's character and actions, suffice it to say there is a distinct difference between what happened in Brazil which was done without Executive level approval by low to mid level police officials and Israel which carried the stamp of the Prime Minister.



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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Fairly interesting......
Mr.Annan's comments broken down:

"In Palestine, Israel has continued extrajudicial killings, the use of disproportionate force in densely populated areas, wide-scale house demolitions, construction of a West Bank barrier and other activities."

{note Kofi doesnt mention the relentless attacks that lead to this}





"In the last couple of weeks, we have witnessed a terrible escalation of killing and injury that has reached absolutely unacceptable levels. Apart from the manifest contraventions of international law, such actions hinder the search for peace and deepen the bitterness that prevails among Palestinians and the indignation felt in the international community."


{read the usual blubbering of "cycle of violence" and btw.. when does
palestinian terrorism "deepen the bitterness that prevails among israelis and the indignation felt in the international community"....
I wont hold my breath}



We condemn those acts, and call on Israel to refrain from further violations of international law and to meet its obligations under the Road Map, especially halting settlement activities and ending the use of violence.

{as usual Mr. Annan's speech difficulties rear their ugly head.
For some reason he is unable to say the words "hamas","islamic jihad"
or "al aqsa martyrs brigade". Must have been an oversight}




And with regard to your comments:

"Regarding the assassination of Rantisi. Without defending Rantisi's character and actions, suffice it to say there is a distinct difference between what happened in Brazil which was done without Executive level approval by low to mid level police officials and Israel which carried the stamp of the Prime Minister."

Do you honestly think you can murder 3000 people and only have
"low to mid level"approval?? And even if you stretch credulity
and believe that, after being presented an extensive report , he barely comments on it? :shrug:

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Kofi Annan
{note Kofi doesnt mention the relentless attacks that lead to this}

{read the usual blubbering of "cycle of violence" and btw.. when does
palestinian terrorism "deepen the bitterness that prevails among israelis and the indignation felt in the international community"....
I wont hold my breath}

From his next statement from the same article:

For their part, some Palestinian groups continue to carry out suicide bombings and other attacks that fuel hatred and fear, and set back their national aspirations. We should all strongly condemn terrorism, wherever and whenever it occurs; no cause can justify it. We call on the Palestinian Authority to meet its obligations under the Road Map, and take effective measures on the ground to curb violence and combat terror.

http://www.un.org/apps/sg/sgstats.asp?nid=938

{as usual Mr. Annan's speech difficulties rear their ugly head.
For some reason he is unable to say the words "hamas","islamic jihad"
or "al aqsa martyrs brigade". Must have been an oversight}

Why is this important? He mentions Palestinian Groups which seems rather all encompassing. He has also in the past mentioned and spoken out against Hamas for their suicide operations.

Mr. Annan's style is to talk generally at the National Level, focusing on the people as a whole and not groups - in this case Israel/Israelis and Palestine/Palestinians. So while he rarely mentions specific Palestinian groups you will also note that he also rarely talks specifically about the IDF, the settlers who conduct violence in the OT, etc.

"low to mid level"approval?? And even if you stretch credulity
and believe that, after being presented an extensive report , he barely comments on it? :shrug:

Considering that the Rapporteur's report suggested that the majority cause is primarily due to systemic issues at the State (as opposed to Federal) level primarily within the judicial system which have resulted in an atmosphere of vigilantism, a legacy of impunity within the State Police forces leftover from the military dictatorship and a lack of resources to pursue these issues, yes.

The Rapporteur's report also listed quite a few items the Federal government of Brazil is pursuing to deal with these issues and issued strong commendations specifically to the current Brazilian Administration's efforts to deal with this problem.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
10.  I've underscored this part
In effect, the U.N. moves to pin the arms of Jewish targets behind their backs while the terrorists take aim.

The tunnels, of course, are well hidden. They can't be seen entering a house, so how are the IDF supposed to know which buildings actually harbor the tunnel entrances? While 3 tunnels were confirmed (or was it 4)that required actually taking down several buildings. More than one home may be connected to each building, in fact usually several are.

The element of surprise is necessary in this operation also. The military is not a branch of social work. That comes later.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Tunnels
The tunnels, of course, are well hidden. They can't be seen entering a house, so how are the IDF supposed to know which buildings actually harbor the tunnel entrances? While 3 tunnels were confirmed (or was it 4)that required actually taking down several buildings. More than one home may be connected to each building, in fact usually several are.

So why were the majority of homes destroyed long before they found any tunnels?

Ignoring the timeline and even granting that you say there were 3-4 tunnels and 3-4 homes connected to each tunnel, this leads to a grand total of 16 possibly involved homes. How does this jibe with the 200 homes destroyed?

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Not always accurate
Finding the tunnels is the problem. Intelligence may not be accurate. Many homes were destroyed the first few days without finding a single tunnel.

Also, I did not number the homes for each building. If it is typical, it may be 12-14 homes in one building. Or adjacent homes may be damaged because they share a connecting wall.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Later

"The element of surprise is necessary in this operation also. The military is not a branch of social work. That comes later. "

So when does the social work begin?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Usually the same day.
Tents were provided for those needing temporary shelter, and emergency supplies were brought in.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Bravo. Says what I really mean.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Probably why it was deleted
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Forkboy....
Edited on Tue Jun-22-04 02:32 PM by drdon326


you're a big supporter of the UN, what did you think

about the speech??
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I liked it
small steps are better than no steps,no?
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. It was deleted
because it was in reply to something disgusting and therefore made little sense after the disgusting post was deleted.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. They dont delete posts because they make no sense
after another one was deleted.

But I do thank you for the explanation,I guess.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes they do
it has been spoken of often
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
82. They also delete abusive posts...
And it doesn't matter where they are in a thread

it's in the rules :)

Violet...
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. You should know


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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. Self-deleted.
Edited on Fri Jun-25-04 09:09 PM by Jim Sagle
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. heh
Self deletes RAWK :)
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'll remember that next time YOU self-delete a post.
Or maybe I won't. :beer:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I didn't mean it in a negative way Jim
It's all good in the cage match :toast:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. I suspect we'll both like F9/11. I'm seeing it at noon.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-04 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent
eloquent and forcefully said.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. Very powerful and moving speech.
Edited on Wed Jun-23-04 01:02 AM by Andromeda
I saved it on my hard drive so I can refer to it when I need to.

The UN's indifference is simply shocking to me. I can't even find the right words to register my disgust.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
21. Why does she equate the "Jewish people" with Israel?
Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. If you have to ask.....
Edited on Wed Jun-23-04 12:15 PM by drdon326
then I can't help you.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. you may beleive that Israel and Judaism
Edited on Wed Jun-23-04 09:39 PM by Djinn
are interchangeable don but it doesn't change the fact that they're not.

More Jewish people live outside Israel than in it and the area controlled by the Isdraeli government includes more non Jews than Jews.

But never let the facts get in the way of a good bit of propaganda
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Facts?
Israel is about 80% Jewish. The rest are Arabs who are either Muslim or Druze.

Unless you are willing to cede the West Bank to Israel then you are just stretching facts for your own purposes.

What nation do the majority of Palestinians live?
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I believe the correct answer is.........
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 05:39 AM by drdon326


Jordan.





But never let the facts get in the way of a good bit of propaganda

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Palestinian Population
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 06:23 AM by Lithos
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/9b3403726305fefcc1256e0d005c20ae?OpenDocument

Of the 3.7 million inhabitants of the Palestinian territories, 2.3 million live in the West Bank and 1.4 million in Gaza.

Around 2.8 million live in Jordan, 436,000 in Syria, 415,000 in Lebanon and 62,000 in Egypt. Some 595,000 live in other Arab countries.




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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Why do you think that so many Palestinians live in Jordan?
I'm sure they're great fans of its government....
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Because
it is their country. Jordan is ruled by a bedouin family that has no ties to Jordan whatsoever.

If not for Black September, there would be many more Palestininas living in Jordan.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. It is NOT their country...
they are there largely because they were forced there.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Please back that up
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 09:25 PM by YANG
with research. The propulation of Jordan is 75% Palestinian. It is why that nation was suppossed to be the Palestinian homeland.

If you can cite facts to the contrary then feel free.


http://www.nationmaster.com/country/jo

}}}}}}}}}}}}
Jordan is a country in Arabia. The main religion is Islam. The main language is Arab. The British protectorate of Trans-Jordan became independent in 1946 and in 1949 was remaned into Jordan. For a short period in 1958 it formed a federation with Iraq as the Arab Union. The country is a parliamentary democratic monarchy dominated by the king.
Background: For most of its history since independence from British administration in 1946, Jordan was ruled by King HUSSEIN (1953-99). A pragmatic ruler, he successfully navigated competing pressures from the major powers (US, USSR, and UK), various Arab states, Israel, and a large internal Palestinian population, through several wars and coup attempts. In 1989 he resumed parliamentary elections and gradually permitted political liberalization; in 1994 a formal peace treaty was signed with Israel. King ABDALLAH II - the eldest son of King HUSSEIN and Princess MUNA - assumed the throne following his father's death in February 1999. Since then, he has consolidated his power and established his domestic priorities, including an aggressive economic reform program. Jordan acceded to the World Trade Organization in January 2000, and signed free trade agreements with the United States in 2000, and with the European Free Trade Association in 2001.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. That Is Not Quite Correct, My Friend
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 10:30 PM by The Magistrate
An examination of the history of Jordan, and the expressions of the English statesman who created it in 1922, make quite clear that it was not intended to be a homeland for Arab Palestinians. Following the French expulsion of the Hashemite Feisal from Damascus in 1920, the desert east of the Jordan River, a territory claimed by England, became a hot-bed of Arab guerrilla bands conducting operations ostensibly on King Feisal's behalf into Syria. As England was currently engaged in squeezing France out of various claims elsewhere in the Near East at the time, this circumstance constituted a potential flash-point that might ignite serious difficulties between the two counties, recent allies in war, but long rivals in this region.

Winston Churchill, as Colonial Secretary, conceived the idea of pacifying the region east of the Jordan by constituting it as an Emirate ruled by Feisal's martial brother Abdullah, who had been field commander of the Arab bands fighting the Turks, and was viewed as capable of commanding the allegiance of the tribes, many of which had supplied him with fighters in 1918. This plan was put into effect in 1922, over some objections by Emir Abdullah, who resented having no part of the Mediterranean coastline, and that Jerusalem did not come under his control. He was somewhat mollified by being allowed to forbid any purchase of land by Jews in his realm, a condition which the early Zionists viewed as a betrayal by the English government. This exclusion of Jews from east of the Jordan, in the view of the English authorities, either at the time or at any point in their administering the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine (the legal frameword for the Emirate's protectorate status), did not consititute a setting aside of the whole area west of the Jordan for the "Jewish National Home" referred to in the Balfour Declaration, and incorporated in the Mandate itself. Not only Mr. Churchill, but also Mr. Samuels, the first governor of the Mandate, and the person who had first proposed during the Great War the policy that became embodied in the Balfour Declaration, stated specifically on numerous occassions that the land west of the Jordan was to be shared between Jews and Arabs.

The question of a Palestinian population in modern Jordan is a somewhat vexed one. The original population comprised two distinct groups: agriculturalist and settled pastoralists living in the eastern portion of the river valley, and Bedouin nomads living in the desert beyond, many of whom made a practice of raiding into the valley, on both sides of the river, as opportunity presented. Both groups thus had certain ties of tribal and clan kin-ship across the river: however convenient for map-makers and border enforcement, the river line was not a very good one in human terms. During the Mandate, there was a good deal of permeability to that border, and in both directions. During the '48 war, a number of Arabs from Palestine fled into Trans-Jordan, and after that war, the remaining portions of the Arab Zone in the Jordan valley were annexed by Jordan, and its populace thus converted into a species of Jordanian citizenry. During the '67 war, a number of these fled across the river into Jordan proper. Thus, while some portion of the Arab Palestinian populace of Jordan could be said to stem directly from the time of the Mandate, being comprised of those people simply seperated by the river by their western kin, another portion certainly stems from refugees who fled their homes and entered the place, and for these latter, it can hardly be considered a homeland. In terms of numbers, by the widest construction of Arab Palestinian, these constitute a bit over half the population of Jordan today, which numbers a bit over five millions.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yeah well...
I don't think its fair that you pull that stuff out of your head when I have to google everything so I should get a "Special Olympics" dispensation and always be declared a winner just for participating.

Two things...

1) Eventually the West Bank and the East Bank will seek to be one state and I don't think that is going to go over well with the other Arab states in the region.

2) I try not to discuss the history of "Palestinians" as a people because it is thorny and leads easily to right wing hyperbole but it is pretty clear that there really is no such thing as a "Palestinian" although I find the argument moot, old fashioned and a little creepy. There is a large group of people who want to rule themselves and aren't allowing anyone else to do so. This makes them, in effect, a nation.



==
I have always understood the 1948 partition to mean that Trans Jordan was to be the Arab half of Palestine.

My favortie irony: When the PLO was trying to overthrow the King of Jordan and Syria was supporting the PLO, Hussein asked Golda Maeir for air support (thru British back channels). She declined because she felt Arafat was a more reasonable person to deal with. It seems she was wrong in that assesment.


Of course, Asad used the skirmish to ascend to the head of the Baath party in Syria and Hussein killed around 3,000 Palestinian fighters and exiled the PLO to Lebanon where they promptly began to fuck it up.

In retaliation for Jordan massacering so many people, the PLO killed Israeli Olympic athletes. Because that makes sense.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Thank You For The Laugh, Mr. Yang
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 11:37 PM by The Magistrate
It is unfortunate people in that region tend toward such long memories; they might have fewer problems if it were otherwise. The short attention span of our country may well be the foundation of its success....

The '47 Partition divided only the land west of the Jordan, into a Jewish Zone and an Arab Zone, with Jerusalem intended for international administration. The division is recognizeable from the present outline, except that the coast west of Gallilee was part of the Arab Zone, Gaza was a good deal larger, and the bulge towards Jerusalem was non-existant. In the '48 war, Israel conquered roughly half the Arab Zone, and that territory remains within Israel's borders, as recognized on its admission to the United Nations.

As you recognize, the people of Arab Palestine are effectively today a nation, albeit one without a state, and it does seem to me, at any rate, that they are a distinct people. The argument they are not could be made as effectively against any of the Arab nationalities, whether Syrian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, or Saudi. All these are in a real sense sub-divisions of one people, and the concept of seperate nation-hood came very late to the political conciousness of the region. Even then, the first stirrings of Arab Nationalism early in the twentieth century took a Pan-Arab form, and developed its local particularities only later after the Great War.

It has certainly been the desire of Jordan's rulers, from the first day's of Abdullah's Emirate, to incorporate as much of the land west of the Jordan as could possibly be contrived. Whether they will ever succeed in this is open to some question. A state of Arab Palestine would certainly exist under some threat from the Kingdom of Jordan.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. There are lots of Palestinians there, yes....
that doesn't mean they weren't forced there....

It is not the Palestinian homeland any more than Holland became the Jewish homeland when many Spanish Jews fled there in fear of the Inquisition.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I have to admit
the scholarship in your post is unassailable.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. I know comprehension is a difficult thing
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 09:41 PM by Djinn
but please try it makes conversation easier...

I said THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THE AREAS CONTROLLED BY ISRAEL that isn't "ceding" it's a a fact - The vast majority of the world does not agree with Israel's actions in the west bank and Gaza but they are - as pro-Israeli types aer fond of saying - "facts on the ground"

It's simple - in the areas in which the Israeli government holds sway over there are moer non Jews than Jews, there are also MORE Jews living outside Israel than within - including a shitload like my family who wouldn't live in Israel if you paid us.

Either way you choose to look at this though - and even if every single person living in Israel and the occupied territories (occupied by ISRAEL not some phantasmic being) was Jewish it STILL wouldn't make Israel synonymous with Jewish - or have you decided that all the Jewish folk throughout the world that are NOT supporters of Israel or are outright against Israel are not Jewish???? Gee that sounds a little antisemitic to me

Simple enough now?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. It Is A Debateable Point, Ma'am
Whether the majority of people in both Israel proper and the lands overrun in '67 are not Jewish. It seems to me there are about five millions who are not, and a bit over five millions who are. It is a narrow margin, in any case....
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Nothing simple about it
What does Ireland represent to you?

How about France?

Gosh, there are a lot of people who used to live in West Africa who don't live there anymore but West Africa is still pretty representational of West African blacks because, ya know, it IS.

Israel is the only place in the world where Jews rule themselves. It doesn't matter whether there are more Jews in New York or not.

As for the second half of what you said...what?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. Yes it is pretty simple
Israel does not speak for Jews - it doesn't speak for me or my family or thousands of other Jews.

It doesn't even speak for MOST Jews.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Not sure
what your point has to do with the article or anything for that matter.

If someone attacks the legitmacy of Ireland and says the Irish have no right to self rule then I can easily imagine any Irish person living anywhere, be it Boston or Belfast, taking offense to it.

It certainly doesn't mean that all Irish everywhere oppose abortion just because that is the voice of the Irish government.

So really, you are "arguing" against air.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. And...
the point is what? That Palestinains aren't Arabs?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. The point is that the Israeli government does not represent Jews...
it represents Israelis.

And regardless, the Israeli government is not equivalent to the Jewish people. Why does the speaker get a free pass when she equates the two, while others who make the claim are accused of anti-semitism?
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Hmmmm
Please quote me where you think the speaker did so.

Also, if you don't understand why Chris Rock can say, "If you want to hide your money from a n@#$$%^ then put it in a book." and I can't then Im not sure any 'splainin' will help you on that.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. How about...
"Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers"?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. In Fairness, My Friend
Not all Jews killed over this matter are Israelis, or even in Israel when killed....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. A question...
So do you agree with the quote Darranar posted?

Violet...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. With The General Thrust Of His Remarks, Ma'am, Certainly
The government of Israel is neither agent nor representative of all Jews, either in that government's current Likudist form, or in the control of any other Israeli political party, or even in the hands of a "wall to wall" coalition of Israeli parties. Nor is opposition to acts of the Israeli government inherently opposition to Jews.

There is, however, a tendency among some opponents to universalize their opposition, and extend it from the proper target of the Israeli government to Jews as a whole, and there are some whose opposition to Israel stems from its Jewishness, and is merely another form of expression for their Anti-Semitism. Many Jews are sensitive to this possibilty, perhaps to a degree a person who is not a Jew might deem unreasonable. Certainly some defenders of Israel take advantage of the situation to claim any opposition to Israel is rooted in Anti-Semitism, and it is not hard, unfortunately, for them to find examples useful to pressing the claim. Just as it is not hard to find examples useful to pressing a claim Israeli government actions derive from a bigotry towards Arabs among office-holders and officials and voters.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Well...
Edited on Sat Jun-26-04 06:40 PM by Darranar
There is, however, a tendency among some opponents to universalize their opposition, and extend it from the proper target of the Israeli government to Jews as a whole, and there are some whose opposition to Israel stems from its Jewishness, and is merely another form of expression for their Anti-Semitism.

That is certainly true. Such actions are condemned, rightfully, by many "pro-Israel" organizations and figures. What bothers me is when people like Dershowitz or papers like the Washington Jewish Week can do similar things with virtually no condemnation.

Many Jews are sensitive to this possibilty, perhaps to a degree a person who is not a Jew might deem unreasonable.

And perhaps to a degree that some Jews might find unreasonable, too....

Edit: I believe Violet was referring to the quote I posted from the speech.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. That's true...
However, what is condemned by the international community? Efforts by the Jewish community in France to stop anti-semitic hate crimes, or certain efforts in the Occupied Territories by Israel to supposedly stop terrorism?

Ms. Bayefsky is clearly speaking of the latter.

This sort of equation should not be condemned when done by political opponents and condoned when done by political allies, but nevertheless it is a favorite tactic of much of the organized Jewish community to do exactly that. The same is true of the dual loyalty debate; the accusation is slammed as anti-semitic (which it probably is) whenever it is made by some figure not known for his steadfast support for Israel, yet Alan Dershowitz can, almost without criticism, imply the same thing by demanding that the Democrats be "pro-Israel" in order to court the Jewish vote.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. it has to do
Edited on Sun Jun-27-04 09:49 PM by Djinn
with another poster making the point that it is erroneous to equate Israeli with Jew and that poster being slammed for it.

It's very very simple Israeli does not and never has equalled Jewish.

One large difference between Jews/Israel and Irish (to use your example) is that Irish is not a religious faith.

Many Jews never supported the creation of Israel in the first place, do not support it now and many many many more oppose the occupation.

Don't think this can be made anymore simple
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. You keep saying the same thing over and over
but still not really saying anything


Your point about Irish not being a religeon has nothing to do with what I said.

At one time, there were more Americans oppossed to an Awmerican state than there were supporters, yet here we are. Existing goes a long way towards proving that you should exist.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. I'm just not saying what you agree with
Edited on Mon Jun-28-04 12:16 AM by Djinn
Maybe if I put it in the form of a couple of questions I can stop having this pointless conversation.

Do YOU beleive that Israel speaks for all Jews?
Do YOU beleive that the term "Israeli" is interchangeable for the term "Jewish"

If so how do you explain the somewhat contradictory existence of Jews who oppposed the creation of Israel and oppose the very notion of a "Jewish" state?

BTW - you brought up the Irish - I agree they have nothing to do with this topic - and it's got nothing to do whether someone should or shouldn't exist it's about WHETHER "ISRAELI" IS INTERCHANGEABLE FOR "JEWISH"
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Im still trying to find
where anyone in this thread said that Israel speaks for all Jews.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. Perhaps if Ms. Bayefsky
had said for example, that

"stop condemning Jews for fighting back against their killers" rather than THE Jewish people for defending themselves, (for after all the quote does not mention Israel at all) your objection would be removed. Wouldn't it?

"Stop condemning the Jewish people for fighting back against their killers"?

Since slightly less than half of the Jewish population in the world lives in Israel, and the diaspora population is shrinking, while only in Israel it is growing, there may, in the broadest sense a great deal of truth in the statement. Only in Israel is there a Jewish Nation. New York city has the second largest concentration of Jews in the world. While a Jewish Mayor of New York is sometimes elected, other times not. It is not considered a Jewish city primarily. Therefore, the only nation of Jewish people is Israel.

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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. This should be a response to post #21.
Sorry for misplacing it.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. reposting
I'm still trying to find where anyone in this thread said that Israel speaks for all Jews.

then I'll point you in the right direction...

Darranar's post # 21.

"Why does she equate the "Jewish people" with Israel?"

Then drdon responded with post # 23

23. If you have to ask..... then I can't help you.



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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Why does Bush constantly equate
the United States with Americans? It must be some deep, dark, contrivance in order to hypnotize people and keep them from getting at the truth, that only Israel has an ethnic identity. In all the world, only Israel has an ethnic identity. No other state on this blue ball we call earth is considered a homeland for a particlar culture or group of people. This is why we must be wary of the Israelis, because they are so peculiar.

Perhaps it is because Judaism is a religion? Yes, other than Pakistan, Northern Ireland, Bangladesh and almost every European nation, half of Africa and about 1/3 of Asia, no state was started as a haven for a particular religion.

We need to start at the very beginning of this whole mess. First we'll give Right of Return to everyone in Wales, Cornwall and Brittainy. Then once the Norman and Anglo-Saxon hordes are pushed out of England we can turn our face toward the brutal occupation of Japan by the occupiers and return her to the Ainu. Then we can return southern China to the Chiang, currently forced to live on Taiwan after being swept aside by the Han invaders.

Then we can give Georgia back to the Cherokee. No...wait, we can't give Georgia back to the Cherokee, the poor indigenous Americans would be displaced. After all they displaced the Cherokee almost 200 years ago so its theirs now.

Gosh, I guess the only thing that will solve the situation is for the killing to stop. People are attacking civilians with bombs and your concern is that someone may look at your last name and think, "Hey, does Ariel Sharon speak for you?".

The simple fact is, the people who have sworn a blood oath to eradicate Jews don't particularly care which country you get your passport from. It didn't matter that Leon Klinghoffer wasn't an Israeli and he wasn't killed because he refused to tip the cabin boy.

After you get done telling me why Jews shouldn't be allowed to vote for themselves many you can convince the Kurds, Kashmiris and..I don't know...the Palestinians that just because THEY consider themselves to be worthy of self rule it kind of chafes against YOUR sensibilities and they should just make do by submitting to the will of people who wish to cause them harm.



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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. I'm sorry Yang
Edited on Wed Jun-30-04 08:57 PM by Djinn
but I have absolutely NO idea what you're ranting about now - and while I expect this post to be deleted any time soon I have to ask where you get this little gem from..

"Gosh, I guess the only thing that will solve the situation is for the killing to stop. People are attacking civilians with bombs and your concern is that someone may look at your last name and think, "Hey, does Ariel Sharon speak for you?"."

:wtf:

I think I might get what you're tilting at here but the thing is the Israeli left don't speak for me or mine either - it's not just a Likud problem

The only point that I made on this thread was that ISRAEL does not and NEVER has spoken for all Jews and that Jewish does NOT equate to ISRAELI.

It can't be made any simpler so I'm giving up now
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Simple is
Edited on Wed Jun-30-04 09:45 PM by YANG
as simple does...


and I accept your apology.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. There's an argument or debate
and then there's there's being patronising. I might get annoyed at it but it's actually kind of laughable being lectured about the history or the Israeli Palestinian conflict especially by someone who can not understand the not very complex statement that Israel and Jew are not synonomous.

Nice try Yang - bye
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. I never said I didn't understand
I just don't understand why you put so much energy into it.

and yes you have been patronising but it is to be expected down here, where one side is continually trying to prove how progressive it is by showing that it understands why people want to kill Jews so badly.

I have no recollection of "lecturing" you on the history of the ME conflict. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Well...
if Yasser Arafat did this he'd be criticized (rightfully).

When people attack Jews because they make that equation they're criticized (rightfully).

When posters on DU make that comparison they're criticized (rightfully, and often banned, also rightfully).

Yet when Ms. Bayefsky claims this, it's okay?
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. If Yassir Arafat did what?
equate Israel with Jews?

Do you think he draws a distinction between an Israeli and, oh I don't know, lets say a wheelchair bound Jew from New York on a cruise ship?

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Note that I said "Israel"...
meaning the Israeli government, not Israelis.

As for your question, I'm sure he does. He has some understanding of international politics, and is quite capable of distinguishing the two. Whether or not he cares who his attacks kill is another matter, which I find irrelevant both to my original post and to the conflict in general, since whether the person's an Israeli or a Jew, or anyone else for that matter, if the person's a civilian he or she shouldn't be killed.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Hmmmm....
"He has some understanding of international politics, and is quite capable of distinguishing the two."


yeah, a real international statesman.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #48
58. International statesman?
People can have some understanding of international politics without being international statesmen...

Violet...
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
73. Your points are valid
Particularly the nefarious issue of equating Judaism as synonymous with Israel. However, Ms. Bayefsky shifted her focus from bias at the UN to anti-Semitism in the Middle East to anti-Semitism on a global scale. Consequently I took for granted that her meanings would also shift. A higher standard of clarity is expected here because of the issues you raised.

While I have quibbled with some specific details of her speech (see above comments), particularly with respect to Kofi Annan and with her apparent implication that much of Israel's problems with the UN are due to Anti-Semitism and ignoring any culpability from Israel's own violations of the rule of law, she is still correct in that Israel has seen limitations in her international diplomatic efforts, including those at the UN, because of Anti-Semitism.

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. kick.......
for a friend.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
67. Me?
;)
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