I don' t want to hear any more about Muslim clerics who won't speak out

[keithyboy]

against Nick Berg beheading or any other thing the insurgents do.

Rabbi supports killings in Rafah
By Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank

Thursday 20 May 2004, 16:48 Makka Time, 13:48 GMT

Lior: Jewish lives more important than non-Jewish

A prominent rabbi has supported the killings of Palestinian civilians by Israeli occupation troops in the Gaza Strip, saying killing non-Jewish civilians is compatible with religious laws.

Rabbi Dov Lior, Chairman of the Jewish Rabbinical Council, was quoted as saying "during warfare, killing non-Jewish civilians is permitted if it saves Jewish lives".

(Sounds a lot like Osama to me.)

[corriger]

1. well, what do you want?

the muslim had nothing todo with this.

[liberalhistorian]

2. What he's saying is that,

while everyone is demanding that muslim clerics condemn what their brethren, or those who claim to be their brethren, are doing in the name of islam, and are condemning those who don't say exactlyw hat people think they should say, Israeli and Jewish clerics can get away with saying things like this and no one seems to even notice, much less care. That's the point he's trying to make, the double standard and total hypocrisy of it, it's not against muslims at all or anything like that.

Can you just imagine the shitstorm this would cause if a non-Jewish cleric had said this about Jews, that muslim/christian/fill-in-the-blank lives were far more important than Jewish lives and that for every muslim/christian/what-have-you life that was taken, more Jewish lives should be taken and that it would be justified to do so?

Seems to me the Jews have suffered more than enough of this shit for two millenia to make them realize just how bigoted and hypocritical and wrong it is for them to believe something like this.

[corriger]

4. yes, agree

[sir_captain]

5. Um, who says that actual real-life Jews

like me, don't realize that Rabbi is just as bigoted as Clerics who don't speak out against violence?

I really don't think it's fair for you to generalize like this...

[liberalhistorian]

10. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to seem

to be generalizing; I meant those who condemn muslim clerics for not speaking out the way they think the clerics should but who don't say anything about the bigoted statements of christian/jewish/other clerics. I didn't mean every Jew or every Christian, etc. I'm a Christian who's considering leaving my church of ten years because of its pro-war and pro-Israeli stances.

[sir_captain]

11. It's cool

I know you meant well--I just think you should try to phrase your valid criticisms in such a way as not to lump reasonable people in with the nuts, you know?

[corriger]

6. it seriously

sickens me to see shallow people like the americans president --well I was going to write more. Bollocks.

[liberalhistorian]

13. That's okay, it sickens

pleny of us Americans as well! You're certainly not alone in that. That ($%#((@)(*%#% THING in the WH, who stole the presidency in the first place, has done more to divide us as a nation than anyone or anything else in a very, very long time. For those of us who dearly love our country, it's beyond depressing, it's damn heartbreaking.

[KharmaTrain]

12. Betwixt & Between

As a human, I'm outraged by that Rabbi's statement that one person's life is worth more than another based on a religion or nationality or any other artificial label. As a Jew, I'm double outraged for some of the reasons you state above and more.

In her last days, my grandmother related how Russian Cossacks would ransack her village for no other reason than she and her family were Jews. I've experienced anti-semetism in many forms (most by those who are ignorant and assumed certain stereotypes to be real) and have learned to seperate the hate-speak that is intended to destroy as opposed to that bred out of centuries of rhetoric and misunderstandings.

I also have serious issues with the Orthodox Jews...more so than with any other religious group. Many of these people give fuel to Likkud and their racist policies and do feel they are "chosen" and thus superior to others...including other Jews. To them, if you don't observe the way they do, you aren't a Jew. If you're a Conservative, Traditional or Reform Jew, you're not a Jew.

It's a mindset that used to live very isolated even within the Jewish Community, but has become louder and louder over the past two decades...along with the rise of Likkud. It's frustrating as Jews fought for most of the 20th Century to gain some peace and equality, and it took 6 million dead to do it, then to turn around and become the tyrants you resent is very, very, very disheartening.

[liberalhistorian]

14. It's very, very disheartening and

depressing to me as well, since I'm more than familiar with the history and sordid details of what Jews have suffered worldwide at the hands of those individuals and nations who thought the same way as this rabbi. It also gives fuel to genuine anti-semites, who can now point to this and say something like "see, this is the way they feel as well, they're just as bad", and who can use it as justification for their hatred and persecution.

BTW, IMRadioactive, there's a poster on the forum-which-must-not-be-named who wants to take you up on your offer of a few weeks ago (on a thread about chickenhawks) to pay the way to Iraq of someone who was for the war in Iraq. TXLib and I PMed you last week about it; PM me for the details. I hope you were serious, because if you weren't, that really makes us look bad.

[KharmaTrain]

16. A Great Point...

For a long time I felt it was the anti-semites who fed the Arabs who fed worldwide anti-semitism (and it was viscious against Israel in the 70's and 80's) that I felt wasn't justified as Israel's actions in those days were mostly defensive. Not anymore. There's no way anyone can justify what the right wing in Israel has done, not only to the Palestinians but Jews as well.

Having traveled through Israel for a summer, I know the dimensions we're dealing with here (so few Americans really know how small and compressed that part of the world is) and neither side can survive without working with the other. I still feel that way and remain hopeful that someday sane and rational thinking will overtake the power and arrogance that is the Israel government now.

Regarding that offer. I got TXLib's PM, but not yours. I looked at the website and the post and saw right off the bat the person completely distorted my post and "offer". For others on DU, and it still stands...I will gladly buy the plane fare for any Chickenhawk from any city in the U.S. to Baghadad...ONE WAY. I'll even drive them to the airport.

While I browse other boards, this is the only one I post on these days and, even then wonder why I do. I'm not out to fight, but to exchange ideas. If I want to screetch with the monkeys, Yahoo and AOL offer lots of opportunities. Now, if this person would like that one-way ticket, I stand by the offer. And now I expect this post to be distorted as well. Another reason I don't play the gotcha games.

Cheers.

[Djinn]

3. what gets me about the "muslim leaders have to speak out"

squawk (and it's prevalent here too) is that plenty of them HAVE - but unlike the Catholic Church or the C of E there is no "supreme" leader of the Islamic faith, so when local clerics speak out they're generally NOT going to make in onto the 6 o'clock news.

If you'd gone into any of about 99.99% of Mosques on the Friday after 9/11 for example you would have heard prayers for teh American people - it just isn't news until some Wahhabist freakshow says something bigoted, how about we start putting EVERY quote from every bigoted Christian/Jewish/Hindu etc leader on the news?

[seabeyond]

7. tit for tat

then equally killing the non muslim civilians is ok too. hey wait that is what they are doing and the jews are yelling so about

ya, this is gonna work

[corriger]

8. what do you talk about?

[corriger]

9. sorry,

I really even despise to discuss such topic with americans.

[seabeyond]

15. where are you from

no worry. i was being a little smart aleck. saying the palestinian suicide bombers kill the innocent and now the rabbi says ok for them to do too.

kinda like saying stopping a torturer, only for americans to be the torturer.

none of this works. no one wins.