Barenboim irks Israelis with criticism

[JoFerret]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=ap/israel_barenboim

JERUSALEM - Controversial conductor Daniel Barenboim angered Israeli officials Sunday when he criticized the country's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as he accepted a prestigious Israeli award.

In his acceptance speech for the Wolf Prize at Israel's parliament, Barenboim said Israel's policy toward the Palestinians contradicted the humanist values on which the state was founded in 1948.

"Can a situation of occupation and control of another people be reconciled with (Israel's) declaration of independence," he said. "Is there logic to the independence of one people at the cost of a blow to the basic human rights of another people?"

Education Minister Limor Livnat responded, to a round of applause from the audience: "I want to express my regret that Mr. Barenboim chose to use this stage to attack the state of Israel."
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[fertilizeonarbusto]

1. YES

Not only a great artist, but a great man. Grazie, maestro.

[WillParkinson]

2. Perhaps not the right venue...

But heaven forbid anyone should verbally attack Israel or the US.

[Jim Sagle]

3. Barenboim ain't nuthin' but Nazi-luvin' filth. He's the piece of shit

who sneaked a Wagner concert into Israel. Fuck'm. :puke:

[Just Me]

6. Huh?

A Jewish guy could be a nazi-lover?

I suppose anyone could be either a nazi-lover or a nazi,...if they tried hard enough,...some probably don't have to try at all to be nazified by simply replacing one peoples in exchange for another (i.e. replace Jews with Palestinians or "liberals" or Arabs or take your pick).

[pop goes the weasel]

8. fer cryin' out loud

Guilt by association by association.

Yes, Wagner was a racist nationalist. So was Kipling. It was all the rage in the late 19th century. And Salvador Dali was an actual nasty little fascist. They were still good artists. I'm sure we can add to the list of people with ugly thoughts who still created beautiful art.

Barenboim should be commended for his ability to appreciate beauty wherever it comes from.

[Jim Sagle]

9. YMMV.

[Capt_Nemo]

20. And how about the creator of the carachter from which I took my DU name?

If you read Jules Verne's "Hector Servadac" you'll discover that he
was also an anti-semite.
In fact he was pretty much a racist, there is another novel where
he portrays the black servant of an american baloonist in a
most disgusting stereotypical manner.
Let's face it: racism and, particularly, anti-semitism were widespread in XIXth
century Europe, and were not a contencious matter. It was the fact
that such attitudes were so widespread and accepted that lead inevitably to
the great catastrophes of the XXth century: WWI, the rise of fascism and
WWII.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoFerret]

11. Great sarcasm Jim

I think some missed it

[Zhade]

12. I've read Jim's posts. I don't think it's sarcasm.

On other issues, Jim seems fairly rational. On Israel, he seems out to lunch - which is a shame, because his other posts are fairly balanced and logical.

[Jim Sagle]

22. Now wouldn't it be a drag if we all agreed on everything?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mulethree]

13. Why would it be necessary to sneak?

He hated jews so his music isn't beautiful and uplifting? I can't think of anything anti-semitic about his operas. I don't speak German is there some innuendo in his opera's that does not translate to english? or are the Teutonic themes considered some kind of proto-arianism?

[Karenina]

17. Maestro Barenboim

is an INCRDIBLE human being who has been instrumental in raising a much-need discussion of the dynamics of artists and their politics.

[ozymandius]

14. Wagner is beloved by many Jews.

Conductor Bruno Walter chose his last name after the lead character in Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nuremburg. Walter was Jewish.

Composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein, observant son of Russian Jews, loved Wagner and the nation Germany became after the war. When asked how he regarded Germany upon his first guest conducting appearance with the Berlin Phiharmonic, he said, "These are my brothers. My musical brothers."

Barenboim broke ground with his scandalous use of Wagner in a concert in Israel. Since then, Wagner's music has become an accepted part of the standard concert repertoire in Israel. So I say kudos! to maestro Barenboim.

[Matilda]

16. Wagner undoubtedly did hold anti-semitic views, but

that didn't stop him hiring Jewish musicians.

Music is a unifying force, not a divisive one - I guess that's what
Barenboim is saying.

More power to him.

[gate of the sun]

15. well apparently they liked him

so speaking out now deserves a fuck you? I'm glad he took the opportunity to speak out.

[Vladimir]

19. And what exactly was wrong with Wagner?

so he was an anti-semite - this is about his music, not him. Would you refuse to look at a Picasso painting because he was a sexist who solicited prostitutes? What about Mayakovski - you won't read his poetry because he loved Stalin? What artist exactly passed your moral test of purity?

I mean honestly, if we are going to ban/boycott artists for political motives, how are we different from the RW?

PS Obviously, if someone makes art with a clear intent to incite racial hatered, that is different. But you can hardly claim Wagner or most other artists guilty of that...

[elsaamo]

25. The problem wasn't that he was an anti-semite

I strongly agree that banning and censorship ofany art is wrong, but the problem with Wagner wasn't that he was an anti-semite, but that his music was played in concentration camps as propoganda, and for that reason, as a sign of respect to the many Holocaust survivors in Israel, they did not play his music. As I said, I'm fully in favor of free artistic expression, but I certainly understand why they set up that rule, especially considering this is really the last few years of Holocaust survivors' lives, it does seem a bit distasteful what Birenbaum did. I think he should have the right to do so, which he did, by the way (people criticized him but he was allowed to do it), but I am not so sure if he did the right thing.

[ze_dscherman]

21. Should Shakespear plays be shunned because of Shylock?

Interesting discourse, including Wagners value to the Nazis, in this article: http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=772

[maddezmom]

4. Mofaz: Gaza is not the land of our forefathers

~snip~
Gaza is not our birthright nor the land of our forefathers, and we will not be there within five years. The same process will happen in other places too," Mofaz said.

Deputy Education Minister Zvi Hendel (National Union) attacked Mofaz's statements, saying that the minister of defense was "encouraging terrorism."

"What is a potential terrorist to think, when Jews are being murdered and the minister of defense says that the wonderful, brave settlement in the Gaza Strip is temporary," Hendel said on Army Radio.

The deputy agriculture minister added that the defense minister should stick to security matters, and not political ones.

~snip~
more: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1084160735515
~~~~~~

It's the "you're either with us or against us" mentality...seen in the US and Israel.

[Just Me]

5. Thank God for courageous voices of reason and compassion.

Geez,...I wish they were more valued in this crazy, upside-down world of,...ahem,...?countries? of ours.

[Jacobin]

7. I applaud his bravery and convictions.

Speaking out in Israel or the U.S. these days gets you branded as "anti" or traitor

[Capt_Nemo]

18. A great artist and a true Israeli patriot

And isn't it ironic that those in Israel that get all riled up with Richard Wagner's
anti-semitism are the very same that justify the killing of arab civillians, regard them as sub-humans, aprove of the treatment of
arab israelis as 2nd class citizens and support an expansionist
policy whose ultimate result would be the ethnic cleansing of the
arabs in the West Bank... :eyes:

[elsaamo]

26. I have tried to take a lesson from

Magistrate and be more respectful, but I must admit that I have not yet reached his level. Please explain to me what mainstream Israeli justifies the killing of any civillian, regards any Palistinean as sub-human? How are Israeli-Arabs treated as second class citizens? The ones who are citizens have the right to vote, and have even gotten seats in the Knesset. Those who are not citizens, could be citizens, but chose not to be. How is that a second class citizen?

And I am assuming you simply misunderstood the article, but the criticism was not that Wagner was an anti-semite, but rather, his music was not played in Israel in respect to the many Holocaust survivors who heard his music as propoganda by the Nazis in the concentration camps. I am not in favor of artistic limitations in any way, though I must say that Birenbaum's actions were slightly distasteful, though I still defend his right to do them (as did, I might add, the very people who complained. They felt he acted insensitively, but did not call for it to be banned).

[tinnypriv]

24. Livnat is a stalinist

What do you expect.