Israel orders owners to hand over 'Jerusalem fence' land

[QuietStorm]

reported on googles to have come in 4 hours ago


Jerusalem,Tuesday, August 19, 2003: Israel has ordered owners to hand over land on which it proposes to build a fence between Jerusalem and the West Bank to thwart would-be suicide bombers from entering the city.

Most of the expropriation orders are for land inside the West Bank, but a few are for land inside parts of Jerusalem, 'Ha'aretz' daily reported today.
The so-called 'Jerusalem envelope' fence will put some 50,000 Palestinians from the West Bank on the Israeli side of the barrier while leaving tens of thousands of Arab residents of the capital cut off from relatives, schools and jobs, the daily said....

http://www.ptinews.com/nextstory.asp?main=International&ID=5437&rec=none

[Resistance]

1. And in the face of all this

Some will still try to claim that "there is no ethnic cleansing" (a pathetic lie which I don't think they themselves actually believe)

[quilp]

2. Israelis do not ethnic "clean"!

They steal land, drive people off it, kill those who protest, put the people who's land they'll steal next in caged areas, humiliate them at every opportunity, and demand concessions for peace. I can't see where the word "clean" applies.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. So fresh from a terror attack

It's just amazing how many don't see the need for a security wall.

[atreides1]

4. You Mean....

....like the security wall in the Warsaw Ghetto?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

6. What is pathetic

is the stubborn inability to see the obvious parallels

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. I see the obvious parallels

There were some sick ass people who tried killing Jews then and, sad to say, there still are.

[Resistance]

9. what you ignore

is there are some sick ass people trying to kill Palestinian Arabs and steal their land (and doing a fine job of it with the full backing of the United States) -- either you are ignoring this, or it's alright with you under the excuse of "self defense"

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. You seem to forget several wars

The Palestinian leadership has a tradition of siding with the wrong folks in war and, as a result, lost land in the conflict. If they ever wish to get a state, they will have to work out a peace agreement with Israel. And every day, that gets harder.

[Resistance]

15. Are you about to start defending Israel's history of land theft now?

Talk to me about history when you've actually read some of it, ok?

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. You are a comedian

One of these days you will get serious. Then watch out!

[Jackie97]

23. Should all Palestinians pay for what the Europeans did?

.

[western mass]

11. not so much stubborn as...

I think "stubborn inability" doesn't scratch the surface... perhaps "incomprehensible psychological block"?

[mike_c]

12. or like the Berlin wall....

One day free Palestinians will have just as much fun tearing this one down....

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Might be more difficult

If JUST the Palestinians try it, the body count would be enormous. They need to find peace with Israel and they seem uninterested in that.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

16. Did you get this insight from King's teachings?

Thats right, King did not have to face Hammas, wasn't it?

enjoy the ethhnic cleansing while it lasts.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Nations ARE allowed self defense

And my comment was entirely in reference to Palestinians attacking the border wall that is designed to protect Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. How one-sided is that?

How come it's only the Palestinians who need to find peace with Israel? How come there's no onus on Israel to also find peace?


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. Because Israel already exists

And a Palestinian state does not. If that Palestinian state is to come into being, the Palestinians need Israel's help. Otherwise it won't happen.

Beyond that, the state will be stillborn if the Palestinians can't learn to work with Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. It doesn't work like that...

There is no auto-immunity for a state working towards peace just because they are a state. Peace isn't some one-sided thing and it takes two to tango. Saying what you just did is no different than if someone a few years back had said that the East Timorese needed Indonesia's help to become a state. Yuck...

Violet...

[quilp]

18. Find peace with Israel or the "body count will be enormous".

Sharon couldn't have put it better!

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Nice way to warp my words

And my comment was entirely in reference to Palestinians attacking the border wall that is designed to protect Israel. If they attack it, they will regret it.

[quilp]

31. Yes! With bullets paid for by me in my taxes!

I know what your comments refered to. That "border" is just another way to steal more Palestinian land and you KNOW IT!

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Lacking a partner to make a border with

Israel made one. If the Palestinians don't like it, they should work out a new formal one in a peace treaty.

[quilp]

33. If the Jews didn't like Germany in the 1930s should have emigrated!

Every bit as real and as callous as your suggestion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Nowhere near it

If you have positive suggestions, please post them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=205669

[quilp]

35. To negotiate a "Peace Treaty", or anything else, you need power.

The Palestinians have none. The Israelis know this and act accordingly. You know this which is why you say the things you do.

All the Palestinians can "negotiate" is total surrender, which is all the Israelis are interested in. No "road map" is going to remove the "settlers". I know this which is why I say the things I do.

But this is being done through my taxes, I am again supporting ruthless rightwing thugs like Sharon. I have to listen to his arrogance backed by American military and economic might. Just like Saddam, Noriega, Peron, and all the other rightwing thugs America has supported in the name of "democracy".

[Equinox]

36. Oh...really? All the Palestinians have to do is ask nicely?

And they'll get there land back?

Wow....

[Aidoneus]

7. this and the bomber from Nablus..

both were right after IDF operations in various places in the West Bank, do you see a relation or are they random/unprovoked acts? On both occasions of ceasefire violations, there followed immediately humanbomb acts... surely no connection there and these facts are unreleated.. the wall has to go up so the IDF can shoot with impunity?

[quilp]

10. "Security Walls" are built around your own country.

Not someone elses!

[StandWatie]

19. exactly..

at least watching them do it with a physical barrier this time illustrates that Oslo was about building a prison, but last time the goal was to do it without building the walls, just using settler roads, settlements, and IDF bases.

[quilp]

20. Did Jews in European Ghettos see the walls around them as "security"?

I doubt it. And history sure made the point. It is beyond me why the Israelis don't learn from Jewish experience.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. "They're the victims"

Takes a lot of gall to say that today of all days.

Try telling it to the people in that bus, but say it loud, they might not hear you. Those that lived I mean.

[Aidoneus]

28. <shrug>

from a thread earlier today,
Since the commencement of the ceasefire (which applies only to Palestinians) on June 29, Israeli soldiers and settlers have killed 17 people (including 7 children), wounded 437 (including 88 children), arrested 593 people, confiscated 4,457 acres of land for Jewish settlements, bulldozed 987 acres of farmland, destroyed 12,462 trees and destroyed or damaged 253 houses.

[Jackie97]

41. That's my point.

I'm sick and tired of Israeli lives being the only lives considered worthy enough to live and to have a normal life.

[Jackie97]

40. I know it hurts....

I don't want people to die in Israel anymore than you do. I also don't want the victimization of the Palestinians to be suppressed into the lie that Israel is the main or only victim anymore when Israel is the one who won't make peace.

It's like the September 11'th attacks. I was numb for a few days, and many people took/take it personal to say that U.S. Policy brought it on.

The emotions and the numbness doesn't change reality though. The reality is that if Israel wants peace, then they're going to have to stop the occupation, stop making Palestinians homeless, jobless, sometimes waterless, and without electricity (A bombing might kill somebody right away, but having no food or water can bring on a slower death), and other crucial things, then there will probably remain to be bombings.

I don't like it anymore than you do, but it doesn't help to only care about the Israelis. It doesn't help the Palestinaians, and it doesn't help the Israelis.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

37. No F@cking Way!

You're shitting me right. Muddle is not black, really?

check this out from LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=74932#75573

"True in part
But a couple points:
* Sharks are inherently dangerous and, if they pose a threat to swimmers, I would kill them off.
* I don't ask swimmers to kill themselves rather than offend sharks."

Like white america should kill blacks to protect them from themselves...just check the statistics afterall.

Mindnumbing, the lack of appreciation of people's own history.

[newyorican]

38. I tend to agree

don't believe the hype.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

39. Is Jackie assuming?

my post was based upon her knowing this based upon him saying so.

There is a difference between ignoring ones own history and using an 'idol' to camouflauge oneself - although I do believe admiration of King is open to everyone.

We are all one people after all.

B

[Jackie97]

42. I think he's probably black....

Believe it or not, some black people can be like Muddle. Consider Colin Powell.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

43. In your opinion

would someone 'using' a pacifist idol of one's own culture, as opposed another culture, and express a consistent opposing view to what that idol is most revered for, be a worse form of hypocrisy?

Not sure myself

[Jackie97]

44. MLK is getting to be like Jesus....

People are recreating him in their own image. I've seen both pro-Palestinians and pro-Israelis use MLK for their politics. It's crazy.

[Darranar]

30. More "security efforts" by the GOI...

perhaps next they'll nuke the West Bank to prevent suicide bombings.