Cry, the beloved two-state solution

[Alex88]

"As negotiations with the Palestinians lurch forward and the separation wall snakes its way through the West Bank, two veteran leftists have reached a startling conclusion: There cannot be two states for two peoples in this land."

"Meron Benvenisti and Haim Hanegbi did not exchange views. Benvenisti lives in Jerusalem, on the edge of the desert, and is trying to write a last book, a summing up. Hanegbi lives in Ramat Aviv, not far from the sea, and is trying to formulate a last, definitive, manifesto. Yet this summer both Benvenisti and Hanegbi reached an intriguing point in their conceptual development. They both reached the conclusion that there is no longer any prospect of ending the conflict by means of a two-state solution. Each of them separately has come to believe that the time has come to establish one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea: a binational state.

On the face of it, they come from utterly different worlds. Benvenisti's roots lie deep in the old Zionist establishment. He was the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kollek's right-hand man, a candidate of Ratz (the predecessor of Meretz) for the Knesset. Hanegbi, in contrast, is a retired revolutionary. He was a central activist in the radical-left Matzpen group, one of the founders of the Progressive List, a partner in the leadership of the peace movement Gush Shalom. However, Benvenisti and Hanegbi also share a
deep common background. Both are from Jerusalem and are graduates of the city's Beit Hakerem high school, both are Ashkenazi-Sephardi whose ideas were shaped in the latter stages of the British Mandate period. And both of them love this land and love human beings. Both are surging rivers of emotions and stories and sheer human vitality.

It's precisely because they are not cut of the same cloth, because they are not from the same ideological circle, that the parallel, albeit not identical, processes they are undergoing are so fascinating. True, they are both end-figures, lone wolves, sensitive
sentimentalists who are sometimes perceived as eccentrics. Nevertheless, each is an original thinker with finely tuned senses. Both have a knee-jerk aversion to falsity, whitewashing, and uniform thought. So perhaps the fact that the two of them arrived during the past year at the conceptual place they now occupy is of some significance. Possibly it says something about the groundwater of the current Israeli reality."

much more-
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=326324&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[Jim Sagle]

1. Horseshit.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonder]

3. LOL LOL LOL LOL

The Plan.
> >
> >In the beginning was The Plan,
> >And then came the assumptions,
> >And the assumptions were without form
> >And The Plan was completely without substance,
> >And the darkness was upon the faces of the employees
> >And they spoke among themselves, saying:
> >" It's a crock of shit and it stinks."
> >And the employees went unto their supervisors, saying:
> >"It's a pile of dung and none can abide by the odour thereof."
> >And the supervisors went unto their managers, saying:
> >"It's a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that none can abide it."
> >And the managers went unto their division heads, saying:
> >"It's a vessel of fertiliser and none can abide its strength."
> >And the div heads went unto the directors, saying:
> >"It contains that which aids plant growth and it is very strong."
> >And the directors went unto the CEO, saying:
> >"It promotes growth and is very powerful."
> >And the CEO went unto the Board, saying:
> >"This new plan will actively promote growth and efficiency of this
> >organization."
> >And the Board looked upon The Plan and saw that it was good,
> >And The Plan became the official company policy.
> >And that, my friends,
> >Is how Shit Happens......

AND PEE PEE TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(and BTW - I have gone off topic... of the lead post that is)!

[bemildred]

4. Nice piece.

After all the hyperbolic rhetoric, it's nice to see a bit
of sanity:


In essence, the binational principle is the
deepest antithesis of the wall. The purpose of
the wall is to separate, to isolate, to
imprison the Palestinians in pens. But the wall
imprisons the Israelis, too. It turns Israel
into a ghetto. The wall is the great despairing
solution of the Jewish-Zionist society. It is
the last desperate act of those who cannot
confront the Palestinian issue. Of those who
are compelled to push the Palestinian issue out
of their lives and out of their consciousness.
In the face of that I say the opposite. I say
that we were apparently too forgiving toward
Zionism; that the Jews who came here and
found a land that wasn't empty adopted a pattern of
unrestrained force. Instead of the conflict
foisting moral order and reason on them, it
addicted them to the use of force. But that
force has played itself out, it has reached its
limits. If Israel remains a colonialist state
in its character, it will not survive. In the
end the region will be stronger than Israel, in
the end the indigenous people will be stronger
than Israel. Those who hope to live by the
sword will die by the sword. That is perfectly
clear, Ari: they will die by the sword.

Don't treat me as a stranger, as an outsider.
True, it's easier for me, because I'm from
Hebron and Jerusalem, from the Old Yishuv. It's
easier for me because I never took part in the
killing and the dispossession and the
occupation. All the same, I feel a commitment
toward the society I live in. And precisely
because of that, I believe that anyone who
wants to ensure the existence of a Jewish
community in this country has to free himself
from the Zionist pattern, has to open gates.
Because as things are now, there is no chance.
A Jewish nation-state will not take hold here.


Thanks.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Ooops

Sorry, but a Jewish nation state HAS taken hold there.

It's mostly some crazy Israeli idealists and a bunch of folks who hate Israel who are out there advocating otherwise.

[Darranar]

6. Uh, Muddle?

Do you consider me one of the above?

I'd be happy with a binational federalized state with equal rights for all. The one major problem is that it's impossible.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. You said it yourself

It's impossible. In the real world, a two-state solution isn't worth the paper DU isn't printed on.

[loquat]

13. A Jewish suggestion

This was first suggested in 46,or 47 by two American Jewish leaders.Turned down by the Arab leadership!

Those who do not learn by history are doomed to repeat it.

[Darranar]

15. And also by the World Zionist movement, I'd expect...

"Those who ignore large sections of history because it doesn't suit their made-up 'evidence' are doomed to be astonishingly ignorant."
-Myself

[bemildred]

8. In the real world,

talk is cheap. The fact is what is there
now is not a viable nation-state, and nothing
that is happening now is making it any better.
But dream on.

[drdon326]

9. bemildred....am i reading you correctly??

"The fact is what is there
now is not a viable nation-state" is referring
to israel??

[drdon326]

10. post deleted

.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Huh?

Israel is not a viable nation state? Could have fooled me over the last 55 years.

[Wonder]

22. Huh?

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. More insightful commentary

Thanks.

[Wonder]

28. don't mention it.

[bemildred]

82. Could have fooled you? Apparently so.

The economy is contracting at between 10% and 20% a year,
and has been doing so for at least two years, or so it appears
to me. Wages are declining accordingly. The already massive
requirements for external financial and military support are
escalating. There is no apparent clue in the current government
as to how this situation might be resolved, and the decay is
accellerating.

This is, in itself, more than sufficient to support my assertion,
but there are several other categories of similar issues that point
to imminent collapse, and that certainly make any assertion of
viability as an independant state laughable.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

83. playing Jeopardy...

What is the U.S.A.?...

[bemildred]

84. The USA has serious issues as well,

although its always hard to tell after circling the
drain for a long time when the final plunge into the dark
will come. But since the USA is THE major prop and enabler
for the current state of denial in Israel, that is part of my
argument too, that the ability and willingness of the USA to
provide a blank check for Israel in pursuit of its own (the USAs)
policies must soon come to an end.

Thanks for bringing it up.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

100. you're welcome...

the blank check certainly has it's price...

[bemildred]

102. Indeed, Uncle Sugar never gives money away without

expecting a return. But nobody made the GOI take it either,
and last I checked it was the GOI over here begging for more,
and I personally think they (the GOI) were fools to go down
that road. But what do I know?

[loquat]

12. Builders or D estroyers

In the 1500 years since the Arab imperialists first invaded the Holy Land ,how many cities have they built ?

Zero

[Darranar]

14. "Arab imperialists?"

I suppose you forget that the Arabs were more tolerant than any other group?

[loquat]

16. You Make No Sence

Treaty of Capitulation signed by theleaders of the Jewish community

Any property abandoned by fleeinbg Jews were confiscared.

Jews must use distinctive clothes

A head tax to be paid for all Jews in addition to regular taxes.

No new Synagogs to be built

Jews to provide free labor to build roads or cities.

Jewish tesimony in a court of law was inferior to Muslim tetimony.

etc, etc

[Darranar]

17. And under the Christians...

Jews were murdered and mistreated far more. I'm not sure about several of your claims, by the way. Are you speaking of the specific event mentioned above (Arab imperialists taking the Holy Land around 500 CE) or Muslim occupation of Europe and other areas during the Middle Ages?

[loquat]

18. From the history books

The treaty was with the first conquest of the Holy Land in about the 7th cent. The same basic polacies were followed for about 500 years.

What are you not sure about? I can give you the name of a few history books that will open your eyes.

[Darranar]

19. Umm...

I know of at least one Jewish community (and this is out of the top of my head) that flourished under Muslim rule but fell under Christian rule: the Jews of Spain. Explain that to me, please.

[StandWatie]

20. please..

I'm dying to read these history books, crank them out.

[tinnypriv]

29. I'm sure you could

But you obviously won't have read them yourself. That is trivially obvious from your previous replies on the subject.

[Classical_Liberal]

71. Much of Jerusalem was built by Arabs

The Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock being the most stunning examples.

[Wonder]

21. Agreed.

why does it stir such ire. this particular viewpoint?

[Alex88]

23. Yes

It is indeed nice to see that.

[jos]

25. This is the only solution

that will guarantee lasting peace and security.

Benvenisti is someone with great wisdom, and should be listened. His views reflect my thinking.

Great article! Thanks for the post.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Peace of the dead

For Israelis.

This solution will not happen. I continue to be amazed that some spend time advocating it.

[tinnypriv]

30. I agree

Colour me amazed. :thumbsup:

[Equinox]

31. One State, One Solution.....

I don't see what the big fuss is about. Some claim that it will never happen. Perhaps, because they don't want it to happen.

Peace and Justice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. I don't

I don't see how the epic hatreds of either side will go away. If this were to happen, I see horrible sectarian violence as both sides jockey for power. Ultimately, I see the Jews once again overwhelmed, murdered and wiped out in Israel just as they were in Germany.

Fortunately, I am not the only who sees this likelihood. Israel will never accept this and will fight it to the last.

[Equinox]

35. No one ever saw France and Germany get along...

same with France and Britain. The US and Russia. So on and so on and so on.....those that think the one state will never happen don't want it to happen.

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. So not the same thing

The French/German religious wars are done hundreds of years past. Like it or not, there is a major component of both race and religion in the I/P conflict that makes it impossible for both sides to be part of a one-state solution.

Israel has seen what happens when Jews have no true homeland. It won't let that happen again.

[Equinox]

39. Your argument holds no water.

I repeat if Germany and France can get along, then anyone can. All you need is time.

Fear will just prolong the inevitable and make it painful too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Truly no argument at all

France and Germany have many things that have brought them together over the years and the thing that drove them apart are long past. The common ground of both facing the Soviet menace for decades was bound to have helped.

But Israel and the many anti-Israeli Arab groups are different. They have no common ground, no common enemy and centuries of religious hatred.

Nope, not gonna happen.

[Equinox]

48. No no no no no...

Look, I'm not going to argue if it will ever happen. It would be nice if it did (and I think it should), but predicting the future is just not my forte.

I still have my opinion which is what really matters.

[Classical_Liberal]

72. What centuries of Hatred?

The Palestinians aren't Germans.

[Classical_Liberal]

73. I see horrible sectarian violence as both sides jockey for power.

I watch the news too.

[Wonder]

33. While this solution

would be an inspiring one. the way the matrix of control is set in place, unless true reconciliation is achieved, this would just through Israel into kind of a jim crow era. Palestinians would than have to protest for equal rights it would take another decade or two.

[Classical_Liberal]

74. Israel is already in this era.

The settlements can't be dismantled, so you end up with eiher one or two multicultural states.

[Herschel]

34. Unacceptable

Israel is the Jewish state. This ethnic flavor will not be compromised.

[Equinox]

36. So it shall be inherently racist?

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. As you know

Arabs already live in Israel. Arabs belong to the Knesset and can vote. It is not racist to say Israel is a state for Jews. Nor is it racist to say that Italy is a state for Italians (most of whom happen to be Catholic, btw.)

The Basques want their own state. The Irish got theirs. Hispanic Americans lobby for Azatlan. Various ethnic groups got their own nations when the Soviet Union died. In short, many ethnic groups strive for a homeland. The Jews, who have been persecuted for thousands of years, have a particularly strong need and are not going to give up what they spent 2,000 years getting back.

[Equinox]

40. First,

These people got a homeland on land they lived in. Second, you can't equate Italians getting a homeland or the Irish getting a homeland. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

Reason: None of those countries predicate their citizenship based on religion. They also, don't receive potential citizens from all of the world from different nations - being different nationalities and make them Israeli based on religion alone. There's your fundamental difference.

If you believe that Arabs and Jews are equal in Israel, I have some bridges for sale.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Homelands

Actually, I stand by my comparison to Ireland more so than any other nation.

Almost all Irish, to this day, are Catholic. (I am excluding the Northern Ireland contingent because they are not part of the same nation.) Ireland allows members of the Irish Diaspora to become citizens quite easily. If your parents or grandparents were Irish, you can get citizenship. If your great grandparents were Irish, it's a little harder, but it still can be done. So pretty much any son or daughter of Eire -- almost ALL Catholic -- can come home again Kathleen.

Ireland's big difference is that it has a wonderful water barrier separating it from the world. Israel would be much better off if that were the case.

Judaism is a unique mix of both cultural and religious heritage. That combination has a homeland. If you are either one or both, Israel has a place for you. It's not racist, it's survival. Where in history have Jews been shown to be consistently safe AND welcomed other than Israel? (Don't dare say the U.S. based on how few Jews we accepted during pre-WWII.)

[Equinox]

49. Ireland doesn't accept citizenship based on religion exclusively.

There's your difference.

Another difference is that the Irish were there and didn't "create a nation" on land that was dispossed. Quite different situations regarding Israel and Ireland.

The US did open up borders for Jewish Immigrants if I recall correctly. I also remember something about the "zionists" not wanting this accomplished because they encouraged immigration to Israel and they wanted the situation in Europe to provide just cause for this. I'll have to look that up but I remember reading about it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Not entirely different

How Irish do you have to be to be "Irish?" Not very. The difference is small. Since Judaism is both religious and ethnic and relatively few convert Jews move to Israel, we are mostly talking about Jews -- religiously AND ethnically.

Yes, Israel was dispossed thousands of years ago from the Jews. They have it back now.

As for open borders, the U.S. did NOT provide much help in that regard. Check out the Holocaust Museum if you like.

[Gimel]

57. Well said

And very true, Muddle. Israel exists as a Jewish nation-state, while peace has not been established with all neighbors or with the Palestinian population (refugees) who have declared their own state (according to President Arafat). Thus there are two states in the area once known as Palestine.

The Israeli authors don't actually claim that their are not two nations. What they are saying is that the two peoples cannot live in peace as partitioned states because of the underlying structure of their heritage, and claims on both sides (according to Hanegbi).

If there is to be peace, the two peoples must learn to live together. Giving up the concept of two nations would not ensure peace (according to Benvenisti). There would still be conflict, bloody attacks and struggle for identity.

The two nation concept provides a useful goal for cultural identity, however. I believe that it is an important stage. Yet all things are ephemeral, and eventually, if peace does overcome conflict, the borders that exist will not be defined by walls. There must be mutual recognition of rights, heritage and shared responsibility in building, rather than destroying the progress through enmity.

[Gimel]

78. Is Lebanon racist then?

Lebanon adamantly opposes the settlement of some
367,000 Palestinian refugees within its
borders. Most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims,
and their permanent settlement in Lebanon could
change the fragile demographic balance between
the various ethnic and religious groups within
the country.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/330069.html
______________________

The solution? Send them on to Israel. Is this for real?

[jos]

43. "Ethnic flavor"?

Try "religious state."

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Not hardly

I don't think I'll try it since Israel hasn't either.

[Equinox]

50. I heard on NPR about an advisor to Iraq

who hoped to create an Islamic Democracy there. I'm entirely opposed to this. Anything regarding religion should be completely separated from Government and politics. That would be a nightmare just as the last 55+ years have for Israel/Palestine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Isn't that up to the Iraqis?

I mean, can't they choose their own type of government?

[Equinox]

86. Apparantly not. We're choosing it for them.

n//t

[Gimel]

58. Ethnic flavor

A common religion is part of all ethnic characters that I know of.

[jos]

59. Huh?

Some Slavs are Orthodox, some Catholic and some Muslim. There are Irish and French who are Protestant, and Germans who are Catholic. Ethnicity doesn't require a "common religion."

[Gimel]

61. Modern v origin

Of course you are speaking of post WWII ehnic groups. Look at the origins for the ehnic character.

Some Jews have become members of other religions, as have Moslems and Chistians. All three religions are co-extisting in Israel. Yet, when you think of Israel, I'm sure you think of Jews.

[Equinox]

62. One can't help but think of Jews when Israel comes up....

after all..it describes itself as a Jewish state! You made his point!

[Gimel]

70. Not at all

Jos argued that ethnic groups do not require a religious form. If paganism or nature worship is part of a creation myth it is a central part of ethnic cultural development. Cross-cultural studies bear this out. I certainly did not make his point. You still haven't recognized what ethnicity is. The common traits and customs of an ethnic group are associated with a belief system, and a concept of creation and worship, or ritual relating to bring beneficial results for fertility, crop yield or personal power.

Customs become important for binding group identity and adhesion to cultural values. Acceptance of belief in cultural identity and purpose, based on revelations or divine teachings, is cental to ethnic identity.

You can wear "ethnic clothes" attend "ethnic celebrations" but you won't be part of an ethnic group if you don't accept the cultural history relating to identity of a religious nature.

[Gimel]

76. Palestinians complaint

They don't want to sing the Israeli national anthem and say good morning in Hebrew. Therefore they oppose Israel as a state and what to put Islam in the driver's seat. Would the star and crescent on the Israeli flag satisfy you? Would that make it a non-ethnic modern democracy?

I object to all democracies having to be the same boring, athiestic mishmash. Democratic is the form of govenment period. A democracy does not have to be the immigration policy or the dominant religion of a country.

[Equinox]

79. You are incorrectly assuming that the Palestinians,

want to replace the Jewish Theocracy with an Islamic one (which I'd be opposed to also). Most just want to live free in a secular DEMOCRATIC state.

What is your problem with that?

Why do you think that Islam is the main agenda here? Couldn't it just be justice and liberty that we are talking about? You wish to trump out the Islam card with no facts or substantiation. That is ridiculous. Anything to defend Israel right or wrong.

[Gimel]

80. some do, some don't

Some Plestinians accept a Jewish state, maybe more than 50%, yet some terrorists don't. They have a louder voice and exert more power and influence than the majority who want to live peacefully. And that's very clear. I strongly recommend a democratic Palestinian State, but there remain many problems with that. That is what the Road Map/peace process is all about. I'm for it, in case you haven't noticed.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. The Arab world

Well, even if Paletsinians simply want to crate an ARAB state, you can see why Israelis would be concerned. It's not like Jews are treated well anywhere in the Arab world. That is, anywhere where they haven't been purged or butchered.

Israel is the homeland for the Jewish people. Those who seek to change that seek only the destruction of Israel.

[Equinox]

87. One state, one solution.

n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Yes and we know what THAT solution is

So do the Israelis.

[Gimel]

85. Look again

Nowhere did I mention Islam or religion. It is culture that I'm talking about. In case you haven't ever visited the Middle East, the culture is very differnt than secular America. There is a secular Israel, that is against the background of a Jewish state. Saturday is the day of rest here, sir. The holidays are Jewish holy days, not the Christian Christmas and Easter. Where do you have a sanitized secular state? Where in the world?

[Equinox]

104. By the way Gimel....

In case you haven't heard, Palestinians aren't immigrants. They are refugees and victims on their own land. HUGE difference.

[Classical_Liberal]

75. It already is compromised. Look at the settlements

.

[Equinox]

27. Absolutely beautiful article...

I'm fond of this snip:

I am now reading a book by Eliezer Be'eri about
the beginning of the conflict and the start of
the Zionist enterprise. At one point, he
describes how, on November 3, 1878, as Yehuda
Raab tilled the first furrow in the soil of
Petah Tikva, he felt that "he is the first
person to hold a Jewish plow on the soil of the
prophets after the long years of exile." But
look what it says here: "Arabs also joined
Yehuda Raab on the big day when plowing began.
He himself, with his plow harnessed to animals,
could not have tilled an area of hundreds of
dunams. He was joined in the plowing by 12 Arab
fellahin."

What does that mean, Ari? You tell me what it
means. What it means is that when Yehuda Raab
came to till the first furrow after 2,000 years
of exile he didn't have the strength to do it
alone. He needed fellahin, and 12 of them came
to help him. Reading that, I tell myself that I
know all about Raab and who his descendants
were and I know how his project developed. But
I know absolutely nothing about the 12
fellahin. They appear in history as unknowns
and disappear from history the same way, with
hardly a trace. They were removed from history
by Zionism. Who were they? Where did they go?
Where are they today?

[Alex88]

44. One-state solution website

"one-state.org is a web campaign for one-state in Israel/Palestine. This website is a resource centre containing documents and programmes in support of the one-state solution. We explore binational and federal systems in our search for an alternative agenda to the two-state consensus that arose from the Oslo process. We are opposed to racism, Apartheid and partition; we believe in coexistence, peace and equality. Our aim is to demonstrate the secure, just and practical basis for one-state in Israel/Palestine."

http://www.one-state.org/

[Equinox]

51. Thank you Alex88...

I appreciate the link as I believe this should be given a real look at. One State, One Solution for peace for PEOPLE, not just Muslim, Jew, or Christian.

History is full of ideas that were abhorent to the masses. Yet these ideas are now reality. This is just another one of those situations, imo.

[the_sam]

46. I'd be happy...

With either of two solutions:

1. A secular, democratic binational state.

2. A secular, democratic Palestinian state encompassing all of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem; a secular, democratic Israeli state, with true equality for all its citizens and granting the right of return of compensation to Palestinian refugees.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. I guess

Then you are going to be unhappy. You aren't going to get either one.

1. A secular, democratic binational state -- won't ever happen unless Israel is wiped out.

2. A secular, democratic Palestinian state encompassing all of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem -- Israel will retain Jerusalem as it should.

a secular, democratic Israeli state, with true equality for all its citizens and granting the right of return of compensation to Palestinian refugees -- oh yeah, right of return will happen. LOL. And somehow I bet you don't consider Israel secular right now and its character is not going to change.

[Equinox]

52. Muddleoftheroad,

I believe it would be in Israel's best interest to agree to the One State solution.

What will happen when the Arab population in Israel proper threatens the Jewish majority? Transfer and subsequent admonishment from the International Community? More overt or covert operations to ensure the Jewish majority? More racist immigration policies? Expansion? What? Israel's future looks bleak if it continues to hold to the Jewish State philosphy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Overstated problem

There are about six million people in Israel and only one million of them are Arabs. Where is the problem?

[Equinox]

63. I'm not sure about the numbers...

...however, i'm sure there would never be a problem. (sarcasm off)

Look at history and it will tell you that at one point in time the Arabs outnumbered Jews in the very same land. Now if your numbers are correct, how did that become so?

Ahh...an answer for puzzling questions?

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Look at history

And at one time, Indians ruled America. Things change.

But, in the meantime, since we are NOW in an era of nations, that nation that is in charge of that territory is mostly Jewish and will remain so.

[durutti]

91. The Difference

The difference is that now we have international law, to prevent such things as the genocide of the American Indian by Western settlers from happening again.

That's not to say that Israel has participated in genocide, but that it has participated in settler colonialism, which is just as bad today as it was then (more, actually, because now it goes against int'l law).

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. No difference

International law is still a theoretical construct that is enforced unequally across the world. It's OK for China to conquer Tibet and Syria to rule Lebanon, but not OK for Israel to do anything.

Human rights violations go on daily in North Korea and China and all across Africa, but I don't see the international law doing anything about them.

[Equinox]

105. Strawmen!!!!

No one said it was ok for China to occupy Tibet! They should be held accountable too just as Israel should. However, this is an I/P board. Maybe the mods can create a C/T board for China and Tibet issues?

Strawmen dancing in the rain...strawmen...la la la al de da.....

[durutti]

90. Palestinians have more children

Palestinian Israelis generally have large families. The growth rate of the Palestinian population in Israel is 3.4 percent, one of the highest in the world. Jewish growth, in contrast, is 1.3 percent. The median age of an Israeli Jew is 35. The median age of a Palestinian Israeli is 14. The average Jewish family has 2-3 children. The average Palestinian Israeli family has 7-8 children.

If trends continue, Palestinian Israelis will outnumber Jewish Israelis by 2020.

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. Not possible

What population numbers are you using for your "Palestinian Israelis?" The Israeli population is about six million and five million of those are Jews. That leaves one million Arabs. It will take a hell of a long time for those two numbers to equalize.

I think you are using some sort of fantasy numbers that count ALL Palestinians as Palestinian Israelis. I'm pretty sure even they wouldn't agree to that.

[jos]

56. Why should they keep "East Jerusalem"?

It is Arab, and what is now Jerusalem is far larger than the Jerusalem of 2000 years ago.

I wonder what the man whose picture adorns your post would have to say about all this?

[Lurking Dem]

60. So if you

ethnically cleanse an area then you can claim it as your own. Good to know that.

[Equinox]

64. Why not? That's what happened prior to Israel's creation.

Is that incorrect?

[Darranar]

65. The Arab section of East jerusalem should go to the Arabs...

the Jewish section should go to the Israelis. The entire old city should be under a third party's supervision to protect holy sites of both religions.

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. No

Funny things happen when Jews are under the jurisdiction of other nations. Right now, Jerusalem is under Israeli control and that guarantees Jews and others access to all the sites. That is the way it should stay.

[Darranar]

69. Say I...

steal your house through some means. You cannot take it back. I let you sleep in it and use it, but I ensure that you know that it is mine, not yours. You know that if I wanted to, I could stop you from having it at my will, and you have no control over that.

I've been told before that I'm bad at analogies, but that's the best example I can come up with. The point is that regardless of access or lack of access, ownership still matters.

[durutti]

93. Ah, I see...

So Jews should be exempted from international law? Is that what you're saying?

After all, that is the jurisdiction of other nations...

[Muddleoftheroad]

96. No

I am saying international law is largely a bogus concept. And it is applied selectively, in this case, mostly to Israel.

[durutti]

98. Hardly

If international law is a bogus concept, then so is national law. But no one would say we should disregard national law, except perhaps if it conflicts with moral or ethical law.

As far as applying selectively... no, not really. General Assembly resolutions are non-binding; they aren't law, they just express the attitude of the international community.

UN Security Council resolutions are applied selectively, but not to Israel. After all, the U.S. has permanent veto power and a great deal of political and economic clout. It can (and does) use its power to protect Israel.

Turkey and Morocco also have a lot of Security Council resolutions of which they're in violation.

The reason Israel should be given special attention is because a.) Israel receives so much aid from the U.S., so Americans have a special responsibility to critically evaluate Israel's actions and b.) because, as "the only democracy in the Middle East", Israel should be held to a higher standard.

Of course, even if neither of those things were true, it would still be silly to say that Israel shouldn't be criticized because other countries do worse things. By that logic, Palestinian terrorism shouldn't be condemned, either. In fact, no country anywhere should be condemned, since there's always someone arguably worse.

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. Not at all

National law has police that enforce the laws nationally. Where are the police for international law? Can they arrest me in the U.S.? Not necessarily. Do they arrest the Chinese leadership for their endless violations of international law? Nope.

No, the reason Israel is given "special attention" is because it is the homeland for the Jewish people. The Arab nations hate Israel and since they hold much of the world's oil supply lots of other nations kiss up to them. Oh that, and tons of people still hate the Jews.

Yes, Israel is "the only democracy in the Middle East," but it should be held to the SAME standard as everyone else instead of penalizing them for doing better.

[Gimel]

101. Another point to consider

International law is made by humans who are prone to error. The remoteness of the Security Council from the problems of any particular nation cause them to make laws in a comparative vacuum.

Ideally, the 10 Commandments should always be obeyed. Ideally there should be love and peace between all people and no war at any time. So let us not raise a hand against a brother and throw rocks at one another.

When there is a process of appeal, consideration of circumstances and conditions such as self defense (murder might even go unpunished in such a case or with a lighter sentence), when the plantifs and the wrongs are known, then the international laws will be applied with justice.

[Equinox]

68. Agreed, Darranar.

n/t

[durutti]

92. Yup

My view exactly.

[Gimel]

97. Third party not ideal

In theory, perhaps, a "third party" would rule objectively. In practice, it would be a disaster.

Map of Jerusalem with Arab East Jerusalem and settlements marked.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/eastjermap.html

Jerusalem according to the PA:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/jerdistrictmap.html

Interesting, how Gilo and Har Homa aren't even on the PA map. If you can open the two maps side by side in your computer browser window you might compare the two areas.

[Darranar]

103. Almost any third party...

US, Arab states not included, would be better than the current rule by the Israelis or future rule by the Palestinians.

[durutti]

88. Response

Then you are going to be unhappy. You aren't going to get either one.

1. A secular, democratic binational state -- won't ever happen unless Israel is wiped out.

I wouldn't want one unless it had majority support from both Israelis and Palestinians. Currently, it lacks significant support from either side, so it's really a non-starter.

2. A secular, democratic Palestinian state encompassing all of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem -- Israel will retain Jerusalem as it should.

Why? Because the Bible says so? Great argument.

Jerusalem should be internationalized, as it is of importance to all of the Abrahamic religions. Furthermore, East Jerusalem has a majority Palestinian population.

East Jeruaslem was annexed in 1967. UNSC resolutions call for Israel to withdraw from territories captured in 1967. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

a secular, democratic Israeli state, with true equality for all its citizens and granting the right of return of compensation to Palestinian refugees -- oh yeah, right of return will happen. LOL.

If it doesn't, then the fighting will continue, as it should. It is racist to deny to Palestinians that which is guaranteed to all refugees under international law.

And somehow I bet you don't consider Israel secular right now and its character is not going to change.

A Jewish state is by definition not secular, just like an Islamic state. Its religious nature (and, more to the point, the influence of Orthdox Jewish fundamentalism) is evident in many of Israel's laws. There is no separation of synagogue and state in Israel.

The law of return is the most obvious one. All people born Jewish throughout the world get instant Israeli citizenship. Everyone else must go through a years-long naturalization process. Converts don't get instant Jewish citizenship unless they convert to Orthodox Judaism.

Yeshiva students are exempted from mandatory military service, but still get all the social services benefits that normally are available only to those who serve in the military. But Palestinian Israelis, most of whom don't serve, don't get those benefits -- even if they're studying to become Christian or Islamic clergy.

Almost all land in Israel is controlled by the Jewish National Fund, which won't sell land to non-Jews.

A number of Jewish organizations are designated quasi-governmental agencies, and act as official advisers to policymakers.

Non-Jews are disproportionately poor and unemployed. Services are not allocated for their cities and villages in abundance, as they are for Jewish areas. Dozens of them are simply "unrecognized", entitled to no Israeli government assistance whatsoever.

Even the idea that Israel has a right to all of Palestine is religious in nature. In the Old Testament, the Jews are allocated this area and more. But from archaelogical evidence, we know that Israel was never more than a large tribal kingdom, and that it never covered anywhere near all of Palestine.

[Classical_Liberal]

77. and I think the West Bank Palestinian one should give the option

of citizenship to the settlers. Lets have two secular states, one mostly jewish, but with equal rights for non jews, and one mostly arab muslim with equal rights for none arab muslims. The settlements aren't dismantaled, but opened up for Arabs to move in. The settlers have to decide whether they want to be Palestinians, or resident aliens, or leave.