Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Worse than anti-Semitism

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 06:00 AM
Original message
Worse than anti-Semitism

In November 2003, Neil Mackay, one of the editors of the Scottish Sunday Herald, published an article in which he recycled claims made in some Arab circles - that Mossad agents in the United States knew in advance of the terror plot to attack the Twin Towers, and did nothing to prevent it. Up to now this insane accusation was limited to extremist Arab propagandists and neo-Nazis. The Glasgow newspaper found it proper to repeat this canard, without citing its source, as an expression of faith in its accuracy.

The article shocked Labor MP Jim Murphy and Lord Greville Janner, Jewish leaders who protested, asking the paper's editor to print a correction. The editor refused, saying the report was based on verified sources. In his letter to Lord Janner, the editor asked him not to fall into the trap of Ariel Sharon, by condemning everyone who disagrees with him as an anti-Semite, even though Janner's letter contained no such accusation.

snip

The anti-Semitic tone of newspapers like the Sunday Herald negates the Jewish right to separate existence by delegitimizing the State of Israel, which is described - also with the assistance of Israeli academics - as a Nazi apartheid state.

The logical conclusion of the Sunday Herald's libelous article is that a democratic country that knows about a plan to commit mass murder in New York and does nothing to prevent it has no right at all to exist. This is worse than anti-Semitism.

This is negating the right of the Jewish people to self-determination. When such views are accompanied by a rise in anti-Semitism, it takes us back as Jews to dark days.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/394477.html


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, there are NO problems in Europe
Nothing to see...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Of course not
Europe is and always has been a paradise for Jews. Why they'd rather live in Israel than as a tiny minority in the Paradise of Europe is beyond me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. The French and Spanish are Jews' best friends!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. Most French and Spanish Jews' best friends, at least.
I'm sure most French and Spanish Jews have no desire to be friends with the hatemongers- fortunately, that still leaves the other 90% or so of the population to be friends with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. Well, I've never seen anyone here
actually claim there were 'no problems' in Europe, so that sounds like a gratingly dishonest strawman, but if that assertion has been made and I've missed it, then I apologise. My own position, for the record is:

1. The very real and serious problems caused by the bigotry of a small minority of Europeans are exagerrated and, simultaneously, cheapened by some- not accusing anyone in particular - who seek to vent their own breed of hatred by smearing an entire continent.

2. There is plenty anti-semitism, and in fact bigotry of all kinds in the USA - therefore soem commentators arrogant, complacent, sneering condemnations of 'Europe' or whole European nations are, frankly, cringeworthy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well
that is Haaretz officially deleted from my bookmarks. If they want to turn into the effing Jerusalem Post, then basically screw them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Just ignore
Anmon Rubenstein's columns, since they're overwhelmingly trash (condemning the Refuseniks, whitewashing the economic situation in the territories etc, so numerous and predictable he's becoming a joke).

While you're at it, ditch Nadav Shragai as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. For the facts:
"Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit? ... (provoking) a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide"

From the article cited as repeating a "canard" in an anti-semitic "tone" (emphases added).

Incidentially, the sources used were well cited in the article (though not using a scholarly apparatus, which would be insane for a newspaper).

:dunce:

Next.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. The facts are that it is flat out anti-Semitic garbage
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 06:02 PM by MikeGalos
And defending the weaselwords is hardly worthy of anyone on here.

Would you say the following is also not anti-Semitic?

Certainly, it seems, Jews do own razors and it is equally certain that they bake matzoh. But do Jews really murder Christian children to use their blood to make matzoh? ... That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide

If you can defend the first and not the second than you clearly think there's something valid in the horrible, racist claim that the Jews (and the full loony toons version doesn't just say Israelis) secretly blew up the Trade Center to promote their secret plan for world domination and destruction of the Arab peoples since the "tone" is the same and the validity of the "canard" is the same.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Eh?
You'll have to say that again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Is it anti-Pakistani or anti-Arab to...
...raise facts about their ties to 9/11?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
9. Gee aren't we lucky
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 03:18 PM by GabysPoppy
We are going to get a list of "acceptable" writers to guide us in what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for posting.

I guess it may start and end with Gideon Levy.

So much for "free press" as far as Haaretz is concerned.

"Good" when it agrees with my position and "Bad" when it doesn't.

Can anyone spell John Ashcroft?

sarcasm/off
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. The article says
that the Foreign Ministry is considering taking the Sunday Herald to court, but the problem is that it's only one of many attacks.

Well, take them all to court, and they'll have to reveal their sources. The truth will come out, and liars must apologize and/or put behind bars.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. They won't take them to court
Edited on Tue Feb-17-04 05:27 PM by _Jumper_
The Sunday Herald has the sources that, at the very least, make a strong circumstantial case for Israeli foreknowledge of 9/11. The mainstream media has swept this under the rug like it did with Pakistan's ISI's ties to 9/11 and the Saudi government's link to 9/11. However, enough has made it through the cracks to provide ample fodder for those that are trying to find out what really happened on 9/11.

Look at any comphrensive 9/11 site and you'll see the foreign links to it. Verify everything because there is some disinformation in there (such as the myth that no Arabs were on the hijacked planes) but most of the major things are verified by leaks in the corporate press.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. How do we know? Israel should ask Shrub to open the documents
A massive Mossad spy ring which was tracking Arab terrorists was discovered a few months prior to 9/11. Many of the agents were located in areas where the hijackers were. One lived a block or two from Atta. What were they doing there? We won't know for decades because the documents regarding it are classified and the media immediately dropped the story. However, if the vaunted Mossad, which was there to track terrorists, was so close to the 9/11 hijackers and didn't know what they were doing, its prowess has greatly been exagerrated. If Israel has clean hands, it should ask Shrub to release those documents and put an end to the rumors.

Israel conducted a terrorist attack on America in 1954, with the aim of blaming the Arabs (Lavon Affair), which would help it vis-a-vis the Arabs, and according to a former Mossad agent who wrote a book on the agency, knew about the terrorist attack on the Marine barracks in Lebanon but didn't warn Washington because it would help it vis-a-vis the Arabs. So we have a history here of an alleged ally killing Americans for its own interests. Israel knowing about 9/11 and not warning Shrub is not out of the question.

I guess all these outlets are part of the vast Arab conspiracy to get Israel:
http://www.antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html

You also have two instant messages sent to Israel two hours BEFORE 9/11. There were also Mossad agents celebrating the 9/11 attacks on a NYC rooftop. These aren't anti-Semitic myths. These are confirmed reports that were swept under the rug (like the stories linking the Saudis and Pakistan's ISI to 9/11) in favor of the official story.

http://english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/03/11/26902.html :

<INSTANT MESSAGE
Then there was the story about the two employees of the Odigo Company, an Israeli-based "instant-messaging" software company, with New York offices in the vicinity of the WTC, who received messages in the hours before disaster struck that the World Trade Center would be hit. I was so skeptical of this report, published in Ha'aretz, an Israeli daily newspaper, that I wrote the author: he confirmed the contents of these mysterious missives and cited his sources. In this context, the Washington Post story fit into an eerie pattern: it was not the final but the definitive piece of the puzzle: the piece that, once found and put in place, evokes an exclamation of "so that's what it is!" I was alone, at the time, in raising the possibility of an Israeli angle to the story of 9/11 v but not for long. >

Haaretz itself reported about the instant messages. It is comical to see the same newspaper denounce a British paper for saying that Israel knew about the attacks. The instant messages are one step away from being "smoking guns". However, we do not know who sent them. They could have been sent by the hijackers in an attempt to frame Israel. Nonetheless, the fact that this bombshell has been swept under the rug by the media and politicians is simply astonishing.

More from Pravada:

<A TRAIL OF CLUES
The suggestion of an Israeli connection to the events surrounding 9/11 did not spring, full blown, like Minerva from the head of Zeus. It had been hovering in the background, implied in odd accounts such as the one about the group of Israelis picked by the FBI after they were spotted in Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, laughing and giving each other high-fives as the World Trade Center burned on the other side of the river. In an astonishing story in the Bergen Record, we learn that 5 men described as "Israeli tourists," were picked up 8 hours after the WTC attack, "carrying maps linking them to the blasts." "Sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot. "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like Park."According to this account, the 5 "tourists" had been picked up by local police after receiving the following alert from the FBI:
"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center. Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals." >


Here is more about the "tourists":

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html


<Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. A box cutter was found in the van. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens.


"We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.">

Two of them were allegedly Mossad agents: http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707

<Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.



Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?>






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
18. Instead of a Haaretz
article claiming the Scottish newspaper did/said sonmething - could you post a link to the actual story so we could judge for ourselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Here you go
I quoted the concluding paragraph, above.

Full text: http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. thanks
if this article is anti semitic then so is the FBI and CIA - they were the ones that detained and investigated these people. This article just reports that they were detained and questioned (had they been arabs they'd STILL be in Gitmo) it also mentions reports in Israeli papers -are they also anti semitic?

If the info in this article is incorrect - ie israeli's were not detained, not questioned, not seen "dancing", the FBI did not put out alerts for "israelis arts students", if none of this happened then I'll agree that this article is revolting - if it did it's called news.

Just one interesting point: people where outraged when arabs supopsedly danced and cheered the 9/11 attacks but it's OK or atleast no big deal when these Israeli's did (whoever they are and for whatever reason they apparently cheered the deaths of 3000 people) and for Netanyahu to talk about how "good" it was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Read post #15
Five Israelis did tape and celebrate 9/11. Israelis were detained. There were Israeli "art students". Why do you think they are playing the anti-Semitic card instead of taking them to court? They can't win in court that's why. There is reason to, at least, suspect that Israel knew about the attacks.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-04 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. If it is indeed "libelous" as claimed
They should have no trouble in court.

I also think this "logical conclusion" is a leap worthy of an Olympic track star.Which kind of puts the whole point of the article in jeapordy,as he bases this thesis on said long leaps of logic (say that 3 times fast!).

For the record,I have heard/read these stories about Israeli knowledge of 9/11 and dont buy them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. The regime has decreed that the 9-11 events should not be looked into

too closely. Israel and the US have long enjoyed a very special relationship, and have a tradition of cooperation on projects both visible and covert.

As was noted during the run-up to the operation to secure American oil in its territory in "Iraq," the US is very attuned to the sensitivity of information that could prove embarrassing to its allies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC