Mourning Becomes Israel

[Scurrilous]

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/4495/

<snip>

"Two ceremonies on the same day, but what a difference!

At an Israeli Air Force base, the bodies of three soldiers killed on the Lebanese border were ceremonially repatriated. The bodies had been held for three years by Hisbullah (the “Party of God”), who also freed a rather shady Israeli businessman they had detained in Beirut. In return, the Sharon government released 429 prisoners, Palestinian, Lebanese and others, and returned to Lebanon the bodies of 60 Lebanese militants buried temporarily in Israel.

The Lebanese prisoners who were released by Israel arrived at Beirut airport at exactly the time the bodies of the three soldiers arrived at the Israeli air base. Television created a virtual reality: the viewer could be present at both ceremonies simultaneously. By a simple movement of the finger, one could switch from Israel to Lebanon and back in a split second."

<snip>

"It’s not about three bodies. The huge difference between the two ceremonies reflects this. It was not just a result of the different circumstances.

In Beirut there was an outpouring of joy. All the highest officials of the Lebanese state were there, as well as the leaders of Hizbullah – a movement officially designated by the USA government as a terrorist organization. While a Lebanese army band played marches, everybody hugged and kissed everyone else. Al-Jazeera TV brought the scene live to tens of millions of viewers throughout the Arab world.

The Israeli ceremony was entirely different. A scene of mourning and tears. The live prisoner, who returned with the bodies, was spirited away. The three simple boxes covered with the national flag (Orthodox Judaism forbids caskets) were lying in front. Opposite them sat a row of personalities with faces suitably grief-stricken for such a dignified ritual. Behind them, there sat hundreds of politicians, generals and the members of the bereaved families. The President of Israel, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff made speeches that were remarkably alike, as if one and the same person had written all four. They spoke about Jewish Morality and the Jewish Soul. They declaimed the old saying “He who saves one Jew is as if he has saved the whole world”, meaning the lone businessman who was returned. (“One Jew”, not one human being, in spite of the fact that one of the three fallen soldiers was not a Jew at all, but an Israeli Arab). The fallen soldiers defended our lives. The cruel enemy threatens to destroy all of us."

[Kundun]

1. There are some important <snips> in this article

[Scurrilous]

7. Well...

...some articles don't lend themselves well to snipping. Trying to condense the essence of this piece into the officially allotted 4 paragraphs was impossible.

[Dark Star]

2. Of course there was a

different reaction from the 2 groups.

One had 3 dead, 1 alive; the other had 429 terrorists back home, safe and warm, ready to get back to business.

The psychobabble in the article is absurd.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. How can Uri live with himself?

It's appalling.

[Blitz]

5. Avnery

Is a supporter of Israel's enemies who just happens to be a Jew. He is a propogandists who uses his skills and former stature to help in the destruction of his people and their nation. The fact that he is given a platform in Israel and spreads his propoganda without reprisal demonstrates The strength and depth of Israel's commitment to democratic principles. A writer criticizing and attacking the regime in the PA or Jordan or Saudi Arabia or Egypt or pretty much anywhere else in the Arab world in the way that Avery criticizes and attacks Israel wouldn't last much past his first article. He might not even live past the first article.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

9. Were they members of Hizbollah? n/t

[tinnypriv]

10. Although the question is irrelevant

And inappropriately formed, some of the 429 were members of Hezbollah.

The reason the question is irrelevant is of course because the poster referred to "429 terrorists", and the only way of determining that (taking Israeli claims at face value), is to refer to the prisoner list on the Israeli Prison Service site, and count 429 instances of "terrorism".

I could go into specifics of names and crimes if you like, and we can see whether you and the poster above would classify say, Mr khalid (ID: 941462376) as a terrorist and his crime as terrorism.

That'd sure be fun, since I did that with regards to another detainee the very moment the list was published, in another thread, which you can check with Gimel or search for if you like.

That would be a roundabout way of acknowledging every word I said, while simultaneouly agreeing that the phrase "429 terrorists" is a disgraceful inaccuracy. Let me know if you want to go down that road.

[Gimel]

11. In Israel

They were referred to as Lebanese prisoners. Not defined as terrorists. About 12 Palestinian prisoners were released also. I believe they were said to have committed security offenses, but were not identified as terrorists.

By the way, 2 or 3 of the returning Lebanese did not want to return, and were refusing to get off the plane.

[tinnypriv]

12. Well, you're flat out wrong

The overwhelming majority of those released were Palestinian, not Lebanese (371 Palestinians according to the Israeli Prison Service).

"Security offenses" is of course a term the occupation authorities use, and it is not a term of literal description. The reason is that Jews who throw stones (as Mr Khalid did, his single crime) are not classified as such. They are guily of "offenses", or a "public disturbance".

Morever, and irrelevant to that, Mr Khalid's crime was not terrorism, which is of course the point.

Finally, while most of the press in Israel referred to the prisoners as either "prisoners" or "detainees" (correctly), numerous opinion makers referred to them as "terrorists" (whatever their "crimes"), and the largest Israeli terror victim associations (Natal et al) petitioned the High Court to stop the release of "400 terrorists".

The latter are of course guilty of being disgracefully inaccurate, as is anyone else who uses the term "terrorists" to refer to all the prisoners released.

You can easily determine for yourself whether every word of the above is correct by consulting the list(s) of those released.

[Gimel]

13. Not the point in question, even

The question, as I understood it, was whether or not the detainees were called "terrorists". If opinions on various news outlets referred to them as "terrorists" that is something else.

The deletion of a previous post prevented me from understanding the original issue, and I don't know why you referred to me in your post. Please leave my name out in the future.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

15. It was

a personal request. It doesn't break the any rule that I know of. You were not addressing me, in your post, to the best of my understanding of it, nor any of my arguments, you simply threw in my name for no apparent reason. I responded to your post thinking you were requesting information about what was being said in Israel. Apparently I was wrong. You know all the answers anyway.

:puffpiece:

[tinnypriv]

16. Perhaps a clarification is in order

The reason I referred to you by name was in the context of the topic at hand, namely my statement that I had commentated accurately on the composition of the released detainees (most minor offenses, some not), published on the Israeli Prison Service website.

Note that you were the only person to comment on the lists at the time:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=49375

As you can see, and as I said, you can confirm whether or not Mr Khalid is guilty of "terrorism" simply by consulting the lists. The poster above (Dark Star), alleges that this is so (#8), I contend not, and I have the added advantage of knowing the facts, as do you.

Morever, though it is irrelevant, for what it is worth I think your perspective as an "on the ground" commentator in Israel brings out often useful comments and adds to productive discussion.

I'll ignore the personal comments.

[Gimel]

17. My comment

was not on the list, but on your post. You said that it was a joke if someone were to throw stones/Molotov. Which is quite presumptuous. Do you consider it a joke? Few are detained, you seem to think and though it is a common past-time, the explosive or incendiary devices are not always a joke. The IDF probably catches a few just as a warning. This man got 40 months. About half of the list is was to be release in the next few months, the rest by next year. Training as a militant or belonging to a militant organization is another charge. No, they do not have serious offenses.

Riding a bus as a civilian isn't enough to get a death punishment any where else that I know of either.

I don't know if it is "terrorism" as that seems to be a value judgment. The charge sheet says that #8 Samir Chagi was detained for 19 months for "placing an explosive charge on a passing army jeep".

I don't know where you find the name Mr. Khalid. If you are referring to no 8 on the prisoner list, it is Chagi, not Khalid.

The three that Pres. Katzav war asked to pardon, were those returned to Lebanon who had as was noted, guilt in the deaths of IDF servicemen.

[tinnypriv]

18. (#8)

Was a reference to Dark Star's post in this thread.

I gave the ID of Mr Khalid (above): ID: 941462376. He is No 27 on the list.

His sole crime (as I said, accurately), was throwing stones.

If you consider throwing stones in Occupied Territory to be terrorism, I think we may have some serious definition problems. I personally doubt even the ultra-right in Israel would claim that. Nor should they, since the cheapening the term would be an insult to the victims of real terrorism, namely those murdered in Jerusalem recently.

In addition, you have quoted me inaccurately. I said the crimes were "mostly" a joke. I do not consider throwing molotovs in occupied territory to be a joke, but as I said in the other thread, I do not consider doing so to be a "henious crime" either.

Finally, of course it is a value judgement. I've given you my values: throwing stones in occupied territory is not terrorism.

Dark Star clearly disagrees (in ignorance of the facts however).

You are not ignorant of the facts. So what is your value judgement on the sole crime of Mr Khalid?

Terrorism or not?

Bear in mind your answer will have to generalise in order to be a principled stand.

[Gimel]

19. Charges

Having found the person you are talking about, Mohamed Khalid on the list, he got 13 months for the throwing of stones, and he has been released close to 3 months early. Now as there are stones of various sizes, of various thrown at various projectiles, the actual charge is insufficient information as to the actual circumstances and effects of his actions. I would like to know his age, but it is not listed.

He could be a terrorist or not. He could be a leader teaching younger youths how to throw rocks in a way that are most effective, and how to get away (apparently he goofed up here). He could have thrown a rock that hit a soldier, or damaged the vehicle of the soldiers. There are many possibilities, and the story isn't told just by a the official charge.

There is no need, in my opinion to call him a terrorist, but his activities do not put him outside of suspicion, and he may become more closely involved with terrorism in the future. Let's hope not. He may have been picked up as a token punishment for all the rock throwers that got away. They should know that it is not acceptable.

[tinnypriv]

20. So you agree

That Mr Khalid cannot be called a "terrorist" (there being no evidence to support that charge).

Thanks for clearing that up.

Onto a loosely related topic, it would be interesting to compare the 13 months imprisonment he received (repeat: for "throwing stones") with the punishment meeted out to Israeli occupation troops.

For example, the case of an IDF soldier who fired "warning shots" at a Palestinian from 500 metres away (a claim ridiculed by Israeli military analysts, due to the distance), the injuries from which resulted in death.

He received a suspended sentence.¹

"tohar ha'neshek", equality of principles, etc...

-----

1. Note that this IDF soldier is one of only two soldiers to have been convicted in the 2nd Intifada. The other also received a suspended sentence.

[Gimel]

22. The obvious difference

The IDF soldier was a military personnel. The grenade thrower was not supposed to be assaulting a military person. His act was illegal, whether you call him a terrorist or not. IDF, you remember, if caught doing nothing in Palestinian territory, are summarily hanged.

[tinnypriv]

23. Grenade?

Where did that come from?

We're talking about Mr Khalid.

[Gimel]

24. Sorry

rock thrower. Although there are various degrees of offense even with rocks, as I pointed out in my earlier post.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

8. indeed...

after this wicked rave, I think old Uri could use a session or two on the couch...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

21. Inside Lebanon's two-state solution...

Here's another lesson on how to throw a party, from Hassan Nasrallah. Bodies are no reason for celebrations; dead fighters can't excite a crowd like a live prisoner can - they are a symbol of bravery, but not of political triumph

This is why, when the bodies of the Lebanese fighters were returned on Friday, the newspapers featured sad descriptions of how no leaders were available to receive them. There were no speeches, no dignitaries on a stage. They were brought to a large, sprawling field in central Beirut, where the children continued to play their soccer.

Instead of cabinet ministers, their deputies, ministry directors general, and members of parliament officiated, as if the dead fighters played no part in the victory. "Our dead were not invited to a ceremony," wrote the newspaper An-Nahar. "They returned as numbers, not as human beings. No flags were waved in their honor and no one stopped working."

...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/390450.html

[Gimel]

4. Jewish Identity

While this is in some ways different from Israeli identity, the sense of having reached closure was a cause for satisfaction, for all Israelis. The return of the bodies of the three soldiers was important to the families (2 Jewish, 1 Bedouin), and for all Israeli families. The knowledge that the MIAs were not forgotten, the kidnapped businessman (not at all shabby) not abandoned is important for self-esteem. There are still 4 MIAs, from the 1982 battle in Lebanon and one believed to have been abducted 6 years ago on the Golan border, as well as the missing serviceman (17 years missing) whose fate is unknown. There are continuing negotiations.

I don't think the ceremony was without an element of pride as well. Pride in the soldiers, the families who grieved but now have the bodies of their sons returned to bury in graves with ceremony. This is an important aspect to the loss of family, universally, not only for Jews.

The businessman was a private individual, so a ceremony for his return was not really in order. The soldiers were part of the national defense, and their remains should be honored.