Suicide attack on Jerusalem bus

[Resistance]

BBC News

At least 10 people have been killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in west Jerusalem, along with the bomber.

Dozens were also injured in the blast which was detonated not far from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's residence.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a militia loosely tied to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility in calls to news organisations.

[Resistance]

1. It is a cold-blooded killing

and I condemn it as strongly as I condemn the cold-blooded killings that the Israeli military commits. Murdering innocent civilians is never acceptable.

[GabysPoppy]

2. Then I can expect to see

100 threads asking for an ivestigation of the bombing.

[JohnLocke]

6. Make it 2 million.

Reaching into the far future.

[MikeGalos]

10. No need

The barbarians responsible for this atrocity take murdering innocent civilians as something to brag about.

I'd imagine the bombers friends and family are still celebrating under the ever-supportive eye of the PA "government" as I post this.

[Resistance]

20. whereas the brave IDF murders peace activists

then lies about it, saying "These were accidents!"

[Aidoneus]

11. what is unclear about this?

al-Aqsa brigades are not denying any aspect of what happened; the motive clearly explained and plausible; the actions not obscured by bureaucratic oversight and a media propaganda blitz..

It's cute that you're trying, but the "I know you are but what am I?" approach only comes off well with properly comperable matters.

[Aidoneus]

3. AP piece on it

Jerusalem Bus Bomber Kills 10, Wounds 50
1 hour, 10 minutes ago
By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a bag of explosives on a crowded Jerusalem bus outside Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's residence Thursday, killing 10 passengers and wounding 50 bystanders in the deadliest attack in four months.

The blast sent body parts flying into nearby houses. Shaken survivors crawled out of broken bus windows. A chunk of the bus' roof landed on top of a two-story building, and witnesses said there was an overpowering smell of blood and smoke.

Sharon was not home at the time of the attack, claimed by the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a militant group close to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.

The bomber, identified as Ali Jaara, 24, a Palestinian policeman from the West Bank town of Bethlehem, said in a note he left that he wanted to avenge eight Palestinians killed in fighting with Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip the day before.

--snip--

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=5&u=/ap/20040129/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

The first paragraph concludes very strangely--was Mr. Nessman sleeping for all of yesterday when the 13 were killed and dozens more injured in Gaza (or any of the other hundreds killed or wounded in the 4 months of what Nessman's editors and their peers call "a period of relative calm")? Ali Jaara seems to have taken those killings personally, even if Blitz doesn't think that was the real reason.

[eablair3]

9. agreed

it's just amazing how the media reports things -- when the IDF goes out a kills tens or more of innocent women and children in Gaza or the West Bank in the past few days and weeks -- that this is considered "a period of relative calm".

[tinnypriv]

19. I'm not sure that is a particulary fair criticism

To make the piece literally accurate, Ravi would only have to place "suicide" (or "such") before "attack" in the first paragraph.

However, despite that, the piece is implicity accurate, given the title and the obvious subject matter.

If he used "period of calm" or "relative quiet" or any of the other idiotic, racist remarks, that'd be fair enough IMO, but he didn't (except one instance, clearly attributed to "Israeli officials").

[Gimel]

22. Arafat said 8

The number of deaths, according to many reports, was 8 Palestinians in Gaza yesterday. Even Arafat said there were eight dead, even Arekat said there were 8 deaths, 5 were known terrorists.

Today of Gaza street in Jerusalem there were 10 deaths of innocent people. There have already been identified. Thirty more people are still in hospital with serious injuries. Some may have been soldiers, but my hunch is that there were children and elderly people killed as well.

[Resistance]

23. Terrorists were killed yesterday?

Where? Israel was the invader, so why not view Israel's Army as the terrorists? And as far as I know, no Israeli troops died in Gaza yesterday.

[Gimel]

38. Gaza

Five armed Palestinians were killed during the confrontation, which lasted more than six hours. Among the dead was 39-year-old Iyad A-Rai, considered one of the leading military commanders in the neighborhood. Three other Islamic Jihad activists and a Hamas man were killed.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/388199.html

[Resistance]

41. Oh

Armed Palestinians = must be terrorists.

:crazy: Gotcha. :crazy:

[JohnLocke]

60. Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Al-Aqsa, Hizbollah, Hamas = terrorists

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. You left out so many

Fatah, Tanzim, Hezbollah, PFLP, etc.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

67. That's a real sweet way

of accusing a DUer of bigotry. Talk about not saying what you really mean.

[Aidoneus]

68. Yes, that is exactly what I had meant to imply

because that is exactly how it comes off. I had also qualified it with this, to leave a possible way out--
...Whether that approach is how you feel or not, I don't know, but that's how it comes off...

[The Magistrate]

69. There Seems No Warrant Here For That, My Friend

The organizations were named specifically, and can hardly be viewed as mischaracterized in the comment you have initially replied to.

It seems quite a stretch to me to leap from naming and denouncing these specific bodies to any characterization of all Arab Palestinians, even, let alone all non-Jews.

[Aidoneus]

70. I did so with some hestitation

With much observation and consideration first give to the greater tendencies of a variety of other people (immediate peers, or in general those of similar views), the fact that the principles at hand do not seem to be an issue but rather who carries them out to whom, etc.. it seems fair.

And particularly so if I had instead placed it in reply to the poster who followed up with more suggestions. It has been established by him that everything these people can do is illegitimate "terrorism", especially attacks on foreign military forces in occupied territory, and a consistant record of absolutely everything flying in the other direction as wholly legitimate, or not nearly enough of it. This is not an isolated view. What else could such a tendency in general be catagorized as?

Perhaps I am mistaken in this particular case, which is why I suggested that appearances may be deceiving.

[The Magistrate]

72. Fair Enough, Sir

Your point seems then to be that the comment intended to describe all violence by Arab Palestinians all illegitimate, rather than to suggest that it implied all non-Jews were "terrorists". Please accept my apologies for having misread you.

The point you make here is an excellent one. The people of Arab Palestine have as much right as any other to levy war in defense of their land and lives, just as they have no more right than any other to do so in a criminal fashion. Where the various irregular bodies that constitute the armed forces of Arab Palestine engage the armed forces of Israel, they are acting properly as legitimate combatants, and supporters of Israel ought to recognize this. That such attacks, when they are made, are often made by surprise and take the soldiers assailed at a great disadvantage, does not make them criminal, merely well executed, for surprise attack is the crown of all tactical endeavor, and no one in war does anything else, if they can, but strive to place the enemy at as great a disadvantage as can be contrived in combat.

[JohnLocke]

73. Enough of your silly games.

I said that members of PIJ, Hamas, and Hizbollah are terrorists. To say that I implied that all non-Jews are terrorists is an insult to me and all the people on this board, Jew or Gentile. By the way, I'm alerting.

[Aidoneus]

74. thank you for doing this the hard way

could you explain the principle at work with them that you object to, and why it does not apply as well to what you are in favour of?

As a somewhat minor quibble, that is not exactly what I said.

The "non-us" being the "terrorists" is a new tired and pathetic formula of hypocrites and charlatans everywhere, and I was assuming that was what you were working off of in dealing out the classification.

For a particularly striking example of a contradiction, Israel has killed more people with the hundreds of thousands of landmines they left lying around in Lebanon than Hamas has in its entire existance, and this just a single and comparatively minor point within a greater context, but there doesn't seem to be too much concern with things like this on your end and among peers--it's the "non-us" that are the evil subhumans, and uniformly so no matter what contradictions such an unwavering platform is hit with.

[JohnLocke]

75. You're welcome; I enjoy this.

Statement: "The "non-us" being the "terrorists" is a new tired and pathetic formula of hypocrites and charlatans everywhere, and I was assuming that was what you were working off of in dealing out the classification."
Response: By the first clause in this sentence you seem to be accusing me of xenophobia and bigotry, saying that I hate, fear, and oppress anyone like me. This is absurd. Later on in your post, you again say that I believe people different than I are "sub-human." Here you distort and twist my position, taking what I said -- "that Hamas, Hezbollah, and others are terrorist groups" and twisting it until suddenly, I’m a racist, bigoted jerk! This is a classic example of the straw man at work.

[Aidoneus]

76. "sub-human" was Blitz's phrase, not yours

I would recommend sticking to exactly what I have said.. it was specific enough already, and I'm not really sure about some of the things you're extrapolating out of it.

You were very clear. The "terrorists" are anyone except your side. I thought that could be simplifed and put more honestly.

Above, I note what considerations were given before reaching such a conclusion. As for you personally, I was speaking in response to obvious appearances, noting that I was not entirely sure whether that was how you really thought but rather how it was coming off and what basic formulas such are grounded on.

[JohnLocke]

77. Wrong.

And I quote: "it's the "non-us" that are the evil subhumans..."

[Aidoneus]

78. I'm aware of what I wrote..

Let me return to what was originally the whole of the "thank you for.." post, for it was the main point to be considered:--
could you explain the principle at work with them that you object to, and why it does not apply as well to what you are in favour of?

[JohnLocke]

79. Surely. I object to terrorism.

[Aidoneus]

80. Not much of an explanation...

What exactly does that mean? Can you flesh it out a bit, and particularly try to address the 2nd half of the question?

[JohnLocke]

81. Hmm...

You ask “could you explain the principle at work with them that you object to, and why it does not apply as well to what you are in favor of?”
I object to terrorism, no matter who uses it. This definition applies equally to all people and groups. But I will not allow anyone to claim by some deluded, twisted version of my words, that Israel or its armed forces are terrorist organizations.

*Terrorism constitutes the illegitimate use of force by an organized group or government to achieve a political objective when innocent people are deliberately targeted.

[Aidoneus]

90. Still not much of an explanation..

by now I'm assuming that a detailed answer, free of hollow euphamisms used as shields, will not be forthcoming.. :shrug:

Though an admission is not given, the truth is that what you support quite frequently carries out acts which you claim to oppose when such are done by others. A convinction (at the best of times, a more dangerous enemy to "truth" than lies) based on aloof hypocrisy is not a good substitute for a firm grounding in a thorough knowledge of the subject.

[JohnLocke]

88. Kick

:kick:

[Herschel]

4. The security fence is justified once more

-

[Resistance]

21. Nobody has a problem with building The Wall

Just don't steal Palestinian land doing it, bulldozing homes and leaving innocent people homeless in the process.

[eablair3]

5. Buses used to transport IDF soldiers in Israel

I never realized that the buses in Israel are used to transport IDF troops. I watched a PBS show called Globe Trekker recently. It's a travel show, and they did a show on Israel. The host went to the main bus terminal in Tel Aviv and rode the bus around to certain places in Israel. Apparently, there is an arrangement with the IDF for the buses to transport IDF troops, and they are one of the main ways of transporting troops. They said the buses are normally well populated with IDF troops, and the show included video of many of the IDF troops on the buses that Globe Trekker and its host, Justine Shapiro, took around the country.

I was kind of surprised to learn this. I have never seen this fact referred to in the mass media reports. The U.S. mass media makes it sound like the buses are used solely by innocent civilians, including the elderly, women and small children. Buses in the U.S. are not used for transporting troops. I didn't know that the Israeli bus system is the main transport system for IDF troops that serve in the Occupied Territories and the Gaza Strip.

Here's a quote and a link to the site for the Globe Trekker show where this was shown and is talked about when telling how they travelled in Israel:

By Bus
The Egged bus company is one of the largest in the world and it's the easiest way to travel round the country. A month's Israbus pass costs about 140 US dollars.

The company has an arrangement with the Israeli Defence Force to transport soldiers to and from their bases, so the stations and buses are always packed with troops. In fact, in time of war, Egged acts as a back-up fleet transporting personnel and equipment.

http://www.globetrekkertv.co.uk/destination_guide/middle_east_and_nort...

http://www.globetrekkertv.co.uk/destination_guide/middle_east_and_nort... /

I was just a little surprised about this and about seeing all the IDF troops on these buses in Israel.

After learning this and seeing it, I find it hard to believe that not even one of these "innocent bystanders" or "innocent civilians" were IDF troops. But, you never see such reports of IDF troops using these buses for transportation and that any killed were IDF troops.

[MikeGalos]

7. What a load

Today, PA Chairman Arafat's own al-Fatah murdered at least 10 innocent civilians and wounded dozens of others.

Not soldiers.

Civilians on a crowded city bus in the middle of a major city.

Period.

Anyone who can justify this level of barbarism needs to seriously rethink their own values.

[eablair3]

12. how do you know they were all "civilians"?

I don't think any of the killing on either side is justified, but the people on the Israeli side seem to think it's okay to do targeted assassinations and kill tens or hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians in the process as long as one or a few "militants" are killed or at least were the targets. So, if the Palestinians target buses that are used by contract to transport IDF troops and innocent civilians are killed, how is it any different?

The whole media reporting in the U.S. seems to be highly misleading(that's certainly no revelation) by leaving out the fact that the buses transport troops.

I don't think any of the killing is justified on either side. But, it seems that the Israelis, in general, seem to think that their killing is justified and the Palestinians are "just barbarians who only target innocent civilians". It seems the media is doing no favors to the Israeli people by failing to bring out reality or the truth.

[tinnypriv]

18. There is absolutely no comparison whatever

The bombings of Israeli buses are terrorism, period.

There are directed at civilians, period.

There can be no possible debate on this outside of non-Hamas circles, since the targetting of civilians is not only conceeded but lauded by those carrying out the acts.

[eablair3]

24. yes, that's the thinking

"whatever they do is 'terrorism', and whatever we do is perfectly justified, even if it results in the unfortunate harm to innocent civilians"

"after all, those Palestinians are just sub-human barbarians"

does that pretty much sum it up?

[GabysPoppy]

25. That comment "sub-human"

was directed at "suicide bombers". To imply that "all" Palestinians were implied is blatantly false.

[eablair3]

30. no

no, I wasn't using it in that matter or referring to it in that manner.

even Thomas Friedman has written on how it's promoted in segments of Israel society and how many in Israel view the Palestinians as sub-human, or something less than real people -- or "de-humanizing" them. He said that's part of the reason Israel society in general doesn't have any real problem with the killing of Palestinians, whether it's civilians or militants. He wrote of this in his book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" iirc.

The U.S. did the same in referring to Vietnamese as "gooks" etc.

When I used it, I was referring to this general use or thinking, and not restricting it's use to refer to suicide bombers only.

[The Magistrate]

63. You Are Rather Off Your Aim, Mr. Blair

You have taken great exception to Mr. Priv's comments that this attack was unargueably criminal, in which he points out that those who launched it, and other such attacks as well, make no bones about it being their intention to kill Israeli civilians, and that they think killing Israeli civilians is a laudable and desireable thing. These things are true, and Mr. Priv, a staunch and effective advocate for Arab Palestine here, does his cause much good by acknowledging this: since he recognizes when his cause does wrong, he is entitled to be taken seiously where he says it does right, and where he says the other side does wrong. By engaging in apologia for this atrocity, Mr. Blair, you give every encouragement for others to take your comments in all aspects of this matter as those of a mere propagandist shill, to be disregarded as no more than foul noise. For the record, late reports concerning the casualties here seem to indicate the bus was filled mostly with medical personnel coming off their shift at a hospital nearby.

Perhaps more worth serious engagement is your refrain concerning de-humanization, which you seem to claim operates on one side only of this conflict. That is simply nonesense, and if you are at all informed on the subject, and honest in your intellect, you know it to be nonesense.

On a general level, it is a fact that the peoples of Israel and of Arab Palestine are at war, and have been for decades. De-humanization of the enemy is an inescapable part of war; it is both a consequence of the conflict, in which each side behaves brutally toward the other, with persons drawing the reasonable conclusion from this that the foe is a cruel and cunning thing, and an essential tool of its prosecution, for people are generally disinclined to kill other people like themselves, yet war demands of them that they do so, and the easiest way to resolve that conflict is to view the enemy as something completely other than themselves.

On a more particular level, it is well known to any honest observer of this conflict that tremendous effort is made by the political and intellectual and religious leadership of Arab Palestine to dehumanize Israelis, and Jews in general. References to them as dogs and monkeys, as natural liars, as the enemies of all that is holy, and marked for defeat by the diety, are so commonplace as to excite little comment anymore. Propagandist shills attempt to deny all this as mistranslation or selective notice, but even as they do so, they know that is not the case, and that these things are in fact common as dirt in the discourse of Arab Palestinian political and religious and intellectual circles. It cannot honestly be pretended that this drive to dehumanize the foe plays no part in prolonging this conflict, and increasing the brutality with which it is prosecuted, from the Arab Palestinian side.

[Gimel]

82. The tendency to raise

Palestinians gunmen to the status of ligitimacy, while the same persons will deligitimize Israeli troops. Thinking IDF are inhuman, maybe not even have the right to ride in public transportation when going home on leave (off duty soldiers are considered civilians by human rights organizations) and are visible due to their uniforms, making them targets without mercy, really makes me question humanity.

This is an illogical tactic. Civilians who shoot at IDF soldiers are not protecting their lives. The IDF has no interest in killing civilians. Acting suspiciously in conflict, running from checkpoints and refusing to stop when commanded all raise suspicion.

[MikeGalos]

27. Let me sum it up for you

Israel attacks military targets and sometimes civilians are accidently killed despite best efforts.
If Palestinian civilians are killed an investigation is held and if it wasn't a reasonably unavoidable accident the guilty are charged and punished.

PA supported terrorists attack civilian targets but sometimes soldiers are accidently killed despite best efforts.
When Israeli civilians are killed a celebration his held and the guilty are rewarded, celebrated and honored.

Does that make it easy enough for you to understand?

[Forkboy]

28. The apartment building they blew up was a military target?

okee doke...if you say so.

[MikeGalos]

31. Just because

a military HQ is located in what was built as an apartment building doesn't mean it's full of apartments.

I once taught a class in a building that was built as a barn. That doesn't mean that I was using a hay bail as a podium...

[Forkboy]

32. riiiight

[Resistance]

34. It is time to be honest

and admit that Israeli forces are as discriminative of civilian/military targets as Hamas extremists are. Both sides are equally vicious.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Not at all

Israel targets terrorists who hide behind civilians. Hamas targets civilians. There is no comparison.

[Gimel]

84. Hamas and other terrorists

do not want peace, they want "to end the occupation", by which they mean all of Israel is to them illegitimate.

Israel recognizes the Palestinians Authority and the goal of the Palestinian State in the Palestinian lands living in peace with it's neighbors. That is the big difference.

In truth, it is time to be honest. There is no equality in the intent of the two groups IDF v. terrorists.

[Resistance]

29. what I think you are missing in your analysis, eablair

is the fact that Israeli forces - in addition to leaving behind dead civilians as a result of 'targeted killings' - often intentionally target the civilians themselves, which, of course, is no different from the suicide bombers. The difference is that Palestinian extremist groups claim responsibility for their attacks, while the Israeli forces pretend that their cold-blooded killings of civilians were 'accidents' or the results of 'clashes'.

But any honest observer of the situation can see that Israeli troops have indeed targeted civilians directly and murdered them with as much viciousness as a Hamas militant who has been told to kill as many Israeli occupiers as possible.

[eablair3]

33. good point, .. and thanks (nt)

[Resistance]

35. no problem

Israel tries to win the propaganda game by pretending that all their targets are military ones, then saying that Palestinian terror groups only target civilians. These assumptions are totally false, and I believe needs serious correction even amongst Israel's fiercest critics.

[eablair3]

37. no doubt about the propaganda

I was more than a little surprised to see with my own eyes video of all the IDF troops that populate the buses there, and then learn that the bus company has an arrangement to transport IDF troops.

a fact that is always conventiently left out of all media reports.

[Gimel]

83. "any honest observer of the situation "

Here you are deluding yourself.

No one can observe the facts without understanding the realities involved. However, understanding the natures involved will give you some clues as to the true intentions. That is not difficult to see.

[tinnypriv]

43. If you're not going to respond to my comments

And instead ask me to respond to some hypothetical ones, I believe any productive discussion will be impossible.

[eablair3]

49. well, when you ignore the question

when you ignore the question ... it's useless to discuss anything with you.

once again, ... I asked above in a post to which you responded: how do you know they were all civilians?

You ignored responding to that and just unilaterally concluded that it was directed at civilians. So they were only civilians that were killed because you said so?

[tinnypriv]

50. I didn't address your "question"

Because it is irrelevant and offensive to the victims families.

In any case, I don't "unilaterally" conclude that the targets are civilians, those carrying out the acts say so.

To answer your question:

The "difference", which you seem oblivious to, is that regardless of the composition of the victims (soldier, reservist, civilian, both), the targets are civilians.

To make it even simpler:

This bus would have been blown up and the people murdered even if there were no soldiers on board. Hence, whether there were or not is irrelevant, and I repeat: offensive.

[eablair3]

52. that's right, you didn't and you can't

I supplied info that IDF troops use these buses to be transported to invade the Palestinian lands of the West Bank and Gaza, man checkpoints, and in many instance place the Palestinian population under curfew while some of those troops loot buildings and kill innocent civilians.

I supplied the link and the info. Others who seem to be knowledgable about Israel, acknowledged that such buses are used as a main means of transportation for IDF troops.

You supplied no links. You supplied no supporting reference whatsoever. Your post ignored the question and unilaterally concluded that they were all civilians despite the facts that I posted.

You had nothing to support your assertions. And, you still don't after a few more posts.

to make it simpler you stated

To make it even simpler:

This bus would have been blown up and the people murdered even if there were no soldiers on board. Hence, whether there were or not is irrelevant, and I repeat: offensive.

Another unsupported assertion.

What is Israel doing using supposedly civilian buses to transport IDF troops for? Israel has apparently been doing this for years.

Doesn't sound like the buses are so civilian when they transport the very troops that come into the Palestinian areas and literally shit all over the inside of rooms in buildings and the equipment in those rooms - to only mention one of the minor things some of these troops have done.

[GabysPoppy]

53. You have mistated my remarks and remarks by others

The fact that soldiers ride buses does not mean that the IDF is using buses to transport troops.

Your use of the various explanations given you is offensive.

[tinnypriv]

54. Final response

Since this is going nowhere fast. I will however address the relevant parts of your post:

<< I supplied info that IDF troops use these buses to be transported to invade the Palestinian lands of the West Bank and Gaza, man checkpoints, and in many instance place the Palestinian population under curfew while some of those troops loot buildings and kill innocent civilians. >>

True, and I could provide you with shocking information regarding the behaviour of the IDF at those checkpoints, but that'd all be irrelevant.

Despite that, you may wish to look up the instances where I have done just that. To name three (minor) examples, I posted information about a checkpoint taxi rank being attacked by IDF troops a while ago, cited a liberal Israeli publication on that very topic in this thread, and I have also directed interested parties to the Israeli Checkpoint monitoring organisation.

In addition, I could also give you details about how checkpoint ("machsom") duty is viewed in Israel, giving recent examples. One would be the reaction of many in Israel when the new Israeli military attache to Washington D.C. declared that "Phd's don't serve in the checkpoints" (disparaging those who do), a story not reported outside of Israel, as far as I know.

Again, all irrelevant, though if you want the information, you can PM me.

<< I supplied the link and the info. Others who seem to be knowledgable about Israel, acknowledged that such buses are used as a main means of transportation for IDF troops. >>

I didn't "acknowledge" this unique piece of information because it is so well known.

<< You supplied no links. You supplied no supporting reference whatsoever. Your post ignored the question and unilaterally concluded that they were all civilians despite the facts that I posted. >>

Given that I supply (in order to be helpful, and because of the request of several people), extensive footnotes (not just links) in almost every post I make, I can only conclude you must not spend a great deal of time in I/P. Otherwise, you'd simply ask for the information, rather than launch into accusations.

<< Another unsupported assertion. >>

Unsupported only in the sense that everyone (even Hamas) agrees with me that Palestinian suicide bombers specifically and repeatedly target civilians as a matter of policy.

<< What is Israel doing using supposedly civilian buses to transport IDF troops for? Israel has apparently been doing this for years. >>

You may wish to look up the relevant Amnesty International documents on this topic. They state that even if a bus carries soldiers in an off-duty capacity (they are "on duty", when they report for duty), it remains a civilian bus.

The same goes for Israeli reservists, who are not "combatants" unless they are either engaged in combat, or actions in the Occupied Territories.

<< Doesn't sound like the buses are so civilian when they transport the very troops that come into the Palestinian areas and literally shit all over the inside of rooms in buildings and the equipment in those rooms - to only mention one of the minor things some of these troops have done. >>

Which I myself have condemned, many times, and specifically noted as an example of a horrendeous racism towards symbols of the Palestinian culture and nationalist movement. Though again, that's irrelevant.

[eablair3]

57. you are too much - the soldiers are only soldiers when they are "on duty"

You may wish to look up the relevant Amnesty International documents on this topic. They state that even if a bus carries soldiers in an off-duty capacity (they are "on duty", when they report for duty), it remains a civilian bus.

The same goes for Israeli reservists, who are not "combatants" unless they are either engaged in combat, or actions in the Occupied Territories.

It's always helpful to reverse the situation to expose hypocrisy.

Now, tell me, .. how does Israel know when the Palestinian resistance fighters in Gaza and the West Bank are "on duty"?

How does Israel know the Palestinians fighters are "on duty" when Israel sends missiles into an apartment building to kill one of the fighters as well as 15-20 civilians, including women, children and babies?

still not even one link or cite to source material.

[Lurking Dem]

62. So defying International law is okay

with you? (Off duty soldiers are not legitimate targets.) Ignoring what the terrorist groups say is okay with you? (Their targets are Israeli civilians.)

Do you also ignore red lights? Weather reports? Oncoming trains?

Here is a list of acts that Al Aksa has claimed responsibility for. from the Jewish Virtual Library that goes up to last January. There have been several more they have claimed during the last year. Neighborhoods? Shopping malls? Markets? Synagogues? Just who the fuck do you think their targets are?

January 5, 2003
Tel Aviv
23 killed, 108 injured
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Two suicide bombers in an immigrant neighborhood

May 27, 2002
Petah Tikvah
2 killed, 37 injured
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide bomb in shopping mall

Apr 12, 2002
Jerusalem
6 killed, 104 injured
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide bomb in Mahane Yehuda market

March 29, 2002
Jerusalem
2 killed, 28 Wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide bombing at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel

Jerusalem
3 killed, 86 Wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide bombing downtown

March 20, 2002
Afula
7 killed, 30 wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide bombing on bus

March 14, 2002
Karni-Netzarim road
3 Killed, 2 Wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Remote Control Mine

March 12, 2002
near Kibbutz Matzuva
6 Killed, 7 Wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunmen Ambush Vehicles

March 10, 2002
Netzarim
1 Killed
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Shooting Attack

March 9, 2002
Netanya
2 Killed, 50 Wounded
Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
2 Gunmen Open Fire on a Promenade

March 2, 2002
Jerusalem
10 Killed, >50 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue

February 27, 2002
West Bank
3 Wounded
Fatah
Female Suicide Bomber

February 25, 2002
Jerusalem
1 Killed, 8 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop

February 25, 2002
Gush Etzion
1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunmen Open Fire on a Car

February 19, 2002
En Arik
6 Killed, 1 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers

February 18, 2002
Gush Katif
3 Killed, 4 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunfire and Bombs at Cars

February 18, 2002
near Jerusalem
1 Killed, 1 Injured
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Car Bomb

January 22, 2002
Jerusalem
2 Killed, 40 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Guman Opens Fire on Crowd

January 17, 2002
Hadera
6 Killed, 35 Wounded
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
Gunman Opens Fire at Bat Mitzvah Celebration

January 15, 2002
Beit Jala
1 Killed
Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
American Kidnapped and Murdered

December 12, 2001
Emmanuel
10 Killed, 30 Wounded
Fatah & Hamas
Bomb and Gunfire Attack on Bus

November, 27, 2001
Afula
2 Killed, Dozens Wounded
Islamic Jihad & Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade
2 Gunmen Opened Fire on Crowd near the Central Bus Station

[eablair3]

64. no, but don't let the hypocrisy stop

no, violating international law is not okay with me. But, apply the standard equally. Israel and its supporters only cite to international law when it is convenient for them. Israel has long been in violation of international law, and has more violations than Saddam Hussein.

Tell me, ... if Israel follows international law and is so careful to protect the lives of innocent civilians, .... why has Israel killed approximately 3,500 Palestinian civilians since the start of the first Intifada? During that time, Palestinians have killed approximately 750 Israeli civilians. (These numbers are from B'Tselem).

things like this just don't matter to you.

the killing is wrong on both sides. How come Israel keeps taking the Palestinian lands? How come Israel keeps moving settlers into the Palestinian areas? they've been doing that for 35 years or more, taking more and more land.

and, if the killing of civilians is so important to Israel, how come it has killed four times as many Palestinian civilians?

[The Magistrate]

65. If You Wish To Apply The Law Equally, Mr. Blair

You must denounce forthrightly the criminal acts of the various Arab Palestinian irregular bodies that deliberately aim their operations toward the onbject of killing enemy civilians, and to no other purpose. You do not do this, but attempt to weasel away from any honest spplication of a uniform standard to both sides of the conflict. You do this because you have no interest in or respect for the concenpt of the laws of war, let alone any understanding of them, but simply wish to take up those words as a rhetorical club to belabor the side of this conflict you oppose. That is the surest way to discredit the very concept of international law, by convincing people at large it is merely a cheap propaganda point, and nothing more.

The figures you cite are worthless, for the organization providing them does not seem, in compiling them, to take any notice of the catagory of irregular combatant, that is explicitly recognized by the Geneva Accords, and under which rubric members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al, clearly fall. When this is taken into account, figures show that a little more than half of the Arab Palestinians killed by Israeli forces fall into this recognized combatant category, while less than a fifth of the Israelis killed by the various Arab Palestinian bodies are members of any combatant force. It is quite clear from these facts that there is indeed a greater degree of discrimination in targeting employed by Israeli forces than by their opponents.

These proportions, it is worth pointing out, hold not only over-all, but in most every closely examineed incident. In the recent firefight in Gaza, for example, five of the eight Arab Palestinians killed were members of irregular combatant bodies. In the exhaustively examined combat at Jenin in the spring of '02, Human Rights Watch acknowledged that roughly half of the Arab Palestinians killed were armed combatants, and that is an organization which, if anything, would tend to give the benefit of doubt to the proposition a person was not a combatant than otherwise, so its testimony in this regard is particularly telling.

The problem facing you, Mr. Blair, is this. You support a cause which has a great measure of justice about it, yet which is being pursued by appallingly criminal means. You cannot blink the criminality in favor of the justice, and must recognize that it is largely the criminality which has prevented success in the just cause.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

86. A good summation

Thank you for reviewing the situation, Magistrate.

You have more patience in responding to appalling lack of discrimination with regards to the conflict.

a cause which has a great measure of justice about it, yet which is being pursued by appallingly criminal means.

Very well said.

:thumbsup:

[Gimel]

85. One sign of on-duty

If a sniper shoots from a roof-top, he is a terrorist on-duty.

If a man is unarmed, he is off-duty, or simply a civilian. Not always easy to tell, grant you. One of the many reasons the IDF face insurmountable odds in disarming terrorists in the PA areas.

[GabysPoppy]

8. Buses are the main mode of transportation in Israel

Soldiers are allowed to ride free. This is not a country where every teenager considers a car to be a birthright. Cars cost approximately four times what they cost in the US. Gas also costs about four times as much. IDF soldiers initially make 300 shekels a month as their army pay. That amounts to $75.00 per month. I hope that explains to you why you will see so many IDF soldiers on the bus.

[eablair3]

13. thanks

thanks, ... I kind of gathered as much. I just did not know the extent of the buses being used to transport troops and didn't know of the arrangement that the bus company, Egged, has with the IDF to transport troops.

But, given your post and info, I can certainly see why so many IDF troops would be using such buses.

The killing on both sides is so tragic. Unfortunately, I don't see it ending under present circumstances.

[JohnLocke]

15. Well said!

[tinnypriv]

16. Funnily enough

Kol Ha'ir did an interview with a female soldier on the 405/J just the other day. It was about beating Arabs at the machsomim.

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Israel prefers to transport soliders on civilian buses

Of course, civilians are not required to use the buses. Because like the US, Israel is a democracy, all Israelis have the freedom to purchase automobiles at the free market rate.

[eablair3]

26. I guess one could say

i guess one could argue that, using Israel's rhetoric, that attacking the bus company that tranports IDF troops is somehow legitimate and that Israel is using civilians as "shields" by using these buses for troop transport when civilians use them, too.

Israel seems to say the Palestinian militants hide in civilian areas and take refuge in civilian areas whenever some Israeli missile attack ends up killing tens of innocent Palestinians.

[DuctapeFatwa]

40. No, they would only be human shields if it were done by another country

Since it is Israel, they are not human shields, but mentioning that they put the soldiers on the same buses is anti-Semitic incitement.

[Gimel]

87. Troop transport

The transport you are talking about is not technically correct. The buses do not in fact travel into the West bank or Gaza areas. They are only in the civilian areas of Israel. It is one of several modes of transport. In fact, reserve soldiers often have their own cars to drive to base. Over the Green Line, military transport alone is used. The Palestinians actually have not legitimate purpose to attack inside of Israel proper.

[Gimel]

89. Transportation

Prior to the agreement with the bus companies, soldiers generally relied on hitch-hiking as a way to get from home to base. Since the terrorists targeted hitch-hikers, kidnapping several and torturing them on video before killing them, soldiers have been discouraged from traveling by tramp and have been given passage on public transport. It is not troop transport in the technical sense. You are misusing the term.

[lynx rufus]

17. Time to boot Sharon and start talking turkey!

What do you say? Palestinians died yesterday, people on a bus
died today. Time to let the EU take over: Let those UN monitors
in to keep an eye on what goes on; Clear out all of the Illegally
Occupied Territories - immediately, why wait?; Funnel cash - via the UN - into the Nation of Palestine to get things on track (use US tax dollars, please!); Tear down the wall, it is inhumane and illegal as hell and everyone knows it. Now is the perfect time to start.

[Resistance]

36. I am all for international intervention.

It works elsewhere; there's no reason it couldn't work in Palestine/Israel.

[eablair3]

39. But, Israel has refused monitors for years

Israel has refused to allow monitors for years. The Palestinians have been asking for them for years.

With monitors, Israel wouldn't be allowed to do what they do.

[Resistance]

42. true

why should Israel allow monitors which would most likely also involve a halt to all the ongoing theft of Palestinian land? With no monitors, Israel can continue to grab more and more land.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Yeah all those UN folks just LOVE Israel

No nation would tolerate UN "monitors" there to aid its enemies.

[tinnypriv]

46. I'm guessing you'll

Be calling for the end of UN inspections in Iran then.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Nope

The UN lacks decades of anti-Iranian effort.

[number6]

47. Danm Right it is !!!!

"Tear down the wall, it is inhumane and illegal as hell and everyone knows it."

[Jim Sagle]

91. The wall is mostly a fence. It's humane. It's legal.

And everyone knows it.

The Peace Fence...making the world a better place, one brick at a time.

[Darranar]

44. Despicable...

such unjustified attacks on innocent civilians must stop now, regardless of Israeli actions.

Atrocities never justify other atrocities.

[number6]

48. I agree, but the world is not that simple.

..

[Blitz]

51. Video of the aftermath of the bus bombing

WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC CONTENT

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?format=wm&s=C9CE3CEBD341410FACBEFAABD8F66FE0&ci=22958&ak=null&ClipMediaID=28655

[tinnypriv]

55. FWIW

I personally think a separate thread was appropriate, given the unique nature of the subject matter (unique in the sense of availablity that is, this material has been available to journalists for many years).

Obviously I disagree with what you posted (and left out), but then I hardly think you're shocked at that.

[Blitz]

56. True

My capacity for being shocked is running shockingly low these days.

On edit, maybe I'll change my nick to "nothingshocksmeeither"