Israel honors civil rights

[King_David]

By Lee Hiromoto / As you were saying
Saturday, December 3, 2011 - Updated 24 hours ago

Having served as a soldier in Israel’s military government in the West Bank during my compulsory military service, I know first-hand that Israel’s situation vis-a-vis its Palestinian neighbors is not perfect. The intricacies of administering captured territory according to international law are complex and security measures like checkpoints or arresting terror suspects can cause undue inconvenience to the innocent. But while the situation to the east of the Green Line may fairly warrant criticism, that should not detract from Israel’s democratic accomplishments.

Consider Israel’s neighbors in the Middle East. This September, three men were executed in the Islamic Republic of Iran for being gay in contravention of Sharia law. Also in September, a woman was sentenced to 10 lashes in Saudi Arabia for daring to drive a car in defiance of the Islamic kingdom’s strict regulations on women’s freedom of movement (the sentence was overturned due the intervention of King Abdullah, but the driving ban remains). In majority-Muslim Egypt, at least a dozen Christians were killed this spring during a mob attack on Coptic churches.

On the other hand, Israeli women, gays and lesbians, and religious minorities have attained a level of equality that other Middle Eastern countries should aspire to.
History shows that Israel’s embrace of modern sensibilities is not a new phenomenon.

Justice Haim Cohn of the Israel Supreme Court wrote in 1963 that consensual same-sex relations between adults should not constitute a crime. It took the U.S. Supreme Court until 2003 to reach the same conclusion when it overturned regressive sodomy laws in Lawrence vs. Texas. Living in both conservative Jerusalem and live-and-let-live Tel-Aviv from 2006-10, I took part in a dynamic LGBT scene that included everything from pride parades to religious services for gay Jews.
http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/2011_1203israel_honors_civil_rights

[King_David]

1. 'a term like “pinkwashing” is more than just offensive.'

'To write off any reference to Israel’s civil rights accomplishments with a term like “pinkwashing” is more than just offensive. Such a callous dismissal reeks of partisan anti-Israel prejudice and undermines the nuanced, informed discourse conducive to Arab-Israeli reconciliation.'

http://bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view/2011_1203israel_honors_civil_rights

[Ken Burch]

21. The question of Israel's civil rights record is irrelevant to the I/P dispute

It's not a debate over whether whether Israel or Palestine is superior...it's not a competition between the two entities at all.

It's just about whether or not you believe Israel has the right to prevent Palestinians from having the right to self-determination.

This gloating about social progressiveness in Israel is silly and childish-progressiveness in some areas does NOT justify one country keeping another country under military occupation.

Nobody here is arguing that Israel is a country with no redeeming qualities at all-just that Israel is wrong to do what it does to the Palestinians.

Is it THAT hard to accept the distinction on that?

And it's not as though the IDF is in the West Bank in order to defend gay rights.

[King_David]

28. It's extremely relevant

No country especially a liberal western country should recognize or aid a state that institutionalizes bigotry and practices medieval barbarism against their own minority groups.

It is extremely relevant no matter how many people on ,a progressive website to boot,think that Gay rights can just be thrown under the bus
to appease retrograde socially inferior bigots.

Fuck them.

[Ken Burch]

64. But here's the thing

The IDF is NOT in the West Bank to protect gay rights. They are there to preserve the status quo, to keep the settlements in place, to prevent Palestinians from having self-determination.

I agree with you about rights-but it's bullshit to pretend that that is what the Occupation is about.

[shira]

66. You can't stop with the demonization, can you? n/t

[Ken Burch]

69. Not demonization at all.

Bibi has never really wanted a Palestinian state. If he did, he'd announce a PERMANENT settlement freeze. You can't keep building settlements and say you want peace. It's a complete contradiction.

And my comment about why the troops are there was a comment about the politicians, not as much about them. They know they don't have to be in the West Bank just to keep Israel in existence.

[King_David]

74. Stick to the topic

Retrograde bigoted oppressive policies of a wannabe state seeking Western Recognition.

Fuck that. It must not be recognized until they change their medieval culture and bigotry.

[shira]

86. You constantly demonize the IDF and couldn't care less about the very rational fear Israelis have...

....WRT rockets raining down on the rest of Israel (just like Sderot) if the IDF were to leave the West Bank entirely.

And stop with the Bibi nonsense. Your demonization is the same whether the PM is Eshkol, Meir, Begin, Shamir, Rabin, Peres, Barak, Sharon, Olmert, or Bibi. Unlike his predecessors, Bibi froze settlements for 10 months and offered the Palestinians a state in the WB on 60% of the land. The PA decided said 'No' to both.

Where's your criticism of the PA? They also rejected 2 peace offers in 2000 and 2008 without making public a reasonable counter-offer.

[azurnoir]

75. You mean like Israel has aided South Sudan? n/t

[shira]

87. No Ken, it's relevant when yr anti-Zionist friends are calling into question Israel's existance

There's a very clear campaign going on to demonize and delegitimize Israel. It's so bad that EU member western democratic nations are funding NGOs committed to one state, full RoR, and an end to Israel. Israel is the only nation in the UN whose existance is questioned.

Those doing the demonizing or supporting it cannot stand to hear or read of anything decent, liberal, or progressive about Israel.

Screw them.

Israel should be supported very strongly and it's strengths constantly highlighted as its very existance should never be debated.

[azurnoir]

63. It is not Israel's internal civil rights accomplishments that is being written off however

it is the use of those 'accomplishments' as a PR tool something the Israeli government has invested a fair sum of money in doing

There are a number of other counties with civil rights that are superior to Israel's however those countries somehow do not seem to feel the need to advertise them

[shira]

67. When Israel's the only nation on earth whose existence is constantly under debate...

...it's no wonder some feel the need to advertise Israel's qualities.

[King_David]

76. Good for Israel for advertising them.

Now if only their culturally inferior bigoted medieval oppressive neighbors would take note and change their disgusting bigoted shit.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

3. the Palestinians should take advantage of it....

a country that respects the civil rights of its citizens is a good base for a stable society, and for the neighborhood.....whereas a society that rejects those very rights for its own, as far as i am concerned has no right to constitute a legal body within the international arena.

such societies are neither stable nor good for its citizens or the neighborhood
___

open societies by their very nature gives direct access to the "citizens", if the PA want peace they have to convince the citizens of israel, not the "leadership"..thats how intifada i got started and led to oslo and thats how intifada II closed it all down.

[King_David]

4. +1

[Name removed]

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[pennylane100]

24. I think it is Israel's disrespect of the civil rights of non citizens

that the Palestinian's have a problem with. However the Palestinians also need to start respecting the rights of their own citizens and the Israeli's should clamp down on their own misogynist religious groups that consider women to be second class citizens. The way I see it, both sides are hypocritical when they call out the other side but but do not practice what they preach.

[King_David]

29. Rubbish

There is no standing in law for the religious freaks in Israel .

In most Arab Countries or Palestinian territories not only is there no legal protection ,it is enshrined in their law.

There is no comparison whatsoever to Western Countries ( Israel,USA !UK,France. etc )

[King_David]

5. The Palestinians and the whole Middle East block of countries should be happy

and follow Israel's example and dump their bigoted retrograde medieval practices especially their policies relating to Women,Gays and minorities.

[Name removed]

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[King_David]

8. Iran is one of the worst offenders,

Iran should stop murdering Gays ,just for starters.

[Name removed]

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[King_David]

12. Do I want to answer your query?

ummm NO i do not want to.

Does that answer your query ?


( King David an adulterer and murderer ? I dunno and I also do not give a fuck. But he did have Jonathan ;) )

[Name removed]

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[Ken Burch]

22. Those practices are not the reason the IDF is in the West Bank, though

Those troops are ONLY there to keep Palestinians from achieving self-determination. They'd still be there if Palestine was a human rights utopia. And we both know it.

So enough about the childish gloating on the human rights issue. It's NOT why the Occupation is in place, it doesn't justify the Occupation, and while in the distant past countries have developed democratic values under foreign occupation that clearly can't happen this time.

The way to democratize Palestine is to leave them alone to do it themselves. It's racist to assume that Palestinians or other Arabs can't democratize on their own, especially since they are democratizing on their own all across the Arab world now.

[pennylane100]

25. Sadly, however, Egypt seems to be on ther verge of electin a new government

of Islamist. I have a bad feeling about their future willingness to give the people any new freedoms.

[Ken Burch]

26. It's not as if anything would have been better if Mubarak had been propped up in power

There was no excuse for his banning all secular opposition parties for thirty years. That ban is the main reason the Muslim Brotherhood grew in strength.

And the MB will be under great international pressure not to follow the path of Iran.

[pelsar]

27. wheres santa clause?...i know he's around here somewhere....

And the MB will be under great international pressure not to follow the path of Iran.

ooohh do you mean like the great international pressure on hamas in gaza? how about the incredible pressure on Saudi Arabia?....did we miss that? what happened to your "arab spring"...the one that was going to bring in democracy.....well?, did you misread the locals?

____

ok can't resist....why will their be "great intl pressure" on MB to give up their beliefs (would you give up your beliefs-didnt think so) So what is our conclusion? you think so little of the beliefs of those muslims who are members of the MB that they will throw away their beliefs because some people tell them to.

do you think so little of them because they are muslims? arabs?

[King_David]

30. They care as much about international pressure as Hamas does nt

[King_David]

31. Left alone and allowed to follow Iran to murder their Gay citizens

Fuck that.
Their must be no recognition of such states by the USA,Canada,Australia,Europe etc.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

36. hey...you learned something....congrats...

and while in the distant past countries have developed democratic values under foreign occupation that clearly can't happen this time.

at least you learned that in the past occupation did not stand in the way of a society becoming democratic. I would say it racist to believe that the Palestinians can't develop democracy under the occupation as well.

but the comedy keeps on coming:
especially since they are democratizing on their own all across the Arab world now.

did you miss the voting in egypt?....MB and their friends aren't really about democracy, or do you know now who the MB is?

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

39. why would israel drop bombs

when the Palestinians are protesting against their own facist/dictatorships?

of course they did try in gaza, but hamas very very quickly "put them in their place" I goess hamas doesn't need israel to oppress the Palestenians.

and in the west bank, its their own govt, that makes econ policy, restricts freedom of speech, has corrupt politicians, seems to me a Palestenains spring might bring some positive changes, assuming that the PA doesn't follow the hamas way of handling it.

maybe all those nice western students who are visiting the west bank might want to lend a hand to the Palestinians with their spring and teach them about western values so that there is not a repeat of hamas or the egyptian voting?

[Ken Burch]

70. the MB isn't winning majority support

there will be a lot of non-MB members of that legislature.

And we both know that keeping Mubarak in power(which we both know was impossible in any case, since you can't keep a leader in power when his entire country has turned against him)was never going to lead to the demise of the MB. How COULD it ever have led to that, when Mubarak's whole strategy, driven by his banning of all secular opposition parties, was to force as many anti-Mubarak people as possible into the MB, was designed to keep the MB growing in order to set up the false argument that the only possibilities were Mubarak or the MB.

If the MB takes power, it will need foreign support to avoid ending up in an Iran-like situation of isolation. This will give them an incentive to change their values. Look at the way that the Islamic fundamentalist party that leads Turkish government has changed its principles and acted in ways that cynics such as yourself insisted it could never act.

It takes decades, sometimes generations, to build democracy. They've just started trying to build them in the Arab world. Surely they deserve the chance, and nothing good would come on trying to force them back into the "safe tyrant" type of leadership that the U.S. and Israeli governments have championed. All dictatorships are the same. A dictator is a dictator is a dictator. And Iran would be just as repressive today if the Shah had stayed on, since he was NEVER going to allow his country to turn into a British-style constitutional monarchy.

[pelsar]

79. Islamists take two-thirds of Egyptian votes

thats called a majority.....

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4d196490-1e7b-11e1-a75f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1fdVQpmKd

as i see it you have two choices....the first is not change your point of view despite the fact that you are clearly wrong...(this is a test of an open mind, that makes conclusions based on events) vs the fanatic, closed minded person of belief, where events change nothing.....

and stop with the "we both know"....your far more wrong that right (you used to use the "we both know" when it took about 20 posts for you to learn that democracies can come out of occupations).

MB like khomeni will get foreign support, countries, don't interfere with the internal workings of a country unless they is some intl threat (the difference between Lybia and Syria bore that out-again your short of on history. The only reason their are sanctions on iran has nothing to do with shari law or their version of it, and everything to do with the bomb their making. Egypt probably will not be making any bomb, and hence will have no intl pressure. Unless you can give an actual reason for what you believe (i doubt it).

and the turkish govt/country......again short on history, its becoming more and more islamic over the years, not less.....just the opposite of what you believe....you still don't do any research before you write (and we both know why).

a visitor wrote:
It gives you a first-hand sight of the islamization process that changes this country. Although wherever you go you come across Kemal Ataturk's panels but in fact this country is veering away from his principles of modernization and moves backward in history. The one-day trip was modest and I wouldn't recommend it but it gives you an insight which should worry the prospective western visitor
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g781297-r72007906-Isparta_Isparta_Province.html

and finally
you actually believe that secular dictatorships are just as bad as theocratic dictatorships....i don't believe you know the difference, do you know the difference between hamas ruling vs abbas?

[Ken Burch]

81. Change my mind about what?

I would have to join the extreme right to believe that it would have been better to use brute force(which is what would have been required)to keep Mubarak in power, or to dismiss the Arab Spring. It would also be racist of me to do what I suspect you want me to do and to simply write off the Arab world as being incapable of freeing itself unless American troops intervene.

Mubarak could not have been preserved in office...and his current health situation proves he'd have had to retire in a few months in any case anyway...why do you refuse to accept that...and why belabor the embarrassing argument that the U.S. should have defended a tyrant like that? And it would have done no good to let him pass off power to his corrupt and useless sons, none of whom has demonstrated any talent for anything that would be of use to the people of Egypt.

It's unforgiveable enough that it defended the Shah, a man who never did anything to combat antisemitism in Iran in power just as Mubarak never fought against Egyptian antisemitism while he was in power, for decades).

And what message would the U.S. have sent to do what YOU presumably would have wanted and defended Mubarak by force? Doing that would have meant the U.S. would have lost, for the rest of eternity, the right to call for democracy or say it defended democracy anywhere.

There have been good things that people(not governments)in "the West" have stood for, but that doesn't mean "the West" is always entitled to act as if the rest of the world should treat us if we are "their betters". We very often aren't and we have very often made life worse for the non-European majority by putting the alleged needs of our corporations over the right of the non-European majority to have at least a relatively decent and humane standard of living. Freedom of speech, which I support, is meaningless if you're hungry, because hungry people don't have the strength to talk.

And, the most important thing to remember of all, there is no way that, even if Mubarak had been kept in power by soaking the streets of Cairo with blood(which is what would have been required, since surgical strikes would not have sufficed and since the U.S. isn't able to fire surgical strikes in any case)would have ever led to the collapse of the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB ONLY gained strength because Mubarak was in power for three decades and spent the whole time banning all secular opposition parties.

What do you mean "we both know why"? I do research. I just don't agree with you. The Turkish government(led by a party that I wouldn't have voted for)has continued to have free elections and has not followed a strict Islamic path. They have not suppressed the opposition, they have not abolished freedom of speech and they are reaching out to the Kurdish minority, something the secular governments never did.

And yes, secular dictatorships are just as bad, because, just as is the case with religious dictatorships, secular dictatorships don't allow reform. They don't voluntarily leave office. The Shah was never going to allow democracy and neither was Mubarak. And the status quo couldn't have been preserved any more than it could have been in Russia in 1917. At certain moments, history can't be stopped.

What good has ever come of outsiders saying to people who actually live in a particular country "we won't LET you rule yourselves, because we know better"?

(And no, Nazi Germany doesn't count an example of outsiders making a country better, because outside capitalists enabled Hitler to take and keep oiwer and outside governments helped him survive in power. It was never a case that everyone outside Germany wanted Hitler out and only Germans themselves supported him.)

[pelsar]

84. your still arguing with yourself....

you actually believe that secular dictatorships are just as bad as theocratic dictatorships.???

simple question...doesn't need a multi paragraph discussion with yourself on the specifics of mubarak....

btw, your not good at analysis of the arab street, if i recall you completely ruled out MB or the islamists getting power via the ballet box.....

[Ken Burch]

82. Why are you so obsessed with my past statements of what can and can't happen under occupations

it's a trivial point, really.

And why do you take a personally belittling tone to me when I never personally belittle you? All I've done is disagree with what your government does. That isn't a personal attack on you and it doesn't endanger you OR your country. The status quo is what endangers you and your country. The continued settlement expansion endangers you and your country. The day-to-day collective punishment of the entire Palestinian people endangers you and your country. Yet you seem to be perfectly content to defend all of that.

Why?

If none of the above has worked to end the conflict yet, why assume it ever could work?

[pelsar]

83. your past statements are enlightening...thats why

in the past you would write post after post how never in the history of the world has democracy come out of an occupation.....after about 100 posts with the three examples of germany, japan and israel, where you made all kind of excuses.....

you've finally accepted that yes in fact democracies did develop when there were occupations.
while in the distant past countries have developed democratic values under foreign occupation that clearly can't happen this time

----

so what were seeing with you is that when history proves you wrong, you need about 100 posts to accept it....sort of (i have no idea why its clear it can't happen this time...care to explain why? with the Palestinians having even more freedom than did the germans or japanese and jews pre 48)

[shira]

53. Ken, stop with the BS about the IDF in the West Bank...

The IDF and occupation should have been over a decade ago with the Clinton Initiatives which Arafat rejected and then later regretted...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

Olmert offered something better similar to the Geneva Accord.

Rejected.

Israel tried getting out of Gaza.

Failure due to rockets.

Maybe it's about time you place some of the blame for the continued occupation on the Palestinian leadership, who wants it all - Israel included.

[azurnoir]

9. yes Israel respects the civil rights of it's own citizens*

but not so much the non-citizens that live under its cruel and often violent military occupation

* the majority ones anyway the non-majority have problems like not being allowed to live in certain places where they are deemed to not fit the 'culture'

[Name removed]

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[King_David]

13. Israel and the Apartheid Slander

By RICHARD J. GOLDSTONE

Published: October 31, 2011

THE Palestinian Authority’s request for full United Nations membership has put hope for any two-state solution under increasing pressure. The need for reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians has never been greater. So it is important to separate legitimate criticism of Israel from assaults that aim to isolate, demonize and delegitimize it.

One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues “apartheid” policies. In Cape Town starting on Saturday, a London-based nongovernmental organization called the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will hold a “hearing” on whether Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid. It is not a “tribunal.” The “evidence” is going to be one-sided and the members of the “jury” are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

While “apartheid” can have broader meaning, its use is meant to evoke the situation in pre-1994 South Africa. It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

I know all too well the cruelty of South Africa’s abhorrent apartheid system, under which human beings characterized as black had no rights to vote, hold political office, use “white” toilets or beaches, marry whites, live in whites-only areas or even be there without a “pass.” Blacks critically injured in car accidents were left to bleed to death if there was no “black” ambulance to rush them to a “black” hospital. “White” hospitals were prohibited from saving their lives.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html

[Name removed]

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[King_David]

16. Israel and the Apartheid Slander

By RICHARD J. GOLDSTONE

Published: October 31, 2011

THE Palestinian Authority’s request for full United Nations membership has put hope for any two-state solution under increasing pressure. The need for reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians has never been greater. So it is important to separate legitimate criticism of Israel from assaults that aim to isolate, demonize and delegitimize it.

One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues “apartheid” policies. In Cape Town starting on Saturday, a London-based nongovernmental organization called the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will hold a “hearing” on whether Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid. It is not a “tribunal.” The “evidence” is going to be one-sided and the members of the “jury” are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

While “apartheid” can have broader meaning, its use is meant to evoke the situation in pre-1994 South Africa. It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

I know all too well the cruelty of South Africa’s abhorrent apartheid system, under which human beings characterized as black had no rights to vote, hold political office, use “white” toilets or beaches, marry whites, live in whites-only areas or even be there without a “pass.” Blacks critically injured in car accidents were left to bleed to death if there was no “black” ambulance to rush them to a “black” hospital. “White” hospitals were prohibited from saving their lives.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-th...

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[King_David]

18. I guess Goldstone considers it slander

Me too.

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[Ken Burch]

23. If you don't want Israel to be called an apartheid state

work to change the things that make people call it that.

Simply demanding that people stop saying that word serves no purpose.

[King_David]

32. You can't stop the enemies of the Jewish State from saying anything they want

But with the state of Israel being so strong their will be no repeat of the crimes against the Jewish people as there was in the last 2 centuries.

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[King_David]

45. (Jews) ' would then decide to turn around and do the same'

'attacked for millennia who were granted a homeland would then decide to turn around and do the same thing to another people.'

There is no insinuation on my behalf.

Your post is disgusting !

[Name removed]

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[King_David]

49. All I did was quoted your disgusting post. nt

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[pelsar]

46. i'll help...

what you have declared 'amazing" is based on false information:

if we stick to the facts as close as possible and use only definitions that come from a dictionary, your "truth" will be found very lacking.

for instante you wrote that the jews were scapegoated (true) and then claim that israel is doing the same to the Palestinians (scapegoating).....perhaps you want to explain how israel is "scapegoating"

A scapegoat is someone who is punished for the mistakes of others or a person who is always blamed for other people's wrong doings

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[pelsar]

51. hostage?

already its clear that you have trouble with the english language.....clearly you manipulate words, using emotion laden words to push your preferred point of view, the problem your have is that if you were to actually stick to real definitions, the ones used by real people and the dictionary you position would be precarious at best.....

The Jews have suffered cruelly for millennia. Knowing that why are the Palestinians allowed to suffer under Israeli dominance?
your question is based on willful ignorance, if you can't figure it out, then clearly you know little of the conflict

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[shira]

54. They're suffering so much that they rejected 2 credible peace plans in the last decade...

One that Arafat later regretted...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

And another from Olmert that was even better and comparable to the Geneva Accord...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x339970#340032

The Palestinians (leadership especially) aren't interested in just their own state as the Gaza withdrawal proves (rockets in response).

They even rejected their own state on 60% of the West Bank last year with temporary borders...
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3879974,00.html

=====

Can you imagine Tibetans, Kurds, Basques, Chechnyans, etc... rejecting one peace deal after another, preferring to be stateless?

Could it be that Hamas and the PLO are so insanely hateful and warmongering that they want.....everything? Including Israel? Would that explain the above?
:shrug:

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[shira]

61. See #60. n/t

[Ken Burch]

71. No. That isn't the case. Stop repreating Likudnik lies.

According to Bernard Avishai's article in the December issue of HARPER'S, it was actually Tzipi Livni, NOT Abbas, that rejected the last round of negotiations.

And Palestinians and even the other Arabs have made their own peace proposals.

I'd link to it but Harper's is a paid subscription thing online...but it's in the article "Abraham's Children".

Please stop pretending that "the Palestinian leadership" are the whole problem, and that Palestinians have no legitimate grievances with Israel. It has never been that simple, and it's childish to insist that the Palestinian actions have been driven solely or even primarily by "antisemitism".

Palestine's leaders are deeply flawed, but there has always been good reason for them to resist the status quo. Anyone else would have resisted being put in the same position by any other country.

[Name removed]

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[Dick Dastardly]

33. It certainly serves a purpose to confront those who make such ignorant accusations since it

is slanderous.
Your logic is absolute nonsense. Its like the logic of saying if black people dont want to be called the n-word they should work to change the things that make people call them that.

[azurnoir]

37. Lol what Ken was saying is more like if Black people don't want to be called the "n-word:"

then perhaps White people should work towards changing both their attitude and vocabulary but of course that just doesn't occur to some here I guess

[King_David]

41. No, I think what Dick said went right over your head nt

[azurnoir]

56. well apparently what KB said was above your head? However if your speaking of the comment

I replied to, no it did not at all it was hardly high minded it was indeed self serving IMO

but glad to see your reply

[shira]

55. Israel, unlike S.Africa, has offered statehood and self-determination to the Palestinians

Obviously if there's apartheid going on - and it's not - the Palestinians clearly prefer that to their own state.

Why else would they reject 2 credible peace deals to end the occupation within the last decade, without so much as making a reasonable counter-offer?

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[shira]

60. The Olmert deal was for the equivalent of 100%. With no counter-offer from the PA. n/t

[pelsar]

20. non citizens do not get the same right as citizens...

by definition.....no surprises there


and time for the traditional correction....this happens on probably every one of your posts.....so what part did you leave out this time?

the fact that "community discrimination includes every group, large and small..... this is true of the religious not letting in the non religious, arabs not letting jews in their villages, jews not wanting arabs, "artistic colonies with professional restrictions (no lawyers)..... etc

there now you've been corrected as per our tradition, i filled in the partial picture you like "drawing".......you may now rewrite a correction that states even the non-majority manages to preserve their culture by keeping out the majority, shall we wait ?

[azurnoir]

65. you mean noncitizens forced to live under Israel's military rule?

those noncitizens?

[shira]

68. Why are they forced? They've turned down one offer after another for their own state...

Which other people striving for self-determination have not only rejected credible offers for their own nation, but did so without even coming back with a reasonable counter-offer? And also swear to keep 'resisting' until the occupying country is destroyed?

Irish?

Kurds?

Tibetans?

Basques?

Chechnyans?

:shrug:

[azurnoir]

73. IMO the operative word is 'credible' eom n/t

[shira]

85. The 2000 offer was credible enough that Arafat regretted rejecting it. n/t

[azurnoir]

88. supposedly according to a Ha'aretz interview Arafat said he would accept the terms of Taba when put

simply with no ifs, ands, or buts, however they were not that simple were they? In Fact there were 22 pages of ifs, ands, or buts as seen here on this thread from last April

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=347701&mesg_id=347882

[shira]

89. The 2 main issues Israel had with the Parameters was sovereignty over the Temple Mount...

...and no refugees.

Arafat blew it.

Olmert offered even more but it's still all Israel's fault, right?

[pelsar]

80. yep...thats why its called an occupation......n/t

[Purveyor]

42. israel + civil rights = {{{chuckle}}} eom

[King_David]

44. You are right

My Gay friends who did a Multi-country Mid East tour did chuckle.

They chuckled lots once arriving in Israel where for the 1st time on their

tour they were allowed to check into a hotel as a couple.

(King size single bed . Hilton Tel Aviv )

Checking in to Hotel rooms and requesting a single bed in those other countries can get you killed.

Chuckle Chuckle Chuckle indeed ;)

[azurnoir]

57. so what other ME countries did they visit on this 'tour'?

and in what order?

[King_David]

62. Huh ?

That is an important question?

Why?

:wtf:

[azurnoir]

72. Curiousity of course

but your answer speaks for itself thanks :thumbsup:

[King_David]

78. Cheers

:thumbsup: