PM: We can't stop UN recognition of Palestinian state

[bemildred]

"No one can stop the United Nations General Assembly from recognizing the Palestinian state in September," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on said Monday.

Speaking before the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, the prime minister noted that "the UN can also adopt a resolution that the world is flat."

However, Netanyahu stressed that the UN will not be able to recognize the Palestinian state as a member of the United Nations without a recommendation from the Security Council, "and such an attempt is destined for failure," he said.

"We have no way of stopping the General Assembly from adopting a resolution. We expect to receive the support of only a small number of members," the prime minister added.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4075984,00.html

[dipsydoodle]

1. Maybe he should have said

We expect to receive the support of a number of small minded members.

[bemildred]

2. Livni: Netanyahu is too weak to prevent unilateral declaration of Palestinian state

Note the date.

Opposition Leader Tzipi Livni slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday for his failure to prevent the United Nations vote on a Palestinian state planned for September, calling him a weak and insufficient leader.

"Netanyahu has failed to recruit international support for Israel's basic principles, he has even failed to convince the U.S. to support us," Livni said, adding that "Israel needs a leader, and this government has missed its opportunity."

---

"I don’t know what is worse, the fact that you know what will save Israel and are afraid to make the decision, or that you are clueless," she said.

Livni went on to criticize Netanyahu for travelling next week to the United States without a prepared peace initiative, and said that it was "unacceptable that Israelis have to pay the price for Netanyahu's weakness."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/livni-netanyahu-is-too-weak-to-prevent-unilateral-declaration-of-palestinian-state-1.362151

[shira]

47. Livni would be too weak also. Oil buys many things, including Palestinian recognition. n/t

[bemildred]

48. You think Bibi is the best, the right guy for the job? nt

[bemildred]

3. Police: Recognition of Palestinian state could ignite violent protests

Israel is preparing itself for large-scale violent unrest, Police Commissioner Yohanan Danino said on Sunday, adding that social networks such as Facebook have changed the type of threats to Israel's sovereignty.

Israeli officials have voiced their concern that a plan by the Palestinian Authority to seek United Nations recognition of Palestinian independence would ignite West Bank violence, as well as bring about unrest in Israeli Arab communities.

Earlier this month, during the annual Nakba Day, which commemorates what Palestinians see as the "disaster" of Israel's establishment, more than 100 infiltrators crossed the Syria-Israel cease-fire line at Majdal Shams, and a total of 14 infiltrators were killed on the Syrian and Lebanese borders.

Speaking at a conference at the southern city of Eilat, Danino predicted that the various proclamations of a non-violent struggle would soon give way to violent protests as soon as an independent Palestinian state would be announced.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/police-recognition-of-palestinian-state-could-ignite-violent-protests-1.364811

[Mosby]

4. i think this is going to backfire on the palestinians

The average joe (european and american) is not going to get the convoluted, twisted logic of why the "refugees" can't be relocated to palestine after the UN vote to create a palestinian nation.

the msm might not be talking about the "refugees" right now but they will be in sept. Count on it.

[provis99]

5. huh?

what refugees? The ones in the West Bank and Gaza are already there...

[Mosby]

6. jordan, syria and lebanon have refugee camps

Where at least 3 million palestinians live. They are supported by american and european taxpayers via the un org UNRWA. There are also millions of registered palestinian refugees living outside the ME.

I don't think the palestinian leadership has really thought this through, I think its likely that as soon as the unga approves a palestinian state the us congress will vote to defund unrwa and relocate the refugees.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tootrueleft]

8. Incorrect. The GA can give state recognition to Palestine.

[oberliner]

9. The President of the UN General Assembly disagrees with you

Palestinian state requires UN council support

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The president of the U.N. General Assembly said Friday there is no way that a Palestinian state could become a member of the United Nations without a recommendation from the Security Council.

Joseph Deiss told a news conference that if the United States or any other permanent council member used its veto, the General Assembly would not be able to vote on membership for Palestine.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gyjeNnMkvktR2C74MnRuE53e8VBA?docId=75f14a4c737241f793dfa38fb90a707c

[tootrueleft]

10. No he doesn't. Recognising a state and granting it UN membership are two different things.

The GA can grant recognition to a palestinian state but can be then blocked from voting on its granting of UN membership by the SC.

[oberliner]

11. Yes he does - and they are not two different things

The GA can not "grant recognition" to a Palestinian state. Your information is simply wrong.

The United Nations does not recognize states. Individual U.N. members do that on a bilateral basis.

Membership in the United Nations is generally considered to be confirmation that a country is an internationally recognized sovereign state.

[tootrueleft]

12. From the article YOU posted where Deiss MAKES the distinction you are denying...

"Deiss, a former president of the Swiss Confederation and a former foreign minister who led Swiss voters to approve joining the U.N. in 2002, made a distinction between U.N. membership and recognition of Palestine as a state."

With all due respect, if you're going to post articles to prove people wrong, make sure that those articles don't actually prove them right. Reading said article often helps.

[oberliner]

15. Exactly - which is precisely the point I am making

As the UN GA President points out in the excerpt you bolded, states are free to recognize Palestine if they wish. One does not have to be a UN member in order to be recognized by other states. Many states, in fact, have already recognized Palestine.

However, the UN General Assembly does not and cannot recognize states.

Your post: "The GA can give state recognition to Palestine" is simply wrong.

I don't understand why you aren't getting this.

From the UN website:

Can a new State or Government be recognized by the UN?
How does a country become a member of the UN?

The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only States and Governments may
grant or withhold. The United Nations is neither and, therefore, does not possess any authority
to recognize a State or a Government.

<end of citation>

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer to you.

[tootrueleft]

16. LOL! you are so full of it. We'll let the other posters read the facts. Septembers gonna be fun...

[oberliner]

19. I reprinted the text directly from the UN website

Here is the citation again:

Can a new State or Government be recognized by the UN?
How does a country become a member of the UN?

The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only States and Governments may
grant or withhold. The United Nations is neither and, therefore, does not possess any authority
to recognize a State or a Government.

And here is the link:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1fkGuNpEIz4J:www.un.org/geninfo/faq/factsheets/memberstate.pdf+how+does+the+UN+recognize&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgIYy-Zl87ZVR503ThFiiE8FWxiKFAml4lP3Jngc_PmCiWkdfaV5Jplc9CFhkaEbk6nHo5Bb_W410POQ5TVECcop7C1gPbyiBw2B-LOPCDmatdXMLXDUffCJ6vzekSOSyHURDJB&sig=AHIEtbTIxNEztbYpI7KPirRGcX6vUWqY4w&pli=1

[tootrueleft]

22. YOUR link: "Deiss...made a distinction between U.N. membership and recognition of Palestine as a

state"

Or were you just selectively quoting to suit?

[azurnoir]

23. But there is more

A PLO official, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the issue, suggested that Deiss was not familiar with the UN charter, and was acting as a European diplomat who sought a return to negotiations rather than in his capacity as General Assembly president.

PLO official Saeb Erekat has said Palestinians would activate UN resolution 377 if faced with a US veto in September.

The "Uniting for Peace" resolution states that if the Security Council fails to act to maintain world peace and security, the General Assembly should consider the matter in an emergency session.

The session can be called at the request of seven members of the Security Council or by a majority of UN member states.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=391625

also posted as a thread without the snip I posted, interesting 'conversation'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x353854

[tootrueleft]

25. Yes indeedy. 377 provides a way forward following any self-humiliating veto by the US

bibi should have spent his time negotiating land swaps instead of insulting obama. Come september the settlers will find their illegal homes sitting on internationally recognised palestinian land.

[oberliner]

30. I would hope the poster above would have been able to clear things up for you

The settlers already find their illegal homes sitting on internationally recognized Palestinian land. Nothing in September would change that one way or the other.

You really just have no understanding of how the United Nations works.

Maybe check out their web site?

[oberliner]

29. Thank you for clarifying

I appreciate your stepping in with additional info.

[oberliner]

28. I don't understand what you are missing here

Right - there is a distinction: the UN can grant membership, but not recognition. That can only come from member states.

By granting membership, though, the UN is, in granting de facto recognition.

Thus, as far as the UN goes, they are one in the same.

The UN itself does not official recognize states as is evidenced from the links provided.

What the Palestinians are asking for from the UN is only able to be granted them via the Security Council - and it is membership in the UN.

[tootrueleft]

32. Wrong again. Check 377

[oberliner]

46. I hope this information helps you

Deiss, a former president of the Swiss Confederation and a former foreign minister who led Swiss voters to approve joining the UN in 2002, made a distinction between UN membership and recognition of Palestine as a state.

He said the requirements for UN membership are clearly stated in the UN Charter: A state has to fill out an application stating its adherence to the Charter, the 15-member Security Council must then make a recommendation the requires nine yes votes and no veto by a permanent member, and only then can the General Assembly vote on membership, which must be approved by a two-thirds majority.

Deiss said the Palestinians are also working to be recognized as an independent state by as many countries as possible.

"This is one way to get statehood and I think before the existence of the United Nations, this was the main track," he said.

So far, 112 nations have recognized Palestine, mostly in the developing world.

The Palestinians predict they will have 135 recognitions by September - more than two-thirds of the General Assembly.

Deiss recalled that General Assembly resolution 181 of 1947 already provides for the creation of two states, one Arab, one Jewish, at the end of the British mandate in Palestine. He said if the Palestinians get a large number of recognitions, this has to be taken into consideration along with the 1947 resolution.

"The General Assembly cannot take the initiative, but we are ready to do our work as soon as a recommendation of the Security Council will be addressed," Deiss said.

He said the UN cannot necessarily grant statehood, but to be a member of United Nations at least "gives you an international recognition and gives you also protection since one of the goals of the United Nations is to protect the sovereignty of its members."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinians-may-try-to-sidestep-u-s-veto-in-un-statehood-push-official-says-1.365376

[Shaktimaan]

40. but did he say anything...

about recognition of Palestine as a state being a function of the UN? Because if not then the quote seems to favor oberliner. He could have easily been referring to international recognition.

[bemildred]

17. Problems with nomenclature

There are three things at issue here, near as I can tell:

1.) Recognition of a state/government - something only other states may do, means you have ambassadors and official relations, etc.

2.) Admission as a member state in the UN - something which the UNGA does, but only with UNSC consent.

3.) A Resolution recognizing a state - something the UNGA may do whenever and as often as it chooses.

At least in theory, it appears that a government could be admitted to the UN without being recognized by anybody in particular on the state-to-state level, which except in international diplomacy would be weird. In international diplomacy, everything is weird.

It is worth remembering that the Palestine already has a permanent UN observer mission:

http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/

It appears the the Fatah/Hamas unity government intends to pursue all three of the above options.

[oberliner]

20. The UN General Assembly already recommended the creation of a Palestinian state on December 15, 1988

A/RES/43/177
15 December 1988
43/177. Question of Palestine

The General Assembly,

Having considered the item entitled "Question of Palestine",

Recalling its resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947, in which, inter alia, it called for the establishment of an Arab State and a Jewish State in Palestine,

Mindful of the special responsibility of the United Nations to achieve a just solution to the question of Palestine,

Aware of the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council in line with General Assembly resolution 181 (II) and in exercise of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people,

Affirming the urgent need to achieve a just and comprehensive settlement in the Middle East which, inter alia, provides for peaceful coexistence for all States in the region,

Recalling its resolution 3237 (XXIX) of 22 November 1974 on the observer status for the Palestine Liberation Organization and subsequent relevant resolutions,

1. Acknowledges the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988;

2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;

3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to take the necessary action to implement the present resolution.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/146E6838D505833F852560D600471E25

[bemildred]

24. Like I said, they can do as many as they like. nt

[oberliner]

27. Right - but what makes this significant, I think, is the potential Security Council involvement

And the veto from the US - whether or not it occurs.

[bemildred]

31. Well, I disagree, sort of.

In the sense that it remains to be seen how significant all this blather proves to be.

But to the extent that it does prove to be significant, the significance will be in the nature of further political isolation and criticism of Israel; Bibi has lost control of the debate, as Ms Livni pointed out so pungently in a piece I posted in another thread. But that's all it is, the propaganda war.

The "Arab Spring" is much more significant, it has lead to the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation and the failure of the Gaza policy since the withdrawal, and more generally I would expect thrown all sorts of policies and planning in Washington and Tel Aviv (among lots of other places) into the dumpster. The Arab Spring has at least the potential to be as significant as the Chinese Revolution, for example (I hope The Magistrate does not whack me for that, he knows a lot more about that than I do).

I mean what comes after Little Assad? What comes after Ghadffi? Where is Egypt going? Iraq? Iran? etc.? Nobody really knows. This is just the beginning.

I do think the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation could be important, for I/P, unified Palestinian political organization could have a lot of consequences, but it's much too early to say.

[oberliner]

33. Assad is still in power, so is Ghadaffi - and nothing has changed in Iran

One could argue that there hasn't really been any serious change in Egypt either in terms of who is running the show.

And revolts in Bahrain and elsewhere in the region appear to have not really taken hold.

I'm also not sure that the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation can be attributing to these goings on necessarily either.

Seems more like the last gasp of two parties that are in decline.

Remember that Fatah and Hamas were "unified" less than five years ago and we know how that turned out (or at least some of us do).

[bemildred]

34. IDF chief: Israel faces growing range of threats, from 'knife to nuclear'

The Israel Defense Forces will ask the state to increase its defense budget significantly to contend with the growing terror threats in the region, Chief of Staff Benny Gantz said on Tuesday.

"The spectrum of threats in light of the changes in the Middle East is growing," Gantz told the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. "These threats range from knife to nuclear – from the knife used in a single terror attack to a nuclear Iran."

"The threats of the past are still in force, but new threats are developing that require the ability to operate in a number of different theaters with strength and determination," Gantz said, adding that this "new spectrum of threats requires a new and broader budget framework for the defense establishment."

One such threat was the upcoming aid flotilla bound from Turkey to the Gaza Strip, one year after the deadly Israeli raid on the Mavi Marmara ship. "The flotilla organizers are working to inflame hatred and provocation against Israel and not out of desire to help the population in Gaza."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-chief-israel-faces-growing-range-of-threats-from-knife-to-nuclear-1.365145

[oberliner]

35. There were incoming flotillas and fears of Iranian nuclear attacks well before the "Arab Spring"

In fact, this article could've been written last year at this time, before any of the various revolutions of recent months.

[bemildred]

36. Ben Stein: "Arab Spring" is a fraud

Better?

Now, I am going to tell you the truth about the so-called "Arab Spring," and about the Middle East generally right now.

First, the "Arab Spring" as a force for democracy, human rights and peace in Egypt seems to me to be a fraud.

The dictator and his entourage who were kicked out in Egypt were pro-West, a bit restrained on Israel, open to free enterprise, and resistant to Iranian-sponsored terror.

Egypt is now rapidly becoming anti-Israel, pro-Iran, pro the Iranian-sponsored terrorist group Hamas, and very far from being pro-human rights. They are arresting businessmen right and left in Egypt just for the crime of being successful. They have arrested Mubarak's sons, and have said they plan to try Mubarak.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/15/sunday/main20063017.shtml

[oberliner]

41. Ben Stein? That man is a tool.

Can't we have an actual discussion instead of a "cut-and-paste" exchange of other people's articles?

[bemildred]

42. True.

WRT your other question: well, only if I want to, and while you and I do occasionally have what I would call discussions, most of the time our views seems to be too far apart, and simply arguing back and forth loses my interest quickly. I don't usually spend a lot time to write something thought out unless I think someone will read it sympathetically. That also applies to re-iterating views longs since pounded into the ground. Since my primary interest here is to keep up with the news and entertain myself, that works very well for me.

[oberliner]

43. Fair enough

I would note, however, that I do read what you post sympathetically and try to respond in kind most of the time.

I also think that we do share some measure of common ground on a lot of issues related to the conflict.

My central point is that the steps the Palestinians are taking now with respect to recognition and statehood were set into motion well before any of the "Arab Spring" related events of recent months.

[bemildred]

44. Most of these issues have been chewed over endlessly.

And it's not difficult to understand the different interests and points of view.

It is still certainly possible to argue, and I do, that the "Arab Spring" (a term which I don't think much of) is relevant and has already had and will have important effects.

[bemildred]

37. Humpty Obumpty and the Arab Spring

By Spengler

---

For 60 years, the Egyptian army and associated crony capitalists ran the economy as a private preserve. Although the army remains in nominal charge, the public humiliation of Mubarak serves notice on the previous masters of Egypt's little universe that they are as vulnerable as their former patron. Everyone who can get out will and will take with them whatever they can.

Syria is also vulnerable to hunger, the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) warned May 23. "Continuing unrest in Syria will not only affect economic growth but could disrupt food distribution channels leading to severe localized shortages in main markets," according to the FAO. ''Syria hosts one of the largest urban refugee populations in the world, including nearly one million Iraqis who have become more vulnerable because of rising food and fuel prices."

Nearly 700,000 Libyan refugees have reached Libya and Egypt, fleeing their country's civil war. At least 30,000 Tunisian refugees (and likely many more) have overwhelmed camps in Italy, and perhaps a tenth of that number have drowned in the attempt to reach Europe. A large but unknown number of Syrian refugees have fled to Lebanon and Turkey.

Robert Fisk wrote in the London Independent on May 30 that Turkey fears a mass influx of Syrian Kurdish refugees, so that "Turkish generals have thus prepared an operation that would send several battalions of Turkish troops into Syria itself to carve out a 'safe area' for Syrian refugees inside Assad's caliphate." The borders of the affected nations have begun to dissolve along with their economies. It will get worse fast.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MF01Ak01.html

[tootrueleft]

21. YOUR link: "Deiss...made a distinction between U.N. membership and recognition of Palestine as a

state."

People aren't idiots.

[bemildred]

13. Palestinians plan to approach UN Security Council about statehood in July

The Palestinian Authority plans to approach the United Nations Security Council in July to begin the process of getting Palestine recognized as a full member of the United Nations and to assure a vote on the matter by the General Assembly in September, Haaretz has learned.

The UN General Assembly is authorized to accept Palestine as a member state, but can do so only after it receives a recommendation to this effect from the Security Council. This is not likely to happen, because the United States vehemently objects to the Palestinians' unilateral efforts in the UN and it has veto power over Security Council decisions.

The Palestinians realize this, both Israeli and foreign diplomatic officials say, but they are interested in making sure that the United States is isolated on the Security Council and forced to exercise its veto.

The Palestinians will then ask the General Assembly to recognize Palestine as a state, without it being a full UN member.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/palestinians-plan-to-approach-un-security-council-about-statehood-in-july-1.365035

[Harmony Blue]

14. It seems the Palestinians are playing their chips correctly

They will purposefully approach the Security Council knowing that they will be rejected. But as a result they will garner more sympathy in the GA for the vote in the Fall while making those who rejected them in the security council foolish. A brilliant stroke of understanding the long term picture, and about time the Palestinians started to use political/diplomatic maneuvering.

[wuushew]

18. Palestine will be as real or more so than Kosovo

The situation is extremely comparible, only it is the U.S. not Russia who will play the foil.

[azurnoir]

26. Israel can not stop UN recognition of Palestine Israel expects the US to do that for them

and the US will almost certainly oblige, however the Palestinian leadership have made one thing clear they plan to make the US fulfilling it's 'obligation' to Israel as diplomatically expensive as possible but US politicians facing a tough election year will IMO do just that

[Never Stop Dancin]

38. no matter what happens

all wineries in Golan or anywhere else MUST REMAIN UNDER ISRAELI CONTROL. It would be a tragedy if those wineries got trashed like the greenhouses.

[Shaktimaan]

39. sigh... such a poor misquote of the far more articulate Abba Eban.

Speaking before the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, the prime minister noted that "the UN can also adopt a resolution that the world is flat."

The actual quote:

If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.

-Abba Eban

[oberliner]

45. I don't see that resolution getting 13 "no" votes

Probably only these six: U.S., Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau.

Maybe Canada.