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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:38 AM
Original message
Abbas: no talks without east Jerusalem building freeze
The Palestinian Authority will not return to peace talks with Israel unless there is a freeze on settlement building that includes east Jerusalem, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said on Sunday. "If there is no complete halt to settlements in all of the Palestinian
territories including Jerusalem, we will not accept," he said.

Abbas said the Palestinians and Israel had received no official US request to return to the talks, which began in September but stopped three weeks later after Israel refused to extend a freeze on new settlements in the West Bank. He was speaking to reporters after meeting Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Cairo

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3987573,00.html
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. No talks without:
(pick stumbling block of choice).
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And even when there are talks - they don't seem to go very far
Creative solutions must be found.
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arcticken Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Remember Einsteins definition of insanity?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The Palestinians, once again, are not only not ready for peace, but not ready to even DISCUSS peace.

Summary of a recent poll

http://www.theisraelproject.org/atf/cf/%7B84dc5887-741e-4056-8d91-a389164bc94e%7D/NOV2010_PALESTINIANPOLLTOPLINE.PDF

A Palestinian state should be run by Sharia Law. 55%
A Palestinian state should be run by civil law. 35%

The best goal is for a two state solution that keeps two states living side by side. 30%
The real goal should be to start with two states but then move to it all being
one Palestinian state. 60%

Israel has a permanent right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. 23%
Over time Palestinians must work to get back all the land for a Palestinian state. 66%

In 2000, President Bill Clinton proposed a Palestinian-Israeli peace agreement in which the Palestinians would receive an independent state, which included Gaza and nearly all of the West Bank, using the 1967 green line, exchanging Israeli land for larger settlements. It made East Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state, with control over Palestinian quarters of the Old City. Yasir Arafat rejected this offer. In retrospect, do you wish Arafat had accepted this peace agreement - yes or no?
Yes: 24%
No: 71%

New strategy? "Get back to us when you are ready and serious."
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Aw heck, no matter how you shake it out...
they already have two states: The West Bank and Gaza. Hmmm, if they get three, can they make it one?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. poll on two state solution
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 02:52 PM by Douglas Carpenter
Mr. Netanyahu claims to want peace while at the same time promising the radical settler movement that there will never, ever be any evacuation of any settlers ever - and that any limited freeze on settlement expansion is only temporary and will never again be repeated - thus making a peace settlement based on the two-state solution completely impossible and out of the question.

It is not simply the words that the Israeli state issue, which are frequently very fine words about wanting peace, it is the expansion, expansion and expansion that makes viable Palestinian economy and independence impossible - thus a peace settlement implausible at least for the foreseeable future.




Polling Data

Some believe that a two-state formula is the favored solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict, while others believe that historic Palestine can’t be divided and thus the favored solution is a bi-national state on all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation and rights. Which of these solutions do you prefer?

Two-state solution: an Israeli
state and a Palestinian state
52.4%

Bi-national state on all
of historic Palestine
23.6%

No solution
9.4%

One Palestinian state
7.4%

Islamic state
2.9%

Others
2.0%

Don’t know
1.0%

No answer
1.3%

Source: Jerusalem Media & Communication Center
Methodology: Interviews with 1,197 adults in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, conducted on Jun. 21 and Jun. 22, 2006. Margin of error is 3 per cent.


http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/9139/palestinians_clearly_prefer_two_state_solution/





The Myth of the Generous Offer:
Distorting the Camp David negotiations




By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."




regarding the Taba Talks:

Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.

Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip:"Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

-----------

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman


------------------------

Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements
Palestinians pledge to work with Sharon



January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks." link:

http://premium.europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/06/mideast.palestinians.02/index.html

"Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes." link:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html?nclick_check=1#axzz15wf2sYiy


“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=10&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref

.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Another interesting poll tidbit you might want to include (from October of this year)
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 04:26 PM by oberliner
Concerning armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel, I….


1) Strongly support


14.4


2) Support


34.6


3) Oppose


43.2


4) Strongly oppose


6.0


5) DK/NA


1.8

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p37e.html

That's about half the Palestinian population who explicitly support killing Israeli civilians inside Israel.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. unfortunately once it became clear that Israel has no intentions of freezing settlement expansion
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 05:14 PM by Douglas Carpenter
except in the most limited manner and only temporarily - and there appears to be no hope for a viable Palestinian state - attitudes have hardened. There is no denying that. If one compares polls from only a few years ago versus now - we can see that this is the case. The Palestinians now know that there is no hope that Israel will accept a viable two-state solution - so sadly the positions have stiffened. I cannot think of any liberation struggle in the history of the world that did not include a fair number of terrorist attacks.

One of the reasons why I got tired of debating this issue is that I have had to accept that as advisable as a two-state solution may be - it is simply not going to happen. I have to agree with Professor John Mearsheimer that the two-state solution is the most reasonable prospect for peace that could at least in theory be achieved in a relatively short period of time. But it is simply not going to happen. Which means that we will have for some time a greater Israel that becomes increasingly apartheid in its nature and will also increasingly lose its legitimacy and viability. But a lot of blood will be shed before a peaceful and lasting solution will be achieved. Thus further stressing America's relationships and interest with the Arab and Islamic world and greatly increasing the possibility a greater and perhaps catastrophic clash of civilization . I once had hope that this could be avoided. But reality no longer supports that hope.


Professor John Mearsheimer:The Future of Palestine: Righteous Jews vs. the New Afrikaners

The Palestine Center
Washington, D.C.
29 April 2010

link:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/d/ContentDetails/i/10418

.

.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Those numbers have stayed pretty consistent - they haven't hardened
About half the Palestinian population has supported attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel at about the same numbers over the years.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. given that far, far more Palestinians civilians are actually killed by the Israelis
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 06:01 PM by Douglas Carpenter
in support of the occupation - it would not be too surprising that such attitudes exist.

If we look at other liberation struggles such as the ANC in South African - I don't know of any statistics on the matter - but clearly there was broad support for the armed struggle side of the conflict. Unfortunately throughout the history of all such conflicts such attitudes are common - there is hardly something unique about this. But I would agree that the Palestinians at least at this time and at least for the foreseeable future - armed struggle is counterproductive.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
40. How many Iraqis support violent attacks against US citizens inside the US?
I wonder how those numbers would compare with these considering the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed by US forces.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. I wonder how a similar poll taken of Native Americans in the 1820's
would have come out.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. if the U.S. was built upon the homeland of the Iraqi people who had fled or been expelled
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 11:27 PM by Douglas Carpenter
and then brutally subjugated and denied the right to return to their homes and treated as an inferior people with inferior rights everywhere in their homeland - I would guess the number might be quite high
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I wonder how a similiar poll amongst Israeli's would turn out ? n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Among Israelis, what question would you ask and what would you expect their answer to be? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. IMO the question should obvious as to he answer
well the "massive protests" in Israel lead by a majortity of Israeli Jews against the killing of Palestinian civilians during OCL would an answer......... oh wait
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Please be clear. What would the question and answer be in your opinion? In fact...
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 06:51 PM by shira
...I'll be a volunteer for you.

Ask away and I'll answer.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. lol and a completely trustable and unbiased answer I am sure n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Come on, give it a try. Like Meretz and most Israelis, I was for OCL so fire away. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I think we have already seen your take
Hamas "forced" Israel to bomb schools, mosques, civilian homes........ Israel had no other chioce anything less would have amounted to no self defense
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. So WRT this "similar poll" of Israelis, you think at least half are for attacks on Pal'n civilians?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I think a more salient question would be exactly which Palestinians do Israeli's consider civilian
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Those who don't volunteer to work with the Hamas militia or Islamic Jihad...? n/t
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. A large majority would vote no.
A vast majority of Israelis disgustingly undervalue the lives and rights of Palestinian civilians, but relatively few view killing them as an end in itself.

Remember, Israel currently controls all the disputed territories and a great deal more besides, and is steadily taking more. An end to the violence on those terms would be absolutely fine with Israel.
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arcticken Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. A vast majority based on WHAT proof? Or is
just some biased opinion of yours? I'll vote latter.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The last Israeli election, among other things... N.T.
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arcticken Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Oh for f...k's sake. Either give a rational answer or
don't say anything.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. The Israeli equivalent of the Democratic party won the last Israeli election
Sadly, their system doesn't award the PM to the party with the most seats or most votes.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Arguably, but that doesn't make it left-wing.

Depends what you mean by "equivalent". Kadima is not the most-left-wing major party in its country, which the Democrats are. In terms of specific policies, Kadima is to the left of the Democrats on domestic issues. However the I/P issue - on which both Kadima and many (most?) of the Democrats have fairly (very, in the case of some Democrats) right-wing views - makes up a much larger part of Kadima's political platform than of the Democrats, meaning that on average it's more rightwing/less leftwing.
us OCL.

Also, by the standards of most Western nations neither Kadima nor the Democrats is a left-wing party.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Depends how you define those terms
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 11:44 AM by oberliner
If you go by US standards, then Kadima is more left-wing than our most prominent left-wing party, the Democratic Party.

Which parties among the "Western nations" are you identifying as left-wing among those who are popular enough to be the leading party of a governing coalition?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. The answer you get depends on the question being asked...
If the question being put was:-

"Do you think that the IDF should be able to act in the territories freely and in its unfettered discretion, regardless of how many Palestinians would be killed?"

I think a substantial majority of Israelis would say yes.

It is much the same with the Americans and Iraq. Most Americans are quite content with the amount of civilian dead in Iraq and Afghanistan, or even, frankly, the 4000 dead American soldiers, as long as it does not inconvenience them personally. On the other hand, even a very modest inconvenience (such as having to walk through a body scanner at the airport) can raise much more ire amongst the American public, even though as sacrifices go, its not exactly comparable to a war widow's lost son or the sacrifices that Iraqis have had to make to the "war on terror".

Similarly, the Palestinians have stronger views on the occupation than the Israelis, but this is because the occupation imposes itself upon them to a much greater extent.



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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. IMO the outcry or almost total lack there of from Israeli's
during and after OCL spoke louder than any poll
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. it is indeed an interesting poll one that should be read in it's entirety
http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p37e.html#table

quote from title page

While the Majority Opposes Return to Negotiations Under the Shadow of Settlement Construction, and While the Majority Opposes Alternatives to Negotiations Such as Violence, the Dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, or the Adoption of a One-State Solution, and While the Majority Supports Alternatives Such as Going to the UNSC, a Unilateral Declaration of Statehood, and Resort to Non-Violent Resistance, the Overwhelming Majority has no Confidence in the Efficacy of any of the Alternatives it Supports

hmmmm maybe there is more to the poll than the one oh so popular question quoted by some here

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. AWRAD poll of Palestinians: 85.2% reject peace deal with Palestinian state if requires compromise
Edited on Sun Nov-21-10 06:40 PM by shira
From November 2010...

======

If Palestinian negotiators delivered a peace settlement that includes a
Palestinian State but had to make compromises on key issues (right of
return, Jerusalem, borders, settlements, etc.) to do so would you support
the result? Yes 12.2% No 85.2% Don’t know 2.6%

With regard to the final status of Palestine and Israel please indicate
which of the following you consider to be Essential, Desirable, Acceptable,
Tolerable, or Unacceptable as part of a peace agreement.

Historic Palestine – From the Jordan River to the sea
Essential 64.8% Desirable 18.3% Acceptable 8.8% Tolerable 4.5%
Unacceptable
2.6% Don't know 1.0%

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=49912

======

So 97% of Palestinians are strongly for or at least tolerant of historic Palestine between the River and Sea while only 3% of Palestinians find that unacceptable.

:eyes:
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. why is it that the next question in the poll is showcased in your link?
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 01:51 AM by azurnoir
In your opinion, which of the above scenarios is the most realistic/achievable?

West Bank Gaza Total

Historic Palestine – From the Jordan River to the sea 26.0% 37.4% 30.5%

One State Solution – Israelis and Palestinians share
power and are equal citizens between the Jordanian
River and the sea.
16.5% 9.7% 13.8%

Two state solution - Two states for two peoples: Israel
and Palestine according to UN resolution
46.9% 41.8% 44.8%

Confederation between West Bank and Jordan and
between Gaza and Egypt
10.7% 11.0% 10.8%

http://www.awrad.org/pdfs/English_tables-Ocotober2010.pdf

so the question your link seems to promote as the definitive is in reality only imaginary
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. It's your choice to ignore/minimize whatever you wish...
Here's more from another recent poll...

A Palestinian state should be run by Sharia Law. 55%

The real goal should be to start with two states but then move to it all being one Palestinian state. 60%

Over time Palestinians must work to get back all the land for a Palestinian state. 66%

In 2000, President Bill Clinton proposed a Palestinian-Israeli peace agreement in which the Palestinians would receive an independent state, which included Gaza and nearly all of the West Bank, using the 1967 green line, exchanging Israeli land for larger settlements. It made East Jerusalem the capital of the Palestinian state, with control over Palestinian quarters of the Old City. Yasir Arafat rejected this offer. In retrospect, do you wish Arafat had accepted this peace agreement - yes or no?

No: 71%

=======

http://www.theisraelproject.org/atf/cf/%7B84dc5887-741e-4056-8d91-a389164bc94e%7D/NOV2010_PALESTINIANPOLLTOPLINE.PDF
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. and which West Bnk residents were polled?
are we supposed to just assume?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. You're doing it again, now assuming the poll is flawed when you don't like the results. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. if Palestinians want sharia why do they seem to prefer secular leaders?
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 06:17 AM by azurnoir
as the PCHR poll posted in #16 clearly shows both Abbas and Marwan Barghouti are preferred over Haniyeh
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. PCHR doesn't do polls
They are the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Thanks for your input it is the same poll that you and shira have been promoting
one question from and it really does not answer the question why if Palestinians want sharia law do they support secular leaders?

a link to the poll again

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p37e.html#table
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research
I definitely promote their polls and urge folks to read them.

You must have mixed up your acronyms. PCHR has nothing to do with this group.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. yes I did confuse acronyms but that still doesn't answer the question
the poll shows quite clearly that both Mahmoud Abbas and Marwan Bargouti who are secular are preferred over Ismail Haniyeh who does seem to promote Sharia law as leader of the Palestinian people, so if the TIP poll is accurate that a majority of Palestinians desire Sharia law why would this be?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Because Haniyeh is a terrorist?
Maybe that has something to do with it.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. but Marwan Bargouthi is also in an Israeli prison for terrorism and he has
the greatest support more so than even Abbas, so am I to take it you believe this poll that Palestinians want sharia law?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. What is so terrible about Sharia law?
Seems to be the latest bogeyman.

I'd be more worried about the Israelis who want to see Israel adhere more strictly to the laws of the OT.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. that would depend on which of the many facets of Sharia law
one is referring to, and the interpretation of what is Sharia law that is being held as fact

IMO TOP is hoping for the "popular" interpretation of Sharia law that is common today and is described here

Confusion between Sharia and customary law

According to Jan Michiel Otto, Professor of Law and Governance in Developing Countries at Leiden University, "Anthropological research shows that people in local communities often do not distinguish clearly whether and to what extent their norms and practices are based on local tradition, tribal custom, or religion. Those who adhere to a confrontational view of sharia tend to ascribe many undesirable practices to sharia and religion overlooking custom and culture, even if high ranking religious authorities have stated the opposite." Professor Otto's analysis appears in a paper commissioned by the Netherlands Foreign Ministry.<52>

This page was last modified on 21 November 2010 at 10:44.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Well now they prefer Fatah, but 5 years ago they elected Hamas.
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 06:06 PM by shira
Perhaps a significant percent out of the 55% who support Sharia law just don't like Hamas very much and would prefer secular Fatah.

Not that much different than religious loonies in America voting for a more moderate alternative.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. 5 years ago Hamas won a slight majority of seats in the PA
parliament however Fatah still lead
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. They won a lot more than a "slight majority of seats"
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 11:13 PM by oberliner
Hamas won 74 seats to Fatah's 45.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Fatah still led and Hamas was not as "some" falsely assert
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 11:58 PM by azurnoir
chosen to lead the Palestinians
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:07 AM
Original message
What are you talking about?
Hamas had more seats than Fatah by a significant margin after that election.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
60. what are you talking about Fatah still had the Presidency
that is quite like saying the US will be led by Republicans it will not
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. actually when counting the votes the difference was relatively small
Leader Ismail Haniyeh Hamas Farouk Kaddoumi Fatah Ahmad Sa'adat PFLP
Party
Leader's seat Party-list Party-list Party-list
Seats won 74 45 3
Seat change +74 -10 +3
Popular vote 440,409 410,554 42,101
Percentage 44.45% 41.43% 4.25%

This page was last modified on 9 November 2010 at 01:11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Your comment was about seats not about the popular vote
As far as seats go, it wasn't close at all.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. the vote count was close though
Hamas 440000 to fatah 410000
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. why is it that the next question in the poll not showcased in your link?
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 03:36 AM by azurnoir
In your opinion, which of the above scenarios is the most realistic/achievable?

West Bank Gaza Total

Historic Palestine – From the Jordan River to the sea 26.0% 37.4% 30.5%

One State Solution – Israelis and Palestinians share
power and are equal citizens between the Jordanian
River and the sea.
16.5% 9.7% 13.8%

Two state solution - Two states for two peoples: Israel
and Palestine according to UN resolution
46.9% 41.8% 44.8%

Confederation between West Bank and Jordan and
between Gaza and Egypt
10.7% 11.0% 10.8%

http://www.awrad.org/pdfs/English_tables-Ocotober2010.p...
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. Not when land expropriation is an ongoing enterprise.
I can understand why the Palestinians just don't see much point.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Thousands of settlers converge in Jerusalem to protest U.S. freeze proposal
Thousands of Israeli West Bank settlers and their supporters converged on Jerusalem Sunday morning to protest a possible freeze in construction in their settlements, as proposed by the United States in order to get peace talks going again.

The sex-segregated rally drew some 5,000 people to the Prime Minister's Office in Jerusalem. It was organized largely by regional councils, and most of the participants seemed to be under 30. Settler leaders described it as a "warning" strike against accepting the freeze.

Infrastructure Minister Uzi Landau left the cabinet meeting to join in the protest.

"We said that we won't get out of the Golan or the Jordan Valley, we said that we won't return to the 1967 lines, which are the Auschwitz lines, and that we won't divide Jerusalem or evacuate the settlements," said Landau. "But every year we see that the governments are willing to make concessions."

In using the term "Auschwitz lines," Landau was alluding to former Foreign Minister Abba Eban's comment that the June 1967 lines pose such a danger to Israel as to recall Auschwitz.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/thousands-of-settlers-converge-in-jerusalem-to-protest-u-s-freeze-proposal-1.325924
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arcticken Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Ah, democracy. n/t
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Ah, sex segregated rallies and megaGodwinizing.
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arcticken Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. That's the TROUBLE with Democracy, is it not?
So what do you suggest in its place?
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Is most of Democracy sex segregated?
Well, I guess quite alot of it is in the general region. :shrug:
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