Two Israeli soldiers ‘take fall’ for Gaza offensive

[oberliner]

Almost two years since the Israeli army's Cast Lead offensive in Gaza, two soldiers have been convicted of using a Palestinian boy as a human shield during the operation. A military court found the staff sergeants guilty of "inappropriate behaviour" and exceeding their authority "to the point of endangering life", after hearing evidence that the pair ordered the nine-year-old to open bags suspected of containing explosives.

Using civilians as human shields is strictly forbidden under Israeli law, in line with the Geneva Convention's proscription of the procedure, and although the IDF has for years faced accusations of continuing the practice, this is the first case of its kind to result in a conviction.

While human rights campaigners welcomed the court's verdict, there were suspicions from both supporters and critics of the accused that the soldiers had been made fall guys to placate an outside world still furious at Isarel's handling of the Cast Lead hostilities in December-January 2008-09.

Despite over 150 internal investigations being opened by the Israeli military into alleged misconduct by its troops during the assault on Gaza, only 36 have been referred for criminal prosecutions, and – until yesterday's verdict – only one conviction has been handed down by the courts, in the case of a soldier accused of petty theft.


Read more: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/69541,news-comment,news-politics,two-israeli-soldiers-take-fall-for-human-shield-incident-in-gaza-offensive-idf#ixzz11xFZ9ev5

[howard112211]

1. "But Hamas uses human shields"

oh wait...

[oberliner]

2. They ought to be prosecuted as well

There should be accountability across the board.

[shira]

3. You think what the IDF did in this case is worse than what Hamas routinely does with Palestinians?

FTR, these soldiers should be held accountable.

[Tripmann]

4. Hamas don't like to be referred to as the worlds most moral army (tm)

[shira]

5. Can you answer the question? Hamas' use of Palestinians as shields, worse than IDF actions? n/t

[Tripmann]

6. Exactly the same. But, unlike the IDF, nobody round here excuses hamas atrocities.

[oberliner]

7. And unlike the IDF, the Palestinian side has not tried and convicted anyone of such behavior

Also - not sure that anyone has excused this behavior on the Israeli side. I certainly don't.

[Tripmann]

8. The OP is about the IDF, nothwithstanding your usual 'noun verb hamas' look over there BS.

Reply directed at shira, oberliner. I missed that it was you posting.

[oberliner]

9. Hamas is an active player in the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

The "noun verb 9/11" comment only made sense as an insult because 9/11 happened years ago.

The knock on Guiliani was due to his bringing up this incident to excuse a wide variety of actions on the grounds that they were somehow justified because of what happened on 9/11 or to rouse some kind of rah rah patriotism in response to the incident.

To use the "noun verb hamas" gag every time Hamas is brought up is a good way of muzzling any type of discussion about the group whose actions are directly and intimately connected to the actions of the IDF in the here and now.

If Palestinian "resistance" groups like Hamas and others did not conduct themselves the way that they did, the concordant behavior would be different as well.

It is preposterous to suggest that Hamas is not relevant to this discussion, just as it would be preposterous to suggest that bringing up Israel would not be valid in the context of discussing the actions of the Palestinians.

[Tripmann]

12. The OP has nothing to do with hamas, despite the usual suspects efforts.

[oberliner]

13. But the first response to the OP was about Hamas

And this sub-thread is in reply to that first comment.

[Tripmann]

14. Ah yes, the blataintly tongue in cheek post.

What a convenient oportunity to drag the topic off on an unrelated tangent.

[oberliner]

16. I thought I made a pretty concise and relevant reply

There was no attempt to drag anything into an unrelated tangent.

My comment was simply: 2. They ought to be prosecuted as well. There should be accountability across the board.

That very much could have been the end of it - as I would imagine that was a pretty uncontroversial response.

I would also note that I myself posted the OP - so I have, in fact, introduced the topic itself - which no one (other than the first tongue-in-cheek poster) has seen fit to make any comment on.

[shira]

17. They really don't care what Arab leaders do to Palestinians, or Israelis, for that matter.

The real fun for them is dumping on Israel, their favorite sport.

[shira]

10. Same? Hamas does it at least 100x more against people you purport to care about. Am I right?

Does that bother you, because I never see you and those like yourself here condemning Hamas for what they do to Palestinians.

OTOH, no one here excuses IDF wrongdoing.

[Tripmann]

11. I don't distinguish between one set of thugs using human shields and another because they happen to

be my sides thugs.

[shira]

15. It appears you do. Have you ever condemned Hamas for using the Palestinian population for shields?

Also where is your concern WRT holding Hamas responsible for their actions that affect at least 1000x more Palestinians than similar IDF actions?

There's more International Press about the few occurences of IDF human shielding than Hamas' wholesale use of the same method against the entire Palestinian population.

I suspect that doesn't bother you in the least.

Lastly, what do you have to say about Israel dealing with and prosecuting these offenses?

[Tripmann]

18. Yes I have, and you know it. I condemn every act of people being used as human shields.

Do you condemn israel for killing hundreds of innocent women and children during ocl?

[shira]

19. When have you done so before today, WRT Hamas for example?

As to Israel or any other country, I'm totally against any unnecessary deaths and am for holding the guilty accountable.

[Tripmann]

20. I have done so here in I/P. Do you condemn israel killing hundreds of women and kids during OCL?

[shira]

21. Where and when? And I just answered your question....

....whether during OCL or any conflict, unnecessary or disproportionate killings are reprehensible and should be prosecuted.

[Tripmann]

22. I answered the question previously when you asked me. So what was the killing of hundreds

of innocent women and children by israel, unnecessary or disproportionate??

[shira]

23. (edited) I've never seen you once condemn Hamas for using Palestinians as shields.

Now out of those hundreds of women and children killed during OCL, about what percentage would you say were killed due to Hamas using them as their shields?

I'll remind you that Hamas did everything they could to maximize their own civilian casualties.

They used the Gazan population as a human shield, stole food sent in by Israel to the Palestinian population, deliberately fired from civilian populations, dressed as civilians, used child combatants, stored weapons in and boobytrapped homes, mosques, and schools, hid within the main Gaza hospital, and comandeered ambulances for military purposes.

You now have a chance to condemn Hamas for all this and give your opinion as to what percentage of Palestinian civilians killed during OCL were Hamas' fault.

Don't let us down.

[Tripmann]

24. I'm not spending sunday searching DU when we both know I said it previously.So,again,I do condemn it

[Tripmann]

25. So, Do you condemn israel for killing hundreds of innocent women and children during OCL?

[shira]

26. I'm giving you a chance right now to do so and I've answered you multiple times already...

Now out of those hundreds of women and children killed during OCL, about what percentage would you say were killed due to Hamas using them as their shields?

I'll remind you that Hamas did everything they could to maximize their own civilian casualties.

They used the Gazan population as a human shield, stole food sent in by Israel to the Palestinian population, deliberately fired from civilian populations, dressed as civilians, used child combatants, stored weapons in and boobytrapped homes, mosques, and schools, hid within the main Gaza hospital, and comandeered ambulances for military purposes.

You now have a chance to condemn Hamas for all this and give your opinion as to what percentage of Palestinian civilians killed during OCL were Hamas' fault.

Don't let us down.

[Tripmann]

27. No you haven't.Do you condemn israel for killing hundreds of innocents during OCL, yes or no?

[shira]

28. Do you believe none of those hundreds of civilian deaths are due to Hamas deliberate shielding?

As to OCL, I'm always against members of the IDF indiscriminately killing civilians or making bad decisions to kill civilians in order to take out a few terrorists when the situation doesn't demand such an action.

[Tripmann]

29. So you're refusing to condemn the killing of inocent women and children by israel during ocl?

[shira]

30. I just answered you again. I note you won't blame Hamas for any Palestinian civilian deaths in OCL.

[Tripmann]

31. No you didn't.Yes or no,do you condemn israel for the deaths of innocent women & children during OCL

[shira]

32. (Final post) So you believe all deaths in OCL were Israel's fault despite Hamas shielding?

Since that appears to be the case, there's nothing for you to condemn WRT Hamas actions.

You can't even hold them responsible now, as I've repeatedly stated.

Their methods of using children as combatants, hiding within schools and hospitals, stealing food, mixing in with civilians......has no bearing at all to you WRT any Palestinian deaths incurred during OCL.

Israel is to blame for everything. They must be demonized. We must pretend Israel indiscriminately and randomly killed civilians out of sheer malice. Because those Zionists are evil and bloodthirsty subhumans. Because Palestinians deserved it. Those Zionist monsters!!! How can anyone NOT condemn such actions? You can't help but reinforce these very ugly stereotypes.To blame Hamas for anything is to take Israel's actions during OCL into context, and you won't have that.

You've proven my point.

[Tripmann]

33. No condemnation from you.So,human shields=unacceptable,dropping bombs on human shields=acceptable.Ta