"Who's really under siege?" - fine analysis of israel hopeless isolation, in the haaretz

[demoleft]

In its latest, catastrophic attempt to enforce the Gaza siege, Israel has demonstrated that in fact, it is under siege - one it has imposed upon itself. Many Israelis are finding it hard to fathom the results of Monday's failed commando raid on the Turkish aid flotilla, which resulted in the deaths of foreign citizens. Those who believe that the blockade of the Gaza Strip must end, and even those who believe the operation was justified, realize that this is the time to reevaluate some of the anachronistic attitudes of those charged with defending the country.
...
Moreover, what will Israel do with the next flotilla? Or when the United States ceases to show understanding for Israel's position? Or when the number of casualties is higher? And what will the army do when countries like Turkey begin providing military escorts to such civilian flotillas? The military's response to this week's challenge suggests a lack of understanding of the nature of the conflict, and makes one wonder: Who endangers our security more? The human rights activists and the militants who have linked up with them, or those who determine Israel's defense policy?

It is not just Gaza that is under blockade. Israel is isolating itself from the world with its systematic policy of humiliating those who try to enter and leave the country.

it is signed by Anat Lapidot-Firilla, on the haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/who-s-really-under-siege-1.294147

[LARED]

1. a "commando raid "

"Commandos" with paint ball guns, engaging in perfectly legal activity, then getting the crap beat out of them does not sound like much of a commando raid.

[aquart]

2. "paint ball guns"?

[shira]

4. Yep, here's an article from ABC. Israeli "intelligence" obviously didn't expect an ambush.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/01/2915586.htm?section=world

The planning for this ambush was set up far in advance of the IDF trying to commandeer the boat (as the boat's security camera shows)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded

Here's a song of peace just before the launch of the flotilla...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

Can you feel the love?

Of course, it makes for a juicier story that the IDF fired first and the "humanitarians" tried surrendering with white flags before being goaded into beating the fuck out of ill equipped IDF commandos armed with paintball rifles...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

The world's in truly deep shit when these "humanitarian peace activists" are hailed as heroes on a modern day Exodus ship trying to feed the starving masses in their concentration camps (look at all the photos and video here)....
http://israelseen.com/2010/05/27/free-gaza-fancy-restaurants-olympic-size-swim-pools-what-the-media-won�t-report-about-gaza/

Meanwhile there's a REAL blockade, starvation, and humanitarian crisis going on in Yemen right now...
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/knew-about-yemen-blockade-right-t42141.html

Where's the outrage? :shrug:

Doesn't matter obviously because Zionists/Israelis can't be blamed.

Of course, there's nothing to see in all this hasbara propaganda as Israelis and their supporters are just serial liars trying to pull another 'fast one' as Zionazis do to the poor and oppressed. All these images and video are nothing but lies.

LIES I tell you!!!

:eyes:

[Vinnie From Indy]

6. After reading many of your posts

one wonders why you have not advocated simply sinking all of these ships by the Israeli navy and killing all of those on board. Obviously you believe that the flotilla was nothing more than terrorists disguised as "humanitarians" and your position has been that is was vital for Israel to protect itself against these people. So, why not just shell the ships into oblivion and wait for the next batch of ships?

In short, it is exactly positions like yours that will make this whole affair much worse for the world and especially for Israel.

[shira]

7. Hmmm, that's not what I believe at all. Here's a question for you, however.

Those videos showing certain individuals from the flotilla chanting 'death to jews', preparing for and then beating the crap out of IDF soldiers....

Are those individuals peaceful humanitarians or warmongers?

[azurnoir]

42. no No NO that's not the way of Hasbara

here is a 2009 copy of the Hasbara handbook it's an interesting read

Here is a PDF copy of the Israel Projectsr 2009 handbook with a snip of it's contents it's quite a read

The Israel Project�s 2009
GLOBAL LANGUAGE
DICTIONARY


4) There is NEVER, EVER, any justification for the deliberate slaughter of innocent
women and children. NEVER. The primary Palestinian public relations goal is to
demonstrate that the so-called �hopelessness of the oppressed Palestinians� is what
causes them to go out and kill children. This must be challenged immediately,
aggressively, and directly.

�We may disagree about politics and we may disagree about economics. But
there is one fundamental principle that all peoples from all parts of the globe will
agree on: civilized people do not target innocent women and children for death.�
5) Don�t pretend that Israel is without mistakes or fault. It�s not true and no one
believes it. Pretending Israel is free from errors does not pass the smell test. It will only
make your listeners question the veracity of everything else you say. Admitting that
Israel has and continues to make mistakes does not undermine the overall justice of
Israel�s goals: peace and security and a better quality of life for BOTH sides.
Use humility. �I know that in trying to defend its children and citizens from terrorists
that Israel has accidentally hurt innocent people. I know it, and I�m sorry for it. But
what can Israel do to defend itself? If America had given up land for peace � and that
land had been used for launching rockets at America, what would America do? Israel
was attacked with thousands of rockets from Iran-backed Palestinian terrorists in Gaza.
What should Israel have done to protect her children? �

http://australiansforpalestine.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ...

[Chulanowa]

3. Paintball guns?

Paintball guns shoot live ammo now?

You must be one hardcore paintballer, man.

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. The column is dead on and hopefully the Israeli people

will demand better from their leaders. Isolating the country from former allies and the rest of the world is FAR more damaging for the future prospects of Israel than anything these boats could carry. The right-wing govt. of Netanyahu fucked up in huge way with this attack. Rethinking the GAza policy is essential to move away from war and toward peace. Let's hope this incident is the start of a real push for positive change in the region. The absolute worst position would be for the Netanyahu people to continue to provoke the world by killing more people on humanitarian missions.

[shira]

13. So you believe 'peace' will result from lifting the blockade, which will empower Hamas...

...and also make Gaza yet another Iranian satellite, a Taliban type theocracy (not exactly the same but pretty damned bad) armed to the teeth like Hezbollah in Lebanon?

That would be a good thing? Iran to the immediate north and west of Israel?

You think granting legitimacy to Hamas' illegal coup of 2007 and recognizing them as the authoritarian leaders of the Palestinians there is good?

[LeftishBrit]

8. Good article

[enough]

10. +1 (nt)

[demoleft]

11. "15:28 Hundreds demonstrate in solidarity with Flotilla activists near Highway 443 (Army Radio)"

june 4, update from haaretz.

ciao you there :)

[Tripmann]

9. An excellent article

Only a nutjob would think that the current status quo should be maintained in the name of the defence of israel.

[shira]

12. Since you're for lifting the blockade....

...then you need to realize what that entails:

1. Another Iranian satellite armed to the teeth (like Hezbollah) but now in Gaza. Meaning, when they attack Israel again with nastier weapons - and we all know they eventually will - OCL will look tame in comparison. Numbers of dead on both sides will significantly exceed OCL.

2. Legitimacy for Hamas' illegal siege of Gaza (the 2007 coup) and recognition that they are now the unelected rulers of Gaza. BTW, if you don't get what I'm saying it's not like a majority win in congress allows them dictatorial/military rule. As a result of lifting the blockade theocracy and sharia law will be the norm with zero human rights for Palestinians in Gaza.

3. Absolutely no way Gaza agrees to any peace deal with Israel in the forseeable future. Maybe the W.Bank with Fatah in charge (a 1% chance, if that) but 0% chance Hamas agrees to anything. The peace process can only continue with Fatah.


This is obviously what you prefer to the blockade, right?

[Tripmann]

14. My issue with the blockade is the economic aspect

The fact that innocent women and children in gaza are being collectively punished.

Are you one of those people that maintains theres no humanitarian crisis in gaza?

[shira]

15. So can I take it you're not really worried about the other things mentioned in my last post to you?

As to whether there's a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, judge for yourself...
http://israelseen.com/2010/05/27/free-gaza-fancy-restaurants-olympic-size-swim-pools-what-the-media-won%e2%80%99t-report-about-gaza/

A Dutch Report says there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza...
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/06/dutch_report_no_food_crisis_in.html

You think all that is bullshit? If so, why?

There is a real humanitarian crisis (based on a blockade) in south Yemen that your pretend humanitarian activists either don't know or care about....
http://www.dubaiforums.com/dubai-politics-talk/knew-about-yemen-blockade-right-t42141.html

[Tripmann]

16. Every aid organisation on the planet says there is a crisis in Gaza

Are you denying this?

[shira]

17. Answer my questions first. Take your time. (nt)

[Tripmann]

19. so theres no humanitarian crisis?

[shira]

20. FAIL. This isn't an inquisition. Answer me and I'll answer you. (nt)

[Tripmann]

22. Post one question you want me to answer, then you can answer me.

[shira]

23. Please answer the title of post #15

[Tripmann]

24. Thats not asking me one question. Ask me one question if you want an answer.

[shira]

25. okay, here's your one question. Once Hamas is recognized as the rulers of Gaza...

....they will have their own Taliban-like state, supported by the Iranian theocracy.

You're okay with Gazans living in such conditions once the blockade is lifted?

We're talking worse human rights conditions than under Fatah.

And you're okay with that?

[Tripmann]

27. Thats not a question

Its one of your little soapbox statements followed by a 'are you ok with my hypothesis happening'?

Bollocks

As usual.

Try it on the newbies or ask a real question. You're embarrasing yourself as usual.

[shira]

28. Okay, a different question before I answer you....

The folks who attempted to murder IDF soldiers on video and who earlier invoked the killing of all Jews....

Humanitarian peace activists or raging antisemitic Jew hating thugs?

[Tripmann]

30. There is no evidence that they attempting to do anything other than repel the act of piracy

And there is no evidence that the people on the video chanting were the people in the minute long clip of the whole operation spoonfed to the world media.

This is why nobody takes you serious and why you have had to clutch at your wildest straws yet shira. All it takes is for somebody to actually read what you post and examine your 'evidence' to see that you actually bring nothing to the debate table.

Any real questions?

[shira]

31. FAIL. It's disgusting that you refuse to condemn openly hostile antisemites.

There's no point continuing with you.

[Tripmann]

33. When you plant 2 debatable points in a single sentence

and frame it as a question. You're the one failing.

FFS you can't even ask a single sentence question without peppering it with propaganda.

[shira]

34. OMG it was a simple question. Those invoking death to Jews, peace activists or raging Jew haters?

[Tripmann]

35. Those chanting in videos, same people from clip repelling IDF?

There was 5-600 people on board after all.

And WHERE IS the rest of the footage?

[shira]

36. Just the people in the video on Al Jazeera. Here's MEMRI with the Arabic subtitles, etc..

http://www.memri.org/flotilla/

No more obfuscation.

[Tripmann]

52. So you are claiming it was the same people chanting who attacked the IDF?

[shira]

53. That's besides the point. Answer the question.

[Tripmann]

54. No its not, its exactly the point

You gave me a loaded question and managed to squeeze two pieces of information into it that you have no evidence for. I have called you on it, and as usual you can't back it up.

Its actually quite impressive to see you grow even more desperate over time.

[shira]

55. LOL...I'm asking you one simple question, you refuse to answer it, and you call me desperate?

Just focus on that one thing.....I've made this easy for you.

What's the problem?

ETA
To get you to answer - and so you'll have no excuse - I'll answer you again. No, I can't yet link every one of those antisemitic "death to Jews" trolls to the action on top of the boat against the IDF. But let's assume NONE of them participated - which isn't very likely . What this means is that in addition to the "peace activists" attacking the IDF there were also the trolls singing Intifada death-to-Jews songs. Makes one wonder how many pieces of shit went along for the ride alongside actual humanitarians, doesn't it?

Now answer me, please.

[Tripmann]

57. Can you reframe the question please so it doesn't contain disputable phrases.

Lets see if you can get from one end of a questions sentence to the other without inserting your personal opinion.

[shira]

58. Unbelievable. The people singing songs invoking death to Jews....

...how exactly do you classify those folks?

Once you're done with that, same question WRT the folks from the video preparing hours in advance to do battle with the IDF.

[Tripmann]

59. Where are they chanting or invoking 'death to jews'?

I see them singing Remember Khaibar oh jews, the army of Mohammed will return'

Which youtube audio plugin are you using, the one that lets you hear audio, or the one that lets you hear what you want to hear.


If you want me to answer a question about aid workers chanting 'death to jews' on the flotila, please provide us with a video clip from the flotilla where they are actually chanting 'death to jews'. It more honest.

So, is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

[shira]

60. Khaibar was the last Jewish town, not far from Mecca, destroyed by Muhammad in the 7th century

This war chant, which is a clear reference to killing Jews, was sung during the Intifada period.

Can you please answer me now, for about the 8th time?

:shrug:

And no, there's not a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Israel won't allow it, even though the Israel haters make the claim. Here's Gershon Baskin, who cannot possibly be confused for an anti-Palestinian, Israeli RightWinger:

Israel does allow “humanitarian goods” into Gaza via various crossings. There is no hunger there; Israel is very careful about not creating a humanitarian crisis. How is that done? The UN Food and Agriculture Organization has set 1,800 calories per person per day as the minimum amount of food necessary to prevent hunger. On that basis, the IDF has calculated how much food must enter Gaza every day based on the size of the population so that Israel fulfills its legal responsibilities as the occupier under the Geneva Conventions. In addition, Israel allows fresh foodstuffs to enter based on the surpluses that exist as a result of the strong agriculture lobby in Israel – Gaza is a significant market for Israeli agricultural products.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=177765

[Tripmann]

61. Where are they chanting "death to Jews"?

I sing Irish rebel songs from time to time in a bar filled with other Irish people. Am I 'invoking "death to the British"??

Can you not be honest and up front about anything shira?

[Tripmann]

62. Oh, and I love this....

You: "And no, there's not a humanitarian crisis in Gaza"

From a famous Jewish person on the subject........

Stewart added that regardless of your perspective on the situation in the Middle East, Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer's statement that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza "may be the stupidest f*cking thing anyone's ever said about the Middle East ever."

He added that if you really think that "your heart is so dead tourists flock there to float on their backs in it."


We'll file your comment away with the likes of holocaust and nakba denial filth.

[shira]

63. One of Israel's leading leftist pro-Palestinians just wrote this week no humanitarian crisis

But believe what you want and don't let facts confuse you.

Do a little research into Khaibar (which had zero to do with Israel) and consider that Jewish community was massacred. Then apply to today.

I know, I know....it's not antisemitic at all to you.

:eyes:

[Tripmann]

65. All everybody here needs to know shira

is that we are in the presence of somebody who can look at the piles of rubble and impoverished little children in gaza, and still support their beloved israels contention that there is no humanitarian crisis.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

64. How perverse...

"Israel does allow humanitarian goods into Gaza via various crossings. There is no hunger there; Israel is very careful about not creating a humanitarian crisis. How is that done? The UN Food and Agriculture Organization has set 1,800 calories per person per day as the minimum amount of food necessary to prevent hunger. On that basis, the IDF has calculated how much food must enter Gaza every day based on the size of the population so that Israel fulfills its legal responsibilities as the occupier under the Geneva Conventions. In addition, Israel allows fresh foodstuffs to enter based on the surpluses that exist as a result of the strong agriculture lobby in Israel Gaza is a significant market for Israeli agricultural products."

Well, that assumes that the food imports are distributed perfectly equally. And 1800 calories, for the average sedentary 50th percentile male, is just enough food to maintain weight. It certainly fits in with Israel's stated policy of putting the Palestinians on a diet, but not letting them die of hunger.

[shira]

66. I agree there's no defense for that, but it's not a humanitarian crisis.

[Tripmann]

68. A comment from a famous jewish person on whether or not there is a crisis

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/jon-stewart-on-israeli-flotilla-raid-nobody-puts-bubby-in-a-corner-video-1.php

Stewart added that regardless of your perspective on the situation in the Middle East, Fox News contributor Charles Krauthammer's statement that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza "may be the stupidest f*cking thing anyone's ever said about the Middle East ever."

He added that if you really think that "your heart is so dead tourists flock there to float on their backs in it."

[shira]

69. It's your right to trust a Jewish comedian over a leftist Jewish Israeli pro-peace activist

[Tripmann]

70. But wait a second shira

You're the first person to dishonestly say that I dismiss peoples opinions because they're jewish (borderline accusation of anti-semitism right there).

Then I post an opinion from a jewish person and you say I'm "trusting a Jewish comedian over a leftist Jewish Israeli pro-peace activist"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Guess he's just not your kind of jew.

[B Whale]

56. i've just watched that video twice and i can't

see anyone chanting 'death to jews' ...is it the first people in the first minute or so of the clip...talking of mohammed's armies etc?

Am i missing something? cos i'm interested if there definitely was people chanting what you claim.

thanks in advance

[parkia00]

18. Try this for a change....

Do you know why Israel has everyone staring at it? Even before the debacle with the flotilla. It's because Israel is now holding the ball after the war with Gaza. Israel's insistence of the blockade has given Hamas a trump card to point at Israel and say "Look the war has stopped and Israel still blockades Gaza. Israel has not kept up their side of the bargain. People are starving. We are fighting for our lives against a ruthless enemy. Hams is a legitimate resistance movement etc.. etc..."

SO what can Israel do? Take Hamas's trump card away. Throw the ball back to them so world attention is now focused on Hamas and their reaction. How do you do that? You get rid of the blockade. Let the Gazans import what ever they want even if it means weapons since weapons re being smuggled in anyhow. Although I would draw the line at Scud missile parts. How can this be done? Create processing centers from cross border points in Egypt and Southern Israel. Have these processing centers run by a neutral party. Not Hamas nor IDF so accusations of bias can be limited. Let the Gazans import what ever they want except weapons and items obviously meant for nefarious purposes. Preventing items like cumin, coriander, bananas, potato chips, paper and chicks only make Israel look stupid like right now. If Israel does this they now can say that we have done our side of the deal. Now people will look to Hamas for their reaction.

If after all this is done and the end is more rockets and Hamas attacks, Israel can truly say to the world that they have indeed done all they promised but look what Hamas is doing right now. They are attacking us! If war breaks out again, Israel is in a FAR better position in terms of world opinion to defend themselves.

Also in the long term, having open borders will actually weaken Hamas. The blockade actually gives Hamas the excuse as a resistance movement. THey can recruit for the fight citing Israeli agression. The blockade has made two viable professions in Gaza to flourish. The profession to smuggle and the profession to fight Israel. Either way, not good for Israel. If there is no seige and the economy in Gaza is flourishing, Hamas recruitment by Hamas will fall because people will have a host of other things to do. If Hamas through it's actions tries to jeopardize the prosperity of the Gazans by attacks on Israel, they will find themselves on very shaky ground when it comes to support from abroad and more importantly from people in Gaza.

Try that. Yes it's risky but at least it's something new. Rather than doing the same thing the umpteenth time and getting the same failed result.

[shira]

21. Now you're talking....

Finally, a reasonable response but I still disagree.

Israel relying on others to do their weapons checking for them doesn't work (see UNIFIL in Lebanon where Hezbollah is armed 10x better than in 2006).

Also, Goldstone makes Israel defending itself - whether from Lebanese rockets or Gazan - next to impossible.

bbl...

[Recursion]

26. Does Hamas have the right to defend itself?

I'm curious what you think about that, as a general question.

[shira]

29. Hamas isn't defending themselves. No more than the Taliban does whatever they do.

[Recursion]

32. I didn't ask "is Hamas acting in self-defense?"

I asked "Does Hamas have the right to defend itself?"

[shira]

37. They don't defend themselves. They're an Islamist supremacist movement.

They're thugs.

[Recursion]

38. Again, I didn't ask "Is Hamas defending itself?"

I asked, "Does Hamas have a right to self-defense?" Morally, is that a universal and inalienable right, or has Hamas (and by extension, the people that elected them) abdicated it?

[shira]

39. Is Hamas defending itself when.......it fires off rockets, kidnaps soldiers, sends suicide bombers?

That's not defending themselves.

Who are they defending themselves from, and why?

[Recursion]

40. I did not ask, "Is Hamas acting in self-defense?"

I asked, does Hamas, as a moral matter, have the right to self defense. Examples of answers to this question are:

Yes

No

I'm not sure

[shira]

41. I pick "I'm not sure". Now what's your point?

[Recursion]

43. I wasn't leading anywhere with that question

It's just an interesting question to me. For the record, I think some of Hamas's operations have been defensive and some offensive, and that they do have the right to defend themselves.

[shira]

44. What's one example of an operation from Hamas that's been defensive?

[Recursion]

46. Well, shooting back at the IDF during OCL, for instance

Building bunkers and tunnels against Israeli missiles

Resisting the coup attempt by Fatah

Operating smuggling tunnels to get them the equipment to do those things

The unguided Qassam attacks are absolutely wrong morally, and are operationaly disastrous, and must stop. Though again they did a fairly good job at stopping the main rocketeers, Islamic Jihad. But some elements of Hamas still fire them, and Hamas needs to stop them. If they could guide them well enough to only strike IDF targets, things would be different. But if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses a-hoppin'.

I'm iffy on Shalit. In general, taking POWs is a better option than killing, both from a moral standpoint and operationally as sources of intelligence, but they should work out a repatriation exchange ASAP, and they need to lower their exchange demands to something reasonable. But in general taking prisoners to the end of effecting an exchange isn't "wrong" in itself.

[shira]

48. Shooting back during OCL, a war they started called "Operation Oil Stain" is self-defense?

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=207221

Self defense?

Really?

[Recursion]

49. Yes, absolutely

Shooting back during OCL was self-defense. I'm not sure how one could argue otherwise. Not that they did much of that; Hamas mostly stayed in their tunnels.

[shira]

50. It's a war they started! How is that self-defense?

[Recursion]

51. Self-defense is a tactical, not strategic question

If an IDF soldier is approaching me with intent to kill, killing him is self-defense. It doesn't matter if my actions, or my boss's actions, or my boss's failure to stop Islamic Jihad's actions, are the political/strategic reason he is there.

[Madam Mossfern]

45. Everyone has a right to defend themselves

but has to be careful that in that defense, they don't become the aggressor.

It's all quite simple.
Israel ceases embargo and barriers when Hamas and other Palestinians in the area acknowledge the legitimacy of the sovereign state of Israel. It is a very simple starting point. I would expect rocket attacks to cease as well as Israeli settlement building. Those in existence eventually need to be evacuated and either given to Palestinians or demolished.

[Recursion]

47. Wouldn't that be nice?

I would expect rocket attacks to cease as well as Israeli settlement building.

If both would stop for 5 years a lot of this problem would go away. But neither side trusts the other enough to go first. And frankly, the Israeli government can't stop the settlements' expansion, and Hamas can't stop all the rocket attacks. Both Israel and Hamas did take steps limiting those aggravating factors, but neither believed the other was acting in good faith when the results were not 100%.