Hamas destroys dozens of homes in southern Gaza

[cali]

By RIZEK ABDEL JAWAD
Associated Press Writer

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Hamas police wielding clubs beat and pushed residents out of dozens of homes in the southern Gaza town of Rafah on Sunday before knocking the buildings down with bulldozers, residents said.

Gaza's militant Hamas rulers said the homes were built illegally on government land. Newly homeless residents were furious over Palestinians on bulldozers razing Palestinian homes.

For years, Palestinians have criticized Israel for destroying houses, mostly because they were built without permits issued by the military. Now, Rafah residents complained, their own government, run by the Islamic militant Hamas that seized power in Gaza in July 2007, has done the same.

"They promised reform and change - instead they've destroyed our homes," shouted Miasar Gan, a 54-year-old woman. Gan said she and her husband had nowhere else to go.

"I found my mattress, and that's where I'll be sitting," she said, standing next to the concrete chunks - all that was left of her house.

<snip>

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_PALESTINIANS_HOME_DEMOLITIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-05-16-14-59-26

[LeftishBrit]

1. Disgusting

[Recursion]

2. Ack. I wish I didn't remember predicting this.

But, yeah.

[proteus_lives]

3. Where's the usual gang ranting about the evil oppressors destroying people's homes?

Oh, right. They only care when Israelis do it.

[demosincebirth]

4. there will be none.

[Ken Burch]

6. Bullshit. We do condemn this.

It's just that this doesn't vindicate what the IDF does.

And it doesn't prove that Israel is morally superior.

It's just another bad government doing another bad thing.

[proteus_lives]

8. Who said it did?

Heh, keep pretending that that DU doesn't have a anti-Israel bent.

[Ken Burch]

18. It doesn't.

It just has people who don't accept that everything the Israeli government does has to be exempt from any criticism or discussion. And people who know that the idea that any opposition to the Occupation equals antisemitism is a blatant lie.

Why can't you accept that Israel is a state like any other, and must be just as accountable as any other?

[Tripmann]

10. Eh, proteus_lives

18 MINUTES after the story was posted on a sunday night, you submit a 'wheres the equivalent outrage' post.

Give people a chance will ya.

[Ken Burch]

20. Why would he?

All Proteus is about is labeling anyone who disagrees with him about the I/P situation as an antisemite.

[proteus_lives]

21. Link the post where I called you an antisemite.

Please.

[Dick Dastardly]

23. The false claim of being called an anti semite, the claim of being called an anti semite for any

criticism of Israel or pre emptively saying they will be called an anti semite is a common tactic of those who cant make a factual argument and or just repeat baseless talking points. Its far more common than actual accusations of anti semitism.

[Tripmann]

24. Heres the facts proteus_lives

You have stated that DU is anti-israel.

You have stated the following as your reasoning:

"The same complaints, accusations and lies that float around on this website are heirs of the same that were printed on pamphlets back in the day."

Then you state, when asked about these pamphlets.....

"I'm talking about the ones That are anti-semitic under the guise of being anti-Israel."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x301056#312803

So, if you accuse DUs users of 'complaints, accusations and lies' thats really 'anti-semitism under the guise of being anti-israel', then you are by definition accusing people on this site of anti-semitism.

[Dick Dastardly]

35. This is just more of the usual inventing and twisting of facts that is piled on top of the same.

Its just one of the well worn tactics by many in the anti Israel crowd to divert from dealing in real facts and supported arguments. In 18 Ken falsly alludes that there is no tolerance to criticism of Israel and that any opposition is considered anti semetic by supporters of Israel. In 20 Ken states directly that Proteus labels anyone who disagrees with him and anti semite. Ken provides no support when Proteus asks for proof he called Ken an anti semite. Proteus states he believes there is an anti Israel bend on DU (which I also beleive ), rather than deal with the actual claim or even ask proteus to support what he said it goes into non sequitor and hyperbole mode falsley turning into that Proteus and others label anyone who criticizes or disagrees with them an anti semite.

Since I agree with Proteus that DU has an anti Israel bend, can you show me where I have called you and any others an anti semite for disagreeing with me or for criticizing Israel?



Anyway you have shown nothing where he states that disagreement with him is anti semetic or that any criticism of Israel is anti semetic. As you yourself has even shown from your link he said
"I'm talking about the ones That are anti-semitic under the guise of being anti-Israel."

As much as you tried to twist what he said on that thread, which he called you on, there is nothing that supports your assertions.

Since you couldnt twist what he said in that thread bcause he called you on it, you move it here and use non sequitors to twist it to fit your claim.

"So, if you accuse DUs users of 'complaints, accusations and lies' thats really 'anti-semitism under the guise of being anti-israel', then you are by definition accusing people on this site of anti-semitism."

There most certainly is anti semitism expressed on this site and those who cloak their anti semitism under the guise of just being with the anti Israel factions, but that does not translate into disagreement is anti semitism. Piling more falsehoods on top of another does not make anything true, it only makes it more false.

[demosincebirth]

12. They are here to condemn hamas' actions, but with the usual "but."

[azurnoir]

25. They who? define they

however for Hamas to destroy peoples homes especially when there is little to no means of rebuilding those homes is disgusting and wrong

[Ken Burch]

5. They're wrong and stupid to do that.

It does NOT, however, invalidate the criticisms made against Israel for doing those things, as I think you would like it to do.

Why do you even bother starting threads like this? You're a better person than to waste your time posting things for the sole purpose of letting Netanyahu and the IDF off the hook.

Israel is going to be right-wing and ugly forever now. It will never elect a progressive government again and will never grow. The brave people there who do defend human rights will always be mocked by the pro-hatred majority.

Why waste your time with a failed and now-worthless country?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

19. I don't spit on anybody or wear a mask.

If Israel is to survive, it has to give up the idea that it is entitled to determine the size of the Palestinian state and that it has the right to punish all Palestinians for the actions of some.

And I admire those Israelis who reject the prevailing hate-based political consensus in their country. If all Israelis had the values of people like Amira Hass and Gideon Levy, peace would be possible and the state would be worthy of the loyalty of people like you.

At the moment, acting like it does, is it worthy of ANYONE's support?

It's not like the world's Jewish population needs it anymore.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

29. The statement harms no one. It's sympathetic to the world's Jewish communities

Those communities aren't being well served by the behavior of the IDF and the government that deploys it. That is simply a legitimate political comment.

You know perfectly well I'm not an antisemite. I'm not even necessarily anti-Zionist(although if the settlements remain, it will be almost impossible to continue to argue for a two state solution since there won't be enough land to build it on). It's silly to imply that you have to approve of Israeli policy to be philosemitic. People who are critical of the Occupation are the ones who would have been the earliest anti-Nazis, while those who defend it(among gentiles, of course)are the ones who would have continued business deals with the Third Reich for as long as possible.

The state is not a very good place for those it CLAIMS to represent. Most of them don't live there and don't want to. It doesn't protect them. And it doesn't honor their values. Mostly, it is a betrayal of what the world's Jewish communities stand for. And for this reason, the state and its current political culture and military culture saddens me. Can you find anything good about the Occupation and the Iron Fist policies? They haven't weakened Hamas(they've only strengthened it and those worse than it) and they haven't stopped what the IDF calls "terrorism".

The bare minimum that the Israelis must do is to let the Palestinians have all the West Bank and Gaza, to end the collective punishment, and to admit that Palestinian Arabs have a connection to the land that is as deep as any Zionists. Why is this so hard to understand? And how could anything worse come of this than what results from the existing policies? Certainly, it's a suicidal mistake to try to make the Palestinian state as small as possible, since trying to do that can ONLY provoke the more extreme elements of Palestinian society. And it's an even greater mistake if the Israeli government is secretly still trying to prevent ANY Palestinian state from being established at all(or worse, still, still nurturing the insulting "Jordan is Palestine" fantasy).

Israel needs to become a progressive, noncolonial country. It needs to end all discrmination against the Arab minority within it and all attempts to deny Palestinian self-determination without.
At the moment, it looks like the government and the official opposition have no interest in doing these things, and the public there seems to back the anti-peace policies the government and opposition support instead. Can you blame a person for feeling that there's not much reason to see hope in this place?

[Dick Dastardly]

36. I Spit on Your Grave

Have you seen this movie? :evilgrin:

[LeftishBrit]

9. House demolitions are wrong and wicked, whoever does them.

Nothing that Hamas does vindicates Israel (or vice versa).

However, to say 'Israel is going to be right-wing and ugly forever now. It will never elect a progressive government again and will never grow'

is denying the possibility of change.

What if everyone had said, when Bush and Cheney ruled America: 'America is going to be right-wing and ugly forever now. It will never elect a progressive government again and will never grow'?

We should be seeking and demanding change, not simply giving up on any country.

[shira]

17. You're being too kind...his statement was hatefilled

Imagine if his comment was aimed at a neighboring country in that region.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Actually I thought he was making a pretty nasty statement on the Palestinians

"Why waste your time with a failed and now-worthless country?" Israel is clearly not a failed state.

[shira]

16. "Why...bother starting threads like this....for the sole purpose of letting Netanyahu..off the hook"

:eyes:

Pathetic.

[azurnoir]

26. are you frustrated?

your card got called before you could put it into play? What I have noted is all the faux outrage over supposed insults to Israel by the ProIsrael side with not one word of sympathy towards the Palestinians that are now homeless due to the actions of Hamas, is it that you don't feel any?

[shira]

34. Mr. Burch believes in 100% criticism of Israel and 0% criticism of Hamas. Anything that takes away

...focus from Israel is bad.

Hamas should be left alone to do whatever they wish to their victims.

Israel deserves all the focus. Who cares if Hamas is making 100's of Palestinians homeless?

Looks like Mr. Burch would fit well into the UN.

=======

ps,
Asserting that the person who posted the OP only did so to "let Netanyahu off the hook" is a strawman. Logical fallacies are about all Mr. Burch has in his arsenal.

[LeftishBrit]

27. And you are a better person than to engage in this sort of 'whoever isn't with us is with the

terrorists/ with Netanyahu' rhetoric.

It's perfectly possible to be vocally against BOTH Netanyahu/Likud AND Hamas. In fact, it seems to me the most logical position for progressives.

[Ken Burch]

30. And that's the position that I take-I don't SUPPORT either of those political entities

The problem with this thread is that its premise is basically "you HAVE to condemn this INSTANTLY or you're pro-Hamas".

I don't know of anybody who posts here that could honestly be called pro-Hamas.

And no, arguing that Israel should negotiate with Hamas does not equate with being "pro-Hamas". It simply equates with being pro-reality. The reality is that not negotiating with Hamas will NEVER result in Palestinians turning to a different leadership.

I think we've established that nobody here defends what Hamas did in this case. It's just that it was wrong to DEMAND that people make a show of denouncing Hamas in this instance and doing it on command, especially when few people here had heard of this incident.

[LeftishBrit]

32. I don't agree that this is the purpose of the thread...

I think it's just letting people know what's going on; and does not necessarily require a response. I don't think Hamas' actions excuse Israel in the least. But I also think that they are a nasty far-RW government who are regularly betraying their own people.

I certainly hope no one here defends this sort of evictions of Palestinians, and house demolitions, whether done by Israel or their own leadership.

[Ken Burch]

33. No one should defend such evictions.

And perhaps I'm a bit oversensitive about the motives behind the creation of some I/P threads.

[cali]

38. yikers. your post is, well, nutso.

this is a forum dedicated to news and discussion of I/P. This is news. That it's news you don't like, Ken, doesn't stop it from being news. Most of the stories I post are critical of Israel, and that's because Israel is the occupier, but there are other important stories, and I damned well post those too.

My purpose for posting this had nothing whatsofuckingever to do with excusing Netanyahu. It's a reflection of your psyche that you should jump to that sicko conclusion.

And how is my post "wasting .. time with a failed and now worthless country", Ken? The post is about Hamas and its actions.

Pitiful post, Ken. Just pitiful.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. So its OK for Hamas, but not OK when similarly illegally built homes are removed in J'lem

Your position is quite clear

[Tripmann]

15. Where did anybody post

that its OK for hamas to behave like this?

[LeftishBrit]

31. Not OK for either

[Ken Burch]

37. Not ok in either case

And the homes being destroyed in East Jerusalem were NOT illegally built, and harmed no one.