BDS is a long term project with radically transformative potential

[ProgressiveMuslim]

POSTER's NOTE: This is a fabulous piece which explains the moral thinking behind the BDS position. The author, Ahmed Moor and Jerry Haber, have had a wonderful dialogue via essay on Phil Weiss's MONDOWEISS blog. This is in fact the fourth installment of that dialogue. I've included links to the first 3 components below.

Because the author's POV is so articulately laid out, and because explanations such as this are never printed in the MSM, I beg the mod's permission to allow this valuable piece to remain.

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http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/bds-is-a-long-term-project-with-radically-transformative-potential.html#comments

by Ahmed Moor on April 22, 2010 ·

I’m grateful to Jerry Haber for taking the time to engage me on the role of ‘liberal’ Zionists in the BDS movement. Sometimes my tone borders on truculence, which is really just impatience. I’m impatient for ‘liberal’ Zionists to discard the ‘Zionist’ and become regular liberals like the rest of us. I think these are people who know better, but cling to notions of racial dominance in an ill-got geographical space for a variety of reasons.

I’ve written before I don’t really believe that liberal Zionists exist. Very quickly; liberal means we’re all equal, and Zionist means we’re not. It’s a contradiction in terms that I believe is irreconcilable. For instance, Avigdor Lieberman would like to see an end to the occupation. Is Avigdor Lieberman a liberal Zionist? Why not? Lieberman talks about ‘population swaps’ whose intent is to preserve the Jewish character of the state. Is that what liberal Zionists find so odious? How do liberal Zionists seek to preserve the Jewish character of the Jewish state if not through supranational gerrymandering or more ethnic cleansing? This is not a rhetorical question. How do liberal Zionists intend to hold on to their Jewish state?

Haber writes that “civil equality of Palestinian Arabs in Israel may entail the end of the Jewish state, but many people, Jews and Palestinians, don’t think that it does.” I’d like to respectfully correct the misconceptions of any Jews and Palestinians who do not think that granting civil equality to Palestinian Israelis means the end of the Jewish state. Today, in the Jewish democracy, 1 out of every 5 citizens is not Jewish. In a truly equal society, any one of those people can hold a senior governmental post. What happens to ‘Jewish self-determination’ when the prime minister of Israel is a woman named Diana Buttu? In America, the proportion of black to non-black people is less than that of Palestinian Israeli to Jewish Israeli. Yet, white Americans and others elected a black man. That’s because the principle of ‘white self-determination’ is a discredited orthodoxy in American civil discourse. That’s because it’s racist.

Furthermore, Haber writes that “Palestinian Israeli leaders… do not oppose the existence of a Jewish ethnic state.” I take issue with this characterization of Palestinian Israeli leaders’ views. Azmi Bishara has repeatedly called for an Israel that does not discriminate or privilege one race over another. MK Ahmed Tibi has also described the Jewish state as “democratic towards Jews, and Jewish towards Arabs.”

But I’m avoiding the meat of the thing; do I want so-called liberal Zionists to join in our BDS efforts? If not, why? The BDS movement seeks to enact “non-violent punitive measures” to induce Israel into:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;

2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

Ok fine. So BDS does mean the end of the Jewish state. But can’t I see the value in reaching across the aisle, so to speak? The movement may be burgeoning but remains too small. Why shouldn’t we indulge in ad hoc partnerships to get things done? Richard Silverstein, Richard Goldstone, and many other self-proclaimed Zionists have done an immeasurably positive amount of work in skinning the Zionist cat (That’s a deliberate analogy. I don’t kid myself about how difficult it must be for a Jewish person to criticize the Zionist state), shouldn’t they be asked to join the BDS movement?

To be sure, I’m not dogmatically against cooperating with people whose views I find objectionable. If it came down to it, I’d be happy to work with the racist up the street to get the city to fix a neighborhood pothole.

Likewise, I’d work with a liberal Zionist to break the Zionist siege of Gaza, whose people really have no use for protracted ideological jockeying. There is an immediacy there that demands action from any quarter.

But I view the BDS movement as a long-term project with radically transformative potential. I believe that the ultimate success of the BDS movement will be coincident with the ultimate success of the Palestinian enfranchisement and equal rights movement. In other words, BDS is not another step on the way to the final showdown; BDS is The Final Showdown...

read on:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=124

Jerry Haber's first post on the subject:
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2010/04/13-reasons-why-liberal-zionists-should.html

Ahmed Moor's first response:
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/what-does-it-take-to-get-liberal-zionists-on-board-with-bds-and-is-it-worth-it.html

Haber's response to Moor:
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/haber-does-bds-leadership-seek-ideological-purity-or-a-coalition.html

[shira]

1. Wow! BDS resulting in full RoR, an end to the Jewish State, & lots of dead folk. Where do I sign up?

Pathetic.

:eyes:

1. Hey PM, what's moral about this warmongering position? And you wonder why this pathetic anti-Palestinian position can't be found in the MSM?

2. This response to Haber, as well as to the "post-Zionists, anti-Zionists, non-Zionists, and/or known leftists", shows that no one sane and rational (from Haber to Gideon Levy or from Jimmy Carter to Noam Chomsky) can possibly cut a peace deal with anyone coming from such a position.

Very sobering. This is why Abbas just rejected a 60% deal on the WB with temporary borders. With this mindset, there won't be peace for at least another 100 years when there will be at least 8 million Palestinians wasting their lives in refugee camps.

:puke:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Concur (n/t)

[Vegasaurus]

4. Shocking, isn't it?

There isn't even an effort to pretend anymore.

As the article states, and this poster has affirmed many times:

"Ok fine. So BDS does mean the end of the Jewish state."

At least we are all clear on the views of these "pro-Palestinians".

Let's not pretend that peace is or was ever a goal.

It's always been "the end of the Jewish state".

[shira]

9. Which means all this talk about human rights is bullshit and just a means to an end

Reminds me of this...

What more can we say? That – though I would disagree myself with almost all of the judgments – out of humanistic sympathy for Palestinian aspirations and suffering through all these years of conflict, Mondoweiss advocates for greater Israeli compassion in its ascendency? That it seeks more humane treatment toward Palestinians in administration of road-blocks and check points? That it seeks, even, a unilateral end to all of the partial and periodic “occupations” prior to any other agreement on disputed issues? That it argues for the constructive role that might be played by the complete opening of the Gaza borders? That it believes the recent Gaza conflict (and probably, then, by reasoned extension, every other Israeli military action over the decades that was not an immediate defensive response to a conventional attack by a national army) was misguided and excessive? That it believes the West Bank settlements – just as the Gaza settlements, now unilaterally dismantled – are illegal and immoral and need to be removed as a basis for a just settlement, leading to the willingness of an empowered Palestinian authority to agree, for the first time, to exchange land for peace and to recognize a Jewish state of Israel while gaining a Palestinian state?

Can we say all this of Mondoweiss? No, we cannot. Not really. For while Mondoweiss may at times espouse these positions, none of them are the end it seeks to serve, not even the ultimate end of a just settlement and a lasting peace. In conflict, a just settlement recognizes the legitimate desires of all parties, not the moral claim of only one. But the active agents behind Mondoweiss do not believe that Israel, or the Jewish people in relation to Israel, has just desires. Horowitz does not support the existence of a Jewish state. Blumenthal, like him, believes that Zionism (Jewish nationalism) – in apparent contradistinction to any other nationalism – is inherently racist. Weiss, a deeply anti-Semitic work in progress, in his haziest, most narcotic fantasy of peace, envisions as its ecstatic end not the peace, but the end of Israel.

The cause of Mondoweiss is not a settlement of grievances. It is not peace. The cause Mondoweiss serves, the position it espouses, is that of the most unreconstructed, unrelenting, and agonistic of all Palestinian positions and causes – and end to a Jewish state in its ancient homeland. It is a position, coming from Mondoweiss no less than from any Palestinian – or Israeli in reverse – that will further not the interests of peace, but the continuation of conflict, and of the suffering of all, especially Palestinian suffering, over which Mondoweiss hearts purport to bleed.

This is the malice of Mondoweiss.

http://sadredearth.com/the-malice-of-mondoweiss/

[Ken Burch]

42. They could treat Israeli Arabs as equals and still BE a "Jewish state"

And they would still be a "Jewish state" if they ended the damn Occupation. Neither policy makes Israel any safer, and you know it.

And it's time to stop acting as if Arabs are Nazis. Only Europeans tried to create a Judenrein world.

[proteus_lives]

You hit it out the park.

[proteus_lives]

49. .

[shira]

3. What's with this Jerry Haber, by the way?

Did he delude himself into thinking that the primary goal of the BDS movement was not to ultimately destroy Israel....

...or does he actually know and he's trying to rally gullible people by falsely portraying BDS as a benign peaceful movement?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. It's shocking that you equate racist apartheid with "Israel." That's pretty sad, shira.

Israel is more than the boot it keeps on the necks of millions, isn't it?

[shira]

7. Can you be more clear? I have no idea what you're asking.

Do you agree with the author of the OP, and furthermore, do you see this as the majority Arab opinion on the situation?

[aranthus]

6. At least he's honest.

Perhaps more honest than some of those on DU who deny the truth of what he says. "Ok fine. So BDS does mean the end of the Jewish state." It's not a movement for peace, and never was. It's just another front in the war against Jewish self determination.

[shira]

8. You had it right all along regarding BDS leading to full RoR and the end of the Jewish state.

[Ken Burch]

43. Jewish self-determination has already been achieved.

The fight to create Israel has been won. Israel doesn't have to treat Palestinians and Israeli Arabs this way just to survive. There is no "existential threat". And there hasn't been since 1967.

Stop the Hasbara dreck already.

[aranthus]

44. Did you read the OP?

This is a very simple issue. The author of the piece maintains that BDS includes RoR, and that if successful, it means the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Either people who support BDS also support that position, or they ignore it out of ignorance, frustration, foolishness, naivete, or whatever. How is that Hasbara dreck?

[shira]

10. The author of the OP distinguishes between "liberal zionists" (who are racists) vs. pure liberals

He argues that pure liberals would welcome full RoR and equal rights.

What he fails to mention is the complete lack of purely liberal leaders in both the PLO and Hamas.

Where are these "purely liberal" leaders among the Palestinians now who will promise to protect all the basic civil/human rights that we liberal Westerners take for granted?

Essentially, he's arguing that via democratically equal means groups like Hamas and the PLO should come to power and rule as they wish according to majority rule. And if that means ruling via the Fatah or Hamas charters - promoting government that is irrational, anti-semitic, misogynist, homophobic, inquisitional, totalitarian, imperialist and genocidal - then that is ironically something that "purely liberal" people (well, at least the gullible) should embrace.

:eyes:

[whosinpower]

38. your jumping to conclusions

Where are the jewish leaders who will promise to protect all the basic civil/human rights within Israel, regardless of race, religion, or gender?

That is the sticky point. No amount of sliding the blame to the palistinians will change that. Israel cannot survive as a purely jewish state without disenfranchizing other groups who are not jewish. That is the crux of it all. Right of return, equal rights all endanger a purely jewish state.

It comes as no surprise that the next jump would be to attack those very principles and project that equal rights would equate to a government that is - by your own words - irrational, anti-semitic, misogynist, homophobic, inquisitional, totalitarian, imperialist and genocidal.

You've painted your self into a corner. A two state solution with a democratically elected palistinian side that supports equal rights would be irrational, anti-semitic, misogynist, homophobic, inquisitional, totalitarian, imperialist and genocidal. A one state solution would mean the destruction of Israel as a purely jewish state. How much longer shall we sit and wait...for what exactly?

The BDS movement gives ordinary citizens of the world a choice if they want it. These citizens may not have voice in government, but they do have a choice where to put their dollars. And, if that influences government - then I am all for it. Chances are, it will not, but that is the choice of those people.

It is a bit funny that you paint an equal rights government as being imperialistic - for it was grand imperialism that gave Israel the right to exist in the first place. I do not recall any attempts to discuss the matter with the people who were living there before Israel came into being. I do not recall any attempt to purchase the land at fair prices and allow the people to leave with their dignity and more importantly - BY THEIR CHOICE. What happened to the jews in the second world war was atrocious. How the world reacted - by turning back refugees fleeing Germany was beyond hideous. It was not fair by any measure. Nor was it fair to throw them into the middle east, give them a state name and have any expectations that the result would be peaceful.

The status quo cannot and should not stand. It is neither fair to the palistinians or the Israeli's.

[shira]

40. The Jewish state already protects basic civil/human rights of all those within Israel

It's not perfect and requires improvement like any other Western democracy, but it's not as bad as you portray it.

Don't believe me, fine...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=311073&mesg_id=311578

Try to explain that, okay?

[whosinpower]

45. What you are suggesting is...

That Arabs would rather stay in Israel, even with its inequalities rather than side with an ineffective and weak palistinian authority.

You may think this is in your favour because it equates the palistinian authority to being not as positive as the Israeli government. Think this through carefully. The evolution of what is to become of Israel grows clearer. The state cannot maintain its status quo of segregation, seperation, apartheid. There is no two state solution without a viable partner sitting across the table - and there is no viable partner. Because there is no partner - the apartheid will fail. And with that, so too go the dreams of a pure jewish state.

This is not the blame of the Israeli's or the palistinians. It is an inevitablity given the void of leadership on one side, and the disenfranchisement of a people from the other.

[shira]

46. Check out the 3rd part of that link and you'll see 80% of Israel's Arabs prefer Israel's govt

...over every other govt in the world, including the USA.

Don't you find that strange?

[whosinpower]

47. Not really

Given that this little snippet of land is beholden to other powers for resources - Israel has been utterly successful in garnering support - at least from the West.

Also, one has to take into account that there is now at least one generation that knows no alternative. I am not sure they are talking about THE government of Netanyahu, or the style and structure of the Israeli government. The dreams of a Palistine are fading. At every turn, there has been failure. Arafat failed, Abbas failed, Hamas fails. This is nothing to cheer about - for it means that a viable two state solution is impossible. Even Israeli Jews are coming to that conclusion from a recent poll I just read.

You may think this is good news, but long term it means the end of a jewish state. Without a viable partner to structure a doable two state solution, the growing concensus will be to find a way to grow a single state. Israel is already 2/3 the way there - it just has not been able to reconcile it given that it will have to give up some of its jewish character to accomodate the peoples who will become its citizenry.

If you don't believe me when I suggest it is already 2/3 the way there - you only have to reread your own poll with a different viewpoint.

[oberliner]

11. Refreshing honesty regarding the true nature of the BDS movement

The BDS movement is not about war crimes or the Goldstone report or the lifting the seige of Gaza or even ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel could embrace the Goldstone report, lift the seige of Gaza, withdraw every settlement from the West Bank, and the BDS movement would still call for continued boycotts, divestment, and sanctions against Israel.

Hopefully more of the leaders of this movement can be as up front about this as this person has been.

[shira]

12. + 1,000,000

[Violet_Crumble]

13. The guy who wrote that article isn't the BDS movement

Neither him nor you are spokesman for the movement and in yr case in particular don't get to label anyone who doesn't say what you want to hear as being a liar.

[shira]

14. The global BDS movement was founded by Omar Barghouti

He's a one-state advocate in favor of full RoR and an end to Israel...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x303935#304110

[Violet_Crumble]

15. The guy who wrote the article isn't the BDS movement.

If yr going to start replying to my posts again, at least read what yr replying to and try to address what was said...

[shira]

16. You're right, but Omar Barghouti is the BDS movement and he's for one state with full RoR

[Violet_Crumble]

18. And seeing Oberliner wasn't talking about him, it looks like yr off on yr own tangent n/t

[oberliner]

22. I would argue that Ahmed Moor and Omar Barghouti share the same position

Do you disagree? Do you think that Moor is voicing a position that is contrary to that of the movement's leadership?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. You can argue whatever you like. I was pointing out that the author isn't the BDS movement...

And knowing how particular you are, I thought I'd best correct you on it...

[oberliner]

28. Well no one person is any movement

Members (or leaders) of a moment can attempt to articulate the core positions of a movement they belong to. That certainly appears to be one of the things that this writer is doing here.

As his statements reflect similar statements made by the founder of the movement, I think he does a good job of presenting those core positions in a refreshingly honest way.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. And his opinion is his opinion...

You strongly implied that supporters of BDS who don't voice the same views as him are being dishonest.

[oberliner]

17. Would you agree that Omar Barghouti is a spokesman for the movement?

If so, I could provide statements from him that make the same point that Ahmed Moor makes with respect to the BDS movement and its goals.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. You weren't talking about him in yr post I replied to.

I was merely correcting an incorrect statement you made...

[oberliner]

20. Is the author of the piece not a leader in the BDS movement?

What that the incorrect statement I made or something else?

[Violet_Crumble]

21. He's not the BDS movement...

No more than you or Shira are the pro-Israel movement. And have you missed words out of yr sentence? It looks disjointed and quite clumsy.

[aranthus]

41. So what?

Of course he's not "the movement", which by definition is more than one person. So what? He's also obviously involved in the movement, and accurately describes the movement and its goals. Have you the words of someone authoritative who says that the movement means something else?

[oberliner]

24. As the poster of this OP, do you think Ahmed Moor accurately reflects the goals of the BDS movement?

Secondarily, do your views coincide with his with respect to the goals of the movement?

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Here's something for you to consider...

I don't actually agree with the views of the OP, but I've found yr attitude in this thread and the way you strongly implied that supporters of BDS who don't agree with him are dishonest to be quite objectionable.

[oberliner]

26. Was just curious to get the views of the person who posted the OP nt

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Well, you got mine as well. I hope you consider what I said n/t

[oberliner]

29. Your point is taken

I appreciate that there can be a diversity of opinions within a particular movement.

I would argue, however, that a movement tends to have some core principles that its members unite around.

I do not see how Israel's continued existence as a Jewish state can be reconciled with those core principles.

Ahmed Moor appears to be making that same point in his writings here.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Ah, so opinions you like to see are 'core principles'...

What you want to see or not see doesn't matter seeing as how yr not someone who'd ever support boycotts or sanctions when it comes to Israel. What I see, on the other hand, would matter a bit more because I would support actions such as those to protest Israel's actions...

[oberliner]

32. They aren't opinions I like to see

They are, in fact, the opposite of the opinions I'd like to see.

Everyone ought to know what the BDS movement stands for, not just the people who support them.

What are the fundamental core principles of the movement in your opinion?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. They very much appear to be ones you want to see...

Note, I'm not saying they're opinions you agree with, but opinions that you find easy to go 'gasp! look at those big bad people and what they think! how terrible!'

I didn't say people shouldn't know what something meant. In fact, I'm sure I said something very different that involved saying that it doesn't matter what you do or don't think about it seeing as how you've never supported any boycotts or sanctions...

[oberliner]

34. Does it not matter what you think about AIPAC?

You are not (as far as I know) planning to support AIPAC or become a member of AIPAC, however, you have expressed your opinion about that organization and what you believe it stands for.

I am not sure that I understand your argument here that you have to be a potential member of a group in order for your opinion of that group to matter.

I feel that is important to understand what a wide variety of groups stand for, many of which I have no interest in joining.

Do you not do the same?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Well, you seem to think it is as you recently asked me if I was a member...

Maybe you missed my answer? Unlike you when I asked you the same question, I paid you the courtesy of answering you and told you of course I wasn't a member as I'm not an American and detest them...

Now, the reason you don't understand what I said is because you aren't addressing what I said. I did NOT say that only a member or a potential member of a group could have an opinion. I think you need to go back and reread what I said....

No-one's stopping you from trying to understand what groups are about, btw...

[oberliner]

36. You are right I don't understand what your point is

I will chalk it up to my own cognitive limitations.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Yeah, you can file it right next to not understanding who Jimbo is n/t

[oberliner]

39. What do you mean when you say this is a "fabulous piece" ?

Do you feel Ahmed Moor does a good job of articulating what the BDS movement stands for?

[shira]

48. Looks like Gideon Levy would approve of all this

DC: If somebody was to call you a moderate Zionist would you have any objections?

GL: The moderate Zionists are like the Zionist left in Israel, which I can't stand. Meretz and Peace Now, who are not ready, for example, to open the "1948 file" and to understand that until we solve this, nothing will be solved. Those are the moderate Zionists. In this case, I prefer the right-wingers.

http://www.qassam.ps/interview-2605-A_rare_voice_of_courage__bravery_Journalist_Gideon_Levy.html