Holes shot in armys denail of gaza attack

[Tripmann]

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holes-are-shot-in-armys-denial-of-gaza-attack-1886331.html

"Doubts have been cast on the Israeli rebuttal of the Goldstone Report, after it emerged last night that a bomb was defused last year at a Gaza flour mill that Israel had officially said did not come under air attack in the war.

The presence of a large part of the fractured Mark 82 bomb was reported to a demining team in late January 2009, and technicians were dispatched to defuse the 500lb device on 11 February.

The flour mill is the only one in Gaza, and the Goldstone Report, commissioned by the United Nations, said its destruction "was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population". "



Interesting.

[Tripmann]

1. D'oh!

Dupe, posted 1 minute after violet.

Apologies guys, mods please delete.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. I like the title of the article you posted better...

And they're not the same article, though they're about the same thing. Anyway, I hope *if* the mods do anything, they merge the OP I posted into this thread...

[bemildred]

8. Denail is not just a river in Egypt.

:-)

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Opposing narratives (in Europe and U.S.)

Last week The New York Times (Bronner reporting) sandbagged the Goldstone report on the specific question of whether Israel had meant to destroy Gaza’s only flour mill a year ago:

The Goldstone report asserts that the Bader flour mill “was hit by an airstrike, possibly by an F-16.” The Israeli investigators say they have photographic proof that this is false, that the mill was accidentally hit by artillery in the course of a firefight with Hamas militiamen.

The dispute is significant since the United Nations report asserts that “the destruction of the mill was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population,” an explicit war crime.

Comes now England’s Guardian, one week later, challenging Israel’s response, with a story saying that there is proof that Israel targeted the al-Badr flour mill.

The UN mine action team, which handles ordnance disposal in Gaza, has told the Guardian that the remains of a 500-pound Mk82 aircraft-dropped bomb were found in the ruins of the mill last January. Photographs of the front half of the bomb have been obtained by the Guardian.

This evidence directly contradicts the finding of the Israeli report, which challenged allegations that the building was deliberately targeted and specifically stated there was no evidence of an air strike. Goldstone, however, used the account of the air strike as a sign that Israel’s attack on the mill was not mere collateral damage, but precisely targeted and a possible war crime.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/02/opposing-narratives-in-europe-and-u-s.html

[Tripmann]

4. Cheers

It will be interesting to read here how goldstone paid off some self-hating traitor jews to sneak the front half of a 500lb bomb into the mill.

:-)

[Violet_Crumble]

5. I think it'll have a better touch if Hamas can be blamed for it...

They sneak it in past the poor, terrorised owner of the mill and proceed to make a Pallywood production where that ever antisemitic Al-Guardian eagerly snap up some pics of the Pallybomb as part of its plot to destroy Israel. Let's hope the forces of Truth and Goodness that are Dershy and CAMERA gallop in quickly to sort out this little misunderstanding! ;)

[azurnoir]

6. the story from Ha'aretz

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146968.html

posted mainly for the talkbacks, which are quite predictable "THE PALS PLANTED IT THERE!!!1!!"

[Scurrilous]

9. Thanks.

The talkbacks are hilarious. :thumbsup:

[shira]

7. Goldstone and the flour mill case (for those believing Goldstone's accusations have merit)

http://harris-adhoc.blogspot.com/2010/01/goldstone-and-flour-mill-case.html

condensed version...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x299129#299155

[azurnoir]

10. That's really nice

however it seems that additional information has come to light

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Yeah, it's pretty hard to ignore that shell that was found...

Mind you, I can see that some are going to squeeze their eyes really tightly shut and pretend it doesn't exist ;)

[shira]

13. Goldstone claiims Israel bombed the mill to deny Palestinians sustenance

Facts show that's not the case at all, as Goldstone's main witness and UNITAR say there were tanks and ground fighting.

Goldstone lied when he claimed there was no military reason for Israel bombing the flour mill.

Also, a 500 pound bomb would have done a lot more damage to the mill than what UNITAR observed.

[Tripmann]

14. Priceless

"Also, a 500 pound bomb would have done a lot more damage to the mill than what UNITAR observed."

:rofl:

You DO know the bomb was unexploded, yes? Or did you stop reading the OP when you got to the end of the first sentence and hamas hadn't been blamed?

[shira]

15. so we're to believe the IDF dropped a dud and then stopped bombing.....okay.

Orders were to bomb the factory. The bomb was a dud. Then the powers that be changed their mind after the dud failed to detonate and they decided against bombing again. You think that's plausible.

Of course, you probably believe Israel tried obliterating the flour mill in order to deny Palestinians sustenance, despite evidence to the contrary that Goldstone deliberately ignored. Are you a 911 truther as well?

:eyes:

Goldstone lied, didn't he?

[shaayecanaan]

16. So you deny that Israel bombed the flour mill? -nt-

nt

[shira]

17. i can't say i know anything for sure on this, except that Goldstone lied...do you deny that?

It just appears silly that Israel called for an airstrike to bomb the mill, dropped a dud, and then changed their minds and stopped bombing.

And do you think Goldstone is right, that Israel bombed the mill to deny Palestinians sustenance?

[shaayecanaan]

18. They didnt change their minds...

First of all, the UN found a large fragment of a bomb, so it is likely the device at least partially detonated.

Secondly, Israel followed up the bomb with missile strikes from Apache helicopters, so they did not "stop bombing".

Thirdly, the destruction of Gaza's only flour mill was accompanied by the widespread destruction of other vital food infrastructure:-

1) The Zeitoun battery egg farm, which provided most of Gaza's eggs, flattened by Israeli tanks
2) The Gaza juice factory, destroyed by tanks and airstrikes
3) The Sarayo biscuit factory

The destruction of food-related infrastructure was consistent with Israel's stated policy on Gaza:-

"Its like an appointment with a dietician. The Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won’t die."

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger"

Dov Weisglass, Senior adviser to PM Ehud Olmert

[shira]

19. UNITAR disagrees with Goldstone

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNITAR_UNOSAT_FFMGC_31July2009.pdf

look on page 28.

"The Al-Badr Flour Factory of Sudaniyya appears in the satellite imagery to be composed of multiple building sites situated along the north side of El-Bahar Street. Based on the detailed assessment from the imagery, the only visible damages detected to the factory complex are to the southernmost building which was severely damaged along the southeastern side. The damages appear to have occurred between 16 and 18 January 2009. Within the immediate 500m vicinity of the factory complex there are a total of 43 detected damage sites, including 33 destroyed or severely damaged buildings. The majority of this identified damages occurred between 10 and 18 January 2009. There are clear indications in the imagery of extensive IDF tank movement and related damage to both buildings and vegetation cover in this area during the last three days of the conflict. It is probable, given the damage signatures, that the majority of damage in this area was caused by intense IDF ground fire. It is important to note that because of the angle of satellite imagery acquisition, it is possible that severe damage to the north and eastern side of the flour factory buildings has not been detected."

==========

Goldstone says all this happened a week prior, on Jan 9, 2009. In his report, he never mentions the UNITAR findings about IDF ground fire. In addition, Goldstone's main witness reported tanks in his public testimony...

==========

"»On the dawn of the tenth of January, we received a call from the guard telling us that the factory was targeted by air with a missile and that it had caught fire. After 15 minutes, he called us again and told us that there are tanks approaching the area and that the factory was targeted with tank fire. We immediately informed the ICRC and the Civil Defense in order to put out the fire in the mill. At 11:00 a.m., we were told by the Civil Defense that the fire had been put out and that the guard had been evacuated from the surface area of the factory.«(x)"

==========

Conclusions:

1. Goldstone suppressed evidence showing AT THE VERY LEAST it was very probable that there existed a military confrontation in that area at that time (and not just some evil bombing of a civilian structure). PCHR reports all Palestinian casualties in that area since Dec 27, 2008 were all militants. UNITAR confirms what the IDF reports about most damage being the result of intense ground fire (not bombs or missiles).

2. Israel allowed on average 3X the amount of flour the Badr Mill produced each day throughout OCL. This alone refutes Goldstone's retarded claim.

3. Do you deny Goldstone lied?

[Tripmann]

20. Shira, shira, shira

Your pathetic atttempts to derail the matter at hand is laughable.

Israel claimed they did not target the flour mill from the air. You have been vociferously fighting their corner in relation to this. Now it looks like they did. The fact that the bomb did not explode and (inconveniently for the IDF and you) became evidence to the contrary, does not change this. The attempt was made, an attempt that was denied.

Please answer the question that shaayecanaan and now myself is putting to you:

Do you deny Israel dropped a 500lb bomb on the flour mill?

[shira]

21. why are you avoiding the big elephant in the room - care to defend Goldstone's "facts"?

As for the alleged 500-lb bomb, it makes no sense. A good question is why are we finding out about this bomb just now?

UNITAR and IDF recon photography doesn't show any impact from such a big bomb on the factory. How did this bomb end up underneath a roof that shows no giant holes?

[Tripmann]

22. All you're able to do is answer the question with unrelated questions.

This thread deals with evidence coming to light that contradicts israels claims that they did not purposely drop a bomb on the flour mill.

Two people have asked you a question that you refuse to answer.

Your efforts to avoid the question are completely blatant because its the only question being asked thats relevant to the OP.

Please answer the question that shaayecanaan and myself is putting to you:

Do you deny Israel dropped a 500lb bomb on the flour mill?

[Violet_Crumble]

24. I'd like to see Shira answer that question as well n/t

[shira]

25. then here's a direct answer for you

1. If it turns out the UN is correct and they and/or the Guardian produce proof it happened, then it happened no matter what the IDF claims. Facts are facts. It will be interesting to see this proof and see the response.

2. Even if Israel dropped a 500 lb. bomb, it does not prove intent to deny Palestinians sustenance, given the evidence provided above which Goldstone suppressed. So no, there is no proof Israel "purposely" dropped a bomb on the mill out of malicious intent.

[Tripmann]

26. Shira, are you sure YOU'RE not the american comedian you

keep mentioning, because this is some hilarious shit!!

[shira]

27. what's hilarious? do you deny the UNITAR findings and Mr. Hamada's public testimony which verifies

...IDF claims of ground fire, tanks, etc?

I'm not sure why you trust the UN's word given their clear hostility and bias against Israel. Even Goldstone admitted the following...

"We had to do the best we could with the material we had. If this was a court of law, there would have been nothing proven.

We couldn't use that report as evidence at all.

And I wouldn?t consider it in any way embarrassing if many of the allegations turn out to be disproved."

Do you have reason to believe anything the UN claims against Israel (including this mysterious bomb)? Do you believe everything the Goldstone Report claims - given that Goldstone has started backing away from his own claims?

Are you a true believer?

[Tripmann]

28. So now you're answering questions with 5 questions.

Guess little miss noun-verb-hamas can't be straight with anybody, including herself.

(Ironically, a 500lb israeli bomb would make about the same hole as the one you've managed to dig yourself on this topic.....if it wasn't a 'dud' of course)

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yr still trying to derail the topic of the OP...

Points for being as subtle as a sledgehammer, I guess.

Ah, so even though everything that CAMERA trots out is a *fact*, when bomb fragments are found that indicate there's something very fishy about the IDF version of events, it's merely *alleged*.

If you have any evidence at all that the bomb fragments don't exist, feel free to link to wherever it is on the CAMERA site where they've rushed to debunk its existance ;)

[Violet_Crumble]

12. The OP was about the UN finding a shell. Got anything to say about that? n/t