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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 08:32 AM
Original message
Report: Israel will release Barghouti in Shalit deal
Israel will release Fatah strongman Marwan Barghouti as part of a deal to secure the release of abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, the pan-Arab newspaper Al-Sharq al-Awsat quoted Palestinian sources as saying Thursday.

Barghouti is currently serving five life sentences in Israel for his role in a series of deadly terrorist attacks during the second intifada.

According to the report, Israel will also release Ahmad Sadat, a leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Ibrahim Hamed, the former commander of Hamas' military wing and the mastermind behind the 2002 terror bombing at the Moment cafe in Jerusalem.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130775.html

Attacks attributed to Ibrahim Hamed

* According to Israeli security sources on December 1, 2001, Hamed dispatched two suicide bombers who blew up in Zion Square and Ben Yehuda St. in Jerusalem killing 11 people and injuring dozens.<1>
* On March 9, 2002, a Hamas suicide bomber dispatched by Hamed blew himself up at Moment cafe massacre in Jerusalem killing 12 people.<1>
* Six people were killed in a suicide attack planned by Hamed at the Sheffield Club in Rishon Letzion on March 7 that same year.<1>
* A bomb planted in a cafeteria at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem killed nine students on July 31, 2002.<1>
* On November 9, 2003, Hamed ordered two timed suicide bombing attacks at a major Jerusalem junction and at Café Hilel in the capital. Seventeen people were killed on that day.<1>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Hamed
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excess_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. could someone please explain why, 3 for 1 ?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Because Arab life is cheap...
which is why you can drop anonymous death on them from 2 miles high with relative impunity.

This is the one occasion in which the exchange rate works in Arabs' favour.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think they should release the Palestinian terrorists in exchange for the Israeli soldier
Once freed, I think they should secretly go after the Palestinian terrorists.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Marwan Barghouti is as much a terrorist as Nelson Mandela or Jomo Jenyatta
and he is the best and only chance for a 2-state solution peace.

I tend to agree with others that say that the time for a 2-state solution is long gone. Jewish settlements have made a 2-state solution an impossibility.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You do realize that all Israelites were Egyptian?
Edited on Thu Nov-26-09 12:54 PM by IndianaGreen
The term nation was used to differentiate monotheistic Egyptians from the rest. Just where in the hell do you think monotheism came from? Hint: Not Abraham, and not Moses.

Aaron was a priest, who made him priest?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And we were all African.
So, when will you be moving out of your area and handing it to the First Nation Peoples?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The initfada was a response to the 24/7 terrorism that is the Occupation
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 10:22 AM
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Good point. nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Supporters of one-state usually get hauled over the coals here...
Don't worry. Being a supporter of Greater Israel, I doubt you'll raise the ire of all but a few of the ones who harangue supporters of a one-state binational and democratic solution, which clearly is far more dangerous and bigoted to support than supporting a Greater Israel...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:41 PM
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'll bet I'm far more to the left than you'll ever be. :)
And I do mean that sincerely. We can compare notes on any other issue.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 01:29 AM
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Bigot? Not even. I like the truth. I don't like people reshaping the truth into a lie
Then spreading it around. I will never allow that, not from you, not from anyone.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:14 PM
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Is it possible for you to speak coherently? It was a simple question I asked you...
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 03:44 PM by Violet_Crumble
Don't be shy about giving a clear answer. Forget about yr obsession with Mexicans for one moment. There's no similarity at all between Mexicans and Palestinians. I asked you to explain what you think should be done to Palestinians in the West Bank. Shall I make it even easier for you and create a poll (except polls don't work down here) of the only two options available to those like yrself who support Greater Israel?

Here goes. Is yr solution:

1) To force all Palestinians in the West Bank out of the West Bank and into surrounding countries and to kill any who refuse to go?

or

2) Let them stay where they are except if their land's needed for settlements, and just don't give them the right to vote or allow them to become Israelis or to have any of the civil and human rights accorded to Israelis?



Once you've answered that, maybe you could share the names of those history books you claim to have read that have shaped yr very special views on Israel and the Occupied Territories?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The solution is already in place as it is right this moment.
What else do you have in mind? Partition? Should we give Mexican immigrants Texas and California so they could live there?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I'm not sure why yr being so coy about what is a very simple question...
It's not like yr at risk of being banned for anything you say, so why suddenly go shy?

Here's what I asked you yet again. See if you can actually answer it this time:

Don't be shy about giving a clear answer. Forget about yr obsession with Mexicans for one moment. There's no similarity at all between Mexicans and Palestinians. I asked you to explain what you think should be done to Palestinians in the West Bank. Shall I make it even easier for you and create a poll (except polls don't work down here) of the only two options available to those like yrself who support Greater Israel?

Here goes. Is yr solution:

1) To force all Palestinians in the West Bank out of the West Bank and into surrounding countries and to kill any who refuse to go?

or

2) Let them stay where they are except if their land's needed for settlements, and just don't give them the right to vote or allow them to become Israelis or to have any of the civil and human rights accorded to Israelis?



Once you've answered that, maybe you could share the names of those history books you claim to have read that have shaped yr very special views on Israel and the Occupied Territories?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. This reminds me of Abbot and Costello, so I'm off to leave you. Find someone
who will play along with you.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Sorry, but there's no other supporters of Greater Israel here to ask...
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 10:04 PM by Violet_Crumble
And you didn't even bother trying to answer the very direct and specific question you were asked, so cut the crap. But it's typical that extremist types evade answering direct questions about what their stances would lead to. When yr interested in actually answering any questions yr asked about yr views rather than frothing at the mouth about Mexicans, feel free to come back and entertain us..
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Sarah, why do you put "Palestinians" in quotes?
I'd really like to know.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Because she doesn't believe the Palestinian people exist...
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 09:38 PM by Violet_Crumble
I think we should be grateful she's not saying the same things about Israelis, because she would have been tombstoned before she could get any replies in...
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. I know holocaust deniers can't post here. SHould Palestinian deniers be welcome?
I think not.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Personally I wish all those types would bugger off back to wherever they came from n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
38. Deleted message
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Yeah, you are a bigot when you support a Greater Israel..
..and deny the existance of Palestinians. Hitting alert on anyone who objects to yr bigotry doesn't stop us from saying or thinking it, btw...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. It's not so much the "tolerated" crap that bothers me
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 02:07 AM by Alamuti Lotus
I've seen some eminently retarded views bandied about on quite frequent occasion; that bothers me little, as with a large enough group that is safe to expect, and often entertaining. It is the fact that it is with such bold, casual frankness that such nonsense flies from SI's fingers that interests me. Reminds of holocaust deniers and supporters of the Iraqfghan occupations (which are often overlapping camps, now that I think about it); strong "White Is Black" and "Up is not only Down, but Sideways as well" lines of thought, which puzzles me greatly. I have decreed that "Batshit crazy" should not take such a proudly aloof form: you must know how crazy all of that sounds, and yet....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. I think what I find far more irritating than anything is the total silence from supporters of Israel
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 03:47 PM by Violet_Crumble
Hell, this one's only denying the existance of the Palestinians as a people worthy of self-determination and advocates either ethnic cleansing or the end of Israel as a democracy. It's not like she's supporting one democratic bi-national state with equal rights for all regardless of ethnicity. I've posted at forums where bigots and their extreme positions are allowed to post, and they are entertaining, though after a while they all get very boring, but here at DU where I've seen people quickly tombstoned for linking to Holocaust denial sites or peddling antisemitic opinions, I find it a bit irksome but no longer surprising that the same doesn't happen to those who peddle bigoted and extreme views about Arabs...

p.s. I shouldn't say total silence, as there are one or two supporters of Israel in this forum who do speak up and have spoken out in the past when extremist anti-Arab views are expressed here...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. did i miss this thread?.......
this would have been *entertaining*.....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. It's a shame there's a bunch of deleted posts coz it was funny...
In a nutshell, a lot of ignorance about what a democracy is and even more confusion where they believed the West Bank was Israel and the Palestinian inhabitants are some sort of squatters that needed to be compared constantly to Mexican immigrants to the US. That's the second funny thread I've read in here in as many days :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Deleted message
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yeah right. There are concentation camps, and babies are being thrown up in the air and shot
Give me a f break.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Holocaust deniers don't deny there were concentration camps...
Yr about as ignorant on how those so closely related to yrself operate as you are about the history of Israel and Palestine. What they use to get a leg up with their denial is to fixate on smaller points that can be virtually impossible to prove in a concrete way. That means they'll attack survivor accounts of what was done, will insist that atrocities carried out were a continuation of the Hun atrocity stories that the British created in WWI for propaganda purposes, and try to bog people down in minute detail and insist that if they can show one small discrepancy, the whole Holocaust must be treated with scepticism.

Now that I've thought about it, yr probably more closely related to the types who insist that Israel should be dismantled and who deny the right of Israelis to self-determination and who put dit-dits round the word Israeli just the same way you do with Palestinians. If you want to try arguing that theyre bigots while yr not, it should be entertaining reading...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Yeah, just like anyone who falls for the invented Holocaust stories is a bigot...
Or that's what yr close relative, the Holocaust deniers would insist, and like them yr full of it. When it comes to the *truth* according to bigoted types like yrself and them, it's only the bigot who knows the *truth*, and anyone who objects to their ugly ranting and denial is just trying to muddy the waters and hide the *truth* by pointing out that them and their views are really bigoted and moronic...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. There were no Indians?
Edited on Thu Nov-26-09 06:43 PM by Douglas Carpenter
that nonsense was dismissed by ALL credible scholars including ALL CREDIBLE Israeli scholars and ALL CREDIBLE pro-Israeli scholars years ago! One would be left with relying on "history" according to the most extreme right-wing of pro-settler "historians" to defend this right-wing wacko "theory" long, long rejected by ALL credible Israeli and pro-Israeli scholars some time ago.

Furthermore, it would be good to remember that 2-1 = 1. Without a two state solution, there will in fact be a one state solution. And this will, undeniably within a decade or so - in fact be one state with an overwhelming Palestinian/Arab majority. If that is what you want, you will find yourself with some very unexpected allies. That is what the reality of rejecting Palestinian statehood means down on planet earth in the world of reality.




from:

Fred M. Donner
Professor of Near Eastern History
The Oriental Institute
The University of Chicago
Chicago, Ill.

link:

http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/web_exclusives/more/more_

The population of Palestine (west of the Jordan river) in 1880 was under 590,000, of whom 96 percent were Arabs (Muslim or Christian); roughly 4 percent of the population was Jewish.

By 1914, the population of Palestine was about 650,000. Of this, the Jewish population was about 80,000, or a little over 12 percent. Of the 88 percent remaining, 570,000 people, Israeli and non-Israeli scholars estimate that at least 550,000 were Palestinians (Christian or Muslim) who were descendants of families in Palestine already in the 1840s — or almost 85 percent of the total 1914 population of Palestine. The great majority of them, in other words, were not recent immigrants.

There was a lot of immigration to Palestine between 1880 and 1948, of course, but most of it was by European Jews, who came in several well-defined aliyot ("waves"), drawn to Palestine by the Zionist dream or fleeing economic hardship and persecution in Europe. The first aliya (up to 1903) brought 25,000 new Jewish immigrants, roughly doubling the Jewish population of Palestine.

The second aliya (1904-1913) brought another 35,000 Jews. The third aliya (1919-1939) saw the arrival of 350,664 Jewish immigrants, according to British Mandate statistics.

In 1945, the Jewish population of Palestine stood at about 554,000, or about 30.6 percent of the total population of Palestine at that time, which was 1.8 million. Mr. Schell is absolutely right: Some Jewish communities have existed in Palestine for hundreds of years. But, as the figures above make clear, most Jews in Israel today are, in relative terms, newcomers — descendants of people who arrived during the past three or four generations; to call them "colonists," as Professor Doran did, is not inappropriate.

On the other hand, Mr. Schell is absolutely wrong to hint that Palestinians are generally newcomers: As we see, most Palestinians of today can trace their ancestry to families who have been resident in Palestine for hundreds of years. The debate over immigration figures is, of course, merely part of the broader effort by Palestinians and Israelis to delegitimize each other by claiming the other side to be interlopers. Mr. Schell's evident desire to cast doubt on the historical roots of the Palestinians' claim to their land suggests that he has been taken in, like many other people, by such works as Joan Peters's tract "From Time Immemorial," which popularized for obvious political purposes the myth that many Palestinians were descendants of recent immigrants.Such a view is simply not supported by the evidence. "





There Were No Indians


By ANTHONY LEWIS (NYT)
Published: January 13, 1986

Has the life of the mind been so politicized in this country that intellectuals who welcome a book's political conclusion will shrug off challenges to its truth? That is the troubling question raised by the controversy over ''From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine,'' by Joan Peters.

The Peters book, published in 1984, makes dramatic assertions on the basis of what it calls fresh historical evidence. It says that Palestine was essentially ''uninhabited'' by Arabs before the Zionist movement began toward the end of the 19th century. The Arabs came in large numbers after that, from nearby countries, drawn by the economic effects of Jewish settlements.

Miss Peters concludes that those who call themselves ''Palestinian Arabs'' - she puts the words in quotes - are mostly recent arrivals and hence have no real moral or historical claim to the land. She argues this in 600 pages of text, footnotes and appendixes.

snip:For example, Miss Peters asserts that in 1893 the western area of Palestine, where Jewish settlement had begun, had a population of 59,431 Jews and 92,300 non-Jews. That shows, she says, that the Zionist settlers were hardly intruding into a land full of Arabs.
But an 1893-94 census by the Ottoman Empire, which then controlled the area, showed a total of 9,817 Jews in all of Palestine and 371,969 Moslems. How did Miss Peters get her results? She used the census only in part, relying also on an estimate by a French traveler of the time, regarded by experts as worthless.

For her claim that immigration from nearby countries greatly swelled the number of Arabs in Palestine, Miss Peters cites scattered statements -often leaving out key words or misrepresenting them. Thus she cites a 1930 British report's mention of ''pseudo-travelers'' who stayed in Palestine to live as if it were referring to Arabs, when the reference was evidently to Jewish travelers.

In small ways as well as large the book is slippery. Miss Peters says a report by the Institute for Palestine Studies found that 68 percent of the Arabs who became refugees in 1948 ''left without seeing an Israeli soldier.'' The report was actually about refugees in the 1967 war, and the percentage was of just 37 refugees who were studied.

It is impossible to detail the character of ''From Time Immemorial'' in a newspaper column. It has been fully explored in criticisms by, among others, Norman Finkelstein, a Princeton graduate student; Bill Farrell, a Columbia law student; Sir Ian Gilmour, a British M.P., and his son David, and Albert Hourani, an Oxford historian who called the book ''ludicrous and worthless.'
'
The criticisms are unanswerable, or at least they have not been answered. That is the extraordinary thing. So far as I know, neither Miss Peters nor any of her supporters has answered a single one of the charges of distortion and fraud made against it.

Instead, it is said that the critics are from the political left, as a few are, or have been identified with the Palestinian cause, as some have. In other words, only politics matters, not facts. That from intellectuals.

The latest criticism is going to be hard to dismiss even on such grounds: a piece by Prof. Yehoshua Porath of the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, in the current New York Review of Books. It is devastating on Miss Peters's methods. And it is moving on the courage and loneliness of the early Zionist settlers, surrounded as they were - and as they wrote - by Arabs.

Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have. Perhaps that is because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people identity. As Professor Porath says, ''Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history.''

From NYT: EDITORIAL DESK

ABROAD AT HOME; There Were No Indians
By ANTHONY LEWIS (NYT) 775 words
Published: January 13, 1986





Mrs. Peters's Palestine


By Yehoshua Porath ( of the Hebrew University, Jerusalem,)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/5249

snip:" all the research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic revolution. Until the 1850s there was no "natural" increase of the population, but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced and modern hospitals were established, both by the the Ottoman authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. This was the main reason for Arab population growth, not incursions into the country by the wandering tribes who by then had become afraid of the much more efficient Ottoman troops. Toward the end of Ottoman rule the various contemporary sources no longer lament the outbreak of widespread epidemics. This contrasts with the Arabic chronicles of previous periods in which we find horrible descriptions of recurrent epidemics—typhoid, cholera, bubonic plague—decimating the population. Under the British Mandate, with still better sanitary conditions, more hospitals, and further improvements in medical treatment, the Arab population continued to grow.


The Jews were amazed. In spite of the Jewish immigration, the natural increase of the Arabs—at least twice the rate of the Jews'—slowed down the transformation of the Jews into a majority in Palestine. To account for the delay the theory, or myth, of large-scale immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries was proposed by Zionist writers. Mrs. Peters accepts that theory completely; she has apparently searched through documents for any statement to the effect that Arabs entered Palestine. But even if we put together all the cases she cites, one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural increase .

The Mandatory authorities carried out two modern censuses, in 1922 and 1931. Except for some mistakes committed in 1922 in counting the Negev Bedouins, which were corrected in 1931, the returns showed the strength of the "natural process" of increase. The figures for the last years of the mandate are based on continuous collection of data by the department of statistics. These figures showed that in 1947 there were about 1.3 million Arabs living in Palestine.

The strength of the process of natural increase was finally proved not elsewhere but in Israel itself. In 1949 there were about 150,000 Arabs in Israel within the 1949 armistice lines. To that number, one has to add the 20,000-odd refugees who returned to the state as part of the government's scheme for the "reunion of families." The Israeli authorities cannot be blamed, as the British "imperialists" were, for helping the Arabs enter the country. And despite the strict control of Israel's borders, the number of Arabs living in Israel proper has more than trebled since. The rate of the Israeli Arabs' natural increase rose sharply (between 1964 and 1966 it reached the world record of 4.5 percent a year) and brought about the remarkable increase in the size of that community. No Egyptians, Bedouins, Syrians, Bosnians, etc. were needed.

No one would doubt that some migrant workers came to Palestine from Syria and Trans-Jordan and remained there. But one has to add to this that there were migrations in the opposite direction as well. For example, a tradition developed in Hebron to go to study and work in Cairo, with the result that a permanent community of Hebronites had been living in Cairo since the fifteenth century. Trans-Jordan exported unskilled casual labor to Palestine; but before 1948 its civil service attracted a good many educated Palestinian Arabs who did not find work in Palestine itself. Demographically speaking, however, neither movement of population was significant in comparison to the decisive factor of natural increase."





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Deleted sub-thread
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Read some more?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
43.  that is an absolutely excellent book by the world renowned Israeli historian, Avi Shlaim of Oxford
for a truly great book about the history of the Palestinian people - few are better than the neutral and dispassionate book,

The Palestinian people: A History By Baruch Kimmerling, Joel S. Migdal

link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6NRYEr8FR1IC&pg=PP1&dq=The+Palestinian+People:+A+History#v=onepage&q=&f=false

for a political history - perhaps none is better than

The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian struggle for Statehood By Rashid Khalidi

link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nnxtAAAAMAAJ&q=the+iron+cage&dq=the+iron+cage



,
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Thank you for the suggestions - I'll check those out
Do you have any recommendations for books on the history of the Middle East?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. A history of the Arab peoples By Albert Habib Hourani and Malise Ruthven
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Thank you again :)
I'm in your debt :)
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. Just wow...
I'm practically speechless. Really, your views would make Netanyahu sound like a Peace Now activist in comparison....

But trying to comment:

The extremes meet, in thinking that anything BUT a two-state solution will work in any near future. If a two-state solution is difficult, anything else is impossible.

'The State is not Palestine, and the people who call themselves Palestinian are people from Egypt, Syria, etc.'

You remind me of those who regard Israel as just a Europaean colony. Honestly one could as easily say that your country is 'not America, and the people who call themselves Americans are people from Europe, China, Africa, etc.' Most populations include lots of people who came from somewhere else or whose ancestors did. It doesn't stop them from existing as whatever nationality they are!


'added themselves to the handful and grew themselves through bearing children'

Yes, that's the usual way that populations grow!
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. Interesting; Barghouti is basically "bad news for Israel" (tough shit, I say)
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 08:10 PM by Alamuti Lotus
but nearly equally bad news for Hamas, and the Fat'h old guard that is so servile to US/Saudi/Israel.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
45. actually hes good news for hamas..
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 08:54 AM by pelsar
hamas gets not just political points for getting him out...they get a new threat to fatah thats been arresting their members in the westbank...payback if you will. And if Barghouti does manage to create a political movement he'll owe hamas some pretty serious political favors....

its really israel and fatah that wants him behind bars.....
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. well maybe Fayyad or any other takers for the head of Fatah
want him in jail, however I would counter that the current Israeli government wants Marwan as head of Fatah, the hew and cry of terrorist and we truly have no partner for peace, how can we negotiate with this-are predictable, it could be seen as a way out of the current situation concerning the WB settlements
This would be the sole reason I would promote his cousin Mustafa over him
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. arafat already broke "that ceiling".....
you hew and cry is old and out of date....
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. ah the ceiling closed back up Arafat is dead n/t
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