Gaza rocket hits Israel, despite Hamas moratorium on Qassams

[oberliner]

Militants in the Gaza Strip fired a Qassam rocket into southern Israel on Monday, despite a recent declaration by Hamas that militant groups in the coastal territory had reached an agreement to halt cross-border rocket fire.

The rocket exploded close to a community in the Sha'ar Hanegev region, causing neither causalities nor property damage.

On Saturday evening, Hamas' interior minister said the militant groups in Gaza had agreed to cease firing rockets into Israel so as to prevent retaliatory attacks.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1130130.html

[Barack_America]

1. Then maybe it wasn't Hamas. nt

[oberliner]

2. That wouldn't be a cease fire then

If other groups can fire rockets from Gaza then that doesn't really change anything.

[Barack_America]

3. It depends who is firing them.

Or inciting others to do so.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I thought someone as fascinated by rocket attacks from Gaza would already know this...

5Hamas have said that they're going to put a stop to rockets being launched from Gaza, and that included militant groups that were firing them. It was all over the media earlier in the week, so I doubt very much you missed reading it.

It really is incredibly unrealistic to make out that Hamas has failed if there is even one rocket that's launched. A few are bound to happen, and a reasonable person who acknowledge that in the case of any ceasefire there's going to be a few times when it's not 100%.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. If Hamas can not control/prevent firings, how can they be considered the sovereign government?

[Barack_America]

6. A valid question.

[pelsar]

7. jordans a good example...

they protect their border with israel...and when someone slips through to israel they immediately inform the IDF and work together to trap them...... It maybe that hamas doesn't have full control, over everybody, which in fact is quite reasonable....but its how they handle the occasional rocket that matters.

[azurnoir]

14. If Israel can not or will not control

violent settlers how can they be considered sovereign?

It seems that Israel arresting a murder like Teitel long after the fact and only after he attacked Israeli's also means Israel somehow doing something to control the situation but if Hamas can not stop the attacks before they happen then they are doing nothing and all Gazans are somehow deserving of punishment

the double standard here is incredible

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Difference is the weapons used

Small arms are out of control of the government, in Israel or in Chicago.

Artillery (rockets is this case) are government assets and should be government controlled.

[azurnoir]

23. you do understand that the majority if not all

of the rockets used by the groups doing the firing as of late are kassams which perhaps you are unaware means kitchen and not manufactured in standard government controlled factories nor are therefore they assets and there for as hard to control as small arms

[oberliner]

24. Kassam does not mean "kitchen"

Where the hell did you get that from?

[azurnoir]

25. thanks for the correction

I have seen them referred to as kitchen rockets that is why, but that error does not change the point the rockets are not a standard military issue device as the poster I was addressing tried to say

[oberliner]

27. No problem - here is some info you may find interesting

Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam (1882– November 20, 1935) (Arabic: عزّ الدين القسّام‎, ‘Izz ad-Dīn al-Qassām), full name,Izz al-Din ibn Abd al-Qadar ibn Mustapha ibn Yusuf ibn Muhammad al-Qassam, was an influential Sunni Islamic preacher in the British Mandate of Palestine. In 1930, he founded the Black Hand, an Arab militant group, which he led until his death in 1935.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. I know the Qassam well and had to remind some here that they are not bottle rockets

While not requiring precision machining, clean rooms, etc. Qassam manufacture does require material not found in your typical garage or home workshop, especially in places like Gaza.

Given the small size of Gaza and the level of oppression by Hamas, it would support the argument that it could not have been stored and launched without some part of Hamas supporting it.

[shaayecanaan]

31. By jove sir, I know the Qassam well myself!!

I was able to confiscate a couple of them when I went on a night raid of the Hamas headquarters a couple of weeks ago, occasionally M16 gets me to do this kind of thing. Things got a bit dicey when I was parachuted behind enemy lines and came face to face with 10 or 12 Hamas banditti, but I pistol whipped two of them and the rest fled back into the shadows, having been cowed by this show of British supremacy.

It reminded me of that time I tackled a Bengalese tiger using only a barbecue fork, I should tell you about it at some stage.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Were they vertically or horizontally polarized? There was a huge debate in the Qassam community

Seriously, When I was young, I did ordnance...it was fun career while it lasted.

As for Qasamms...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=230909&mesg_id=231770

[LeftishBrit]

29. However, serious pervasive lawlessness does threaten the foundations of the state

Up to a point, crime is just crime - and then there is another point where the rule of law itself was threatened. Nowadays, crime in Chicago is, from what I know, just crime in Chicago. But when Al Capone and the mob ran amok in Chicago, one could have said that the city government was not fully sovereign. There is a difference between the USA and Israel here, in that America is much bigger and American government is far more 'devolved'; gangsterism threatened the rule of the Chicago city government greatly; of the Illinois state government much less; and the American government relatively little.

Israel, when it does not crack down on settler violence, is immediately endangering the Palestinians in the West Bank - and in the long term it may also be sowing seeds of a serious domestic-terrorism problem in the long term

In Gaza the point has already been reached where the rule of law has to a degree broken down.

[LeftishBrit]

35. That post was a little unclear...

what I am saying is that the behaviour of the violent settlers, is not only disgusting in itself, byt does indeed threaten Israeli government sovereignty. Not (yet) to the extent that lawlessness and terrorism (and a useless government) threaten Gaza government sovereignty - but it may reach such a point if unchecked. And that any government's sovereignty is threatened if it is completely unable to control violence and mob rule - and that this did indeed happen in Chicago in the past.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. It was ONE rocket, and I bet that claim of yrs doesn't extend to Israel controlling settlers n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. How many Gazans has the IDF killed since the ceasefire? Does anyone have stats?

[pelsar]

8. try this....

http://www.phrmg.org/aqsa/fatalities_list.htm

[IndianaGreen]

9. I don't blame the pro-Israel side for not trusting Hamas

I don't trust them either!

[Vegasaurus]

10. Why trust terrorists?

NO wonder Israel cannot trust Hamas.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Hamas wishes for the destruction of Israel

They cannot be trusted.

[Vegasaurus]

12. But yet there are people who don't believe that this is Hamas's goal

although they continue to state it and publish it.

I wonder why people think they know better than Hamas what Hamas believes.

Of course Israel should not trust Hamas.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I don't think you realised that you contradicted yrself...

On the one hand yr claiming that everyone must believe what Hamas says, and then on the other you claim that Hamas aren't to be trusted. Sorry, but if you don't trust someone then you can't make the automatic assumption that they're telling the truth in what they say...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Are we to "trust" Israel, which says one thing, and behaves in a manner thta belies its words?

Not exactly a strong track record there!

[oberliner]

19. It is fair to say there is mutual distrust between the two sides

Perhaps this prisoner exchange will help matters.

[pelsar]

20. no it wont....hasn't happend in the past....

I have no idea why people believe in fairy tales or that signed pieces of paper mean something in this conflict......

the only time agreements are upheld is when both sides have an interest...when the interest goes away so does the agreement. What does matter are the actual actions on the ground, they and only they make a difference.

When one side actually does something, and its then up to the other side to respond. This happens all the time with shooting, but far less when it comes to advancing peaceful coexistence....

Gaza is far more peaceful, not because of any paper signed, just the understanding that no rockets means no massive IDF incursions....or helicopter strikes in downtown gaza.

The westbank is quieter since the PA prefers to work with israel to put down Hamas and keep their economy working.....no signed pieces of paper there either.
___

its not the ceremonies or papers signed or promises that actually mean anything...its the physical actions on the ground that will move the relationships forward or backward....."trust" is not part of it.

[oberliner]

22. What impact (if any) do you think the prisoner release/exchange will have?

If this does indeed take place, do you think it will have any effect on the relationship between Hamas and the Israeli government?

[pelsar]

26. zero..nada.....but it will make things worse for fatah..

the exchanges have never produced anything more than further hostility on the part of israel toward the Palestinian or Lebanese/hizballa....the bargaining over bodies (not telling israel if they are dead or alive), keeping shalit hidden from even the red cross in the long run makes matters worse.

during the last gaza invasion, it was clear to every IDF solider that no one gets kidnapped....no dead bodies, no live ones.....there is a certain price to pay to ensure that such a thing doesnt happen, and it was the Palestinians that payed for it. As in life, all actions have consequences....this conflict is no different.

[shaayecanaan]

32. "and it was the Palestinians that payed for it"

So, in other words (let me fill in the blanks here) the "price" was that Israel launched far more air strikes at far more locations than they otherwise would have - and the ordinary Palestinians bore the brunt of it?

[pelsar]

34. no.......you got it wrong....i'l explain

it means that the invading force went slower, more careful with greater firepower at the points it was moving forward......

the only possible reason that i can think of for you believing in the additional air strikes is because you like to think of us as the "evil israelis".....that are rather sadistic.....

did i get that right?


part of the mud theory...keep on throwing...the less informed and niave and believers will simply suck it up.

[shaayecanaan]

36. then...

"it means that the invading force went slower, more careful with greater firepower at the points it was moving forward......"

...what was the "price" that you referred to?

[pelsar]

38. more Palestinians wounded and dead and at least one israeli

your reaction was: Israel launched far more air strikes at far more locations than they otherwise would have

which very clearly translates for me, into "punishment"...evil, diabolical, killing for killing sake.....

for the invading IDF force using more fire power in specific locations to protect its own force is more specific in nature and not "punishment oriented". It could be for you there is no difference but for those "pulling the trigger" there is a huge difference.

so you can clarify for my own understanding...is there a difference to you?

[Ken Burch]

13. And Palestinians can't trust an Israeli government that won't stop illegal settlements

No good comes from leaving the status quo in place. Even YOU would have to agree it would be immoral for those 500,000 settlers to stay where they are and that prevention of a Palestinian state's establishment would mean the end of all hope for the Palestinian people, since the Occupation is inherently unjust as all Occupations are.

[Vegasaurus]

37. But the conflict is not now and never has been

about the occupied lands of Gaza or the WB, and clearing them out (as in Gaza) will never result in peace.

Because the conflict is about ALL of Israel, which Hamas etc considers to be occupied.

They think all of Israel is theirs, and will not stop their violent resistance, ever, until they have
""freed" all of greater Palestine.

There is no hope for peace whatsover.

[LeftishBrit]

28. They are not trustworthy. They are a crap government.