Dershowitz slams Goldstone for 'spreading lies'

[Scurrilous]

American lawyer levels sharp criticism at author of report for refusing to debate him, sees it as absurd that Barak is under threat of being arrested while Mashaal roams London free of concern

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3809194,00.html

<snip>

"Jewish-American legalist, Prof. Alan Dershowitz accused Judge Richard Goldstone, the author of the UN report investigating Operation Cast Lead, of dodging an intellectual confrontation with him and of choosing to speak with relatively less incisive interviewers in order to spread lies against the Israeli government.

In a conversation with Ynet, Dershowitz claimed that Goldstone preferred to give interviews to public television over debating him. Dershowitz said that it isn't appropriate for Goldstone to filter whom he debates, saying that he chose to speak with Bill Moyers and People magazine, but refused to sit at the same table as him.

Dershowitz, a Harvard University law professor who gained fame through a number of highly publicized court cases, including that of OJ Simpson, invited Goldstone to a debate on the home turf of the report's author in front of his students at Fordham University, where he is a visiting lecturer. Goldstone turned down the invite."

<snip>

"However, Dershowitz said that he does not expect Israel to suffer much damage in the US following the report. He asserted that the Americans understand that the Human Rights Council is a farce and its conclusions not taken too seriously. Dershowitz claimed that Israel can breath easily in academic circles as well, saying that students in the US can think for themselves and will not believe that Israel decided intentionally to kill Palestinian civilians.

About two months ago, Dershowitz contacted Barak in a bid to help Israel quash the Goldstone Report, continue fighting terrorist organizations, and protect IDF officers in the legal arena. The Barak's office reported that Dershowitz provided the names of four American international lawyers to join the legal forum Barak is forming for just this purpose."

[Jim Sagle]

1. The Dersh roolz, Goldstone droolz.

[Ken Burch]

14. You just believe everything Bibi tells you, then?

And it doesn't matter how many innocent people that state kills in Gaza?

[IndianaGreen]

21. To pro-settlers, Palestinians are not even human

They learned all the wrong lessons from the past!

[shira]

29. "They learned all the wrong lessons from the past"

Who are "they"?

What happened in the "past"?

[oberliner]

31. Looks to be another Nazi Germany reference

It's kind of sickening that people think that Jews should have learned a lesson about how to treat people from their experience in the Holocaust.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Uh, just because someone is pro-settler it doesn't mean they're a Jew...

Seriously, yr far too trigger happy when it comes to this stuff. I don't want you to go to the other extreme of compliant silence, which is what happens when Arabs are compared to Nazis, but wouldn't it be preferable to sit and think about it for a few minutes before doing a knee-jerk response that isn't correct?

[Meshuga]

40. Okay

So what are these 'wrong lessons from the past' that non-Jewish pro-settlers supposedly learned? I mean, give me a break.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Not 100% sure but it could be the holocaust

If it is, it would be hoped that everone learnt a lesson from that.

[Meshuga]

47. I'm sorry but

The poster who said it has had numerous posts deleted in the past for being more explicit with some outrageous and downright nasty stuff. I totally understand the reaction given the record. It is strange that you don't.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. There's nothing wrong with what the poster said...

I don't understand a basically dishonest reaction where what Indy said was twisted into something else. And seeing yr so interested in Indy's posting history, I'd find it a tad strange that you wouldn't be considering the track record of the person who reacted to her by trying to twist something she said into something it wasn't, and continuing to do so even after they were corrected on it. They've done the same thing to others, including myself in the past, and I actually find it a bit strange that you claim to understand what is a rather unrealistic reaction that's not based at all on what the poster they're responding to said....

While I'm on this subject, I find it kind of disgusting that there seems to be a belief that while everyone else is expected to have taken lessons from the Holocaust, Jews are supposed to be exempt from that. The sort of attitude I've seen in this thread is making me suspect that to people who think that way the Holocaust is nothing but a convenient weapon to flay other posters with...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

65. That certainly seems to be the prevailing attitude, doesn't it?

[Meshuga]

70. I would consider someone's record

If I knew the person's record. I can't comment on oberliner's or whoever's record as I also cannot comment on yours because I don't really know you. But that is besides the point.

You not wanting to admit the context of the post with the history of posts (and try so hard to change the nature of it to paint all of us as dishonest) is troublesome. In all honesty, your denial and trying to change the nature of it makes me think that you are the one not being honest and knowing that deep down.

Regardless, I don't care what you think my intentions are. I am just not convinced that you are being honest and I am pretty convinced of what this poster really meant. I don't expect you to admit to anything because you won't.

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Sorry but it is dishonest to accuse someone of saying something they didn't...

That's the bottom line, and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on that. I've got zero interest in trying to work out why you know one person and not another...

Who's 'all of us'? I've commented on the lack of honesty in the accusation against Indy, but I don't recall saying anything about yr honesty or lack of it. I just find it strange that yr so very eager to sit there and pretend that Indy has said something she didn't and also very eager to talk about anything but what was said in this thread....

Given yr last sentence, I've come to the conclusion you don't appear to have any idea what the definition of honest is, seeing as how you won't admit that what was claimed to have been said was dishonest, and it's sitting right there in black and white. You don't get to accuse me of being dishonest because I pointed that out...

Seeing as how yr so adament that Indy's posting history means she meant Jews, can you explain how this works? If we have objections to someone's posts, we're allowed to twist whatever they say into something different and quite ugly? Unless you believe that pro-settlers are Jewish, that's where you appear to be leading me. And as I've already said, while I've taken Indy to task for her OTT and ugly comments, that one wasn't one of them and I refuse to be part of a lynch-mob formed by a poster who's got a habit of trying to turn even the most innocent statements into a comparison to the Nazis.

[Meshuga]

39. Oops

replied to the wrong message. Self delete.

[shaayecanaan]

42. I rather thought that was the point of holocaust awareness...

I mean, that everyone should appreciate the horrors of such a historical episode with a view to preventing a similar episode from happening again.

[oberliner]

43. That the Jews should have been taught a lesson by the Holocaust?

That is just lovely.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. No one has said that so why keep acting like they did?

[shaayecanaan]

46. I rather thought we all should have learned from the holocaust...

unless you consider that Jews (why "the Jews", as if they were a monolith?) should somehow be specifically exempt from those teachings, Im not sure why you would have a problem with that.

I think what you are trying to do is conflate that notion with an entirely different one, namely that the Nazis "taught the Jews a lesson" (and that that lesson was deserved).

I consider that dishonest and disingenuous, and I note its not the first time I have made that claim in relation to one of your posts.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. I'm positive there's been a deliberate attempt to misrepresent what Indy said...

I went back and checked and what she said was that pro-settlers learnt all the wrong lessons from the past. This has been clumsily twisted into her saying that the Nazis taught the Jews a lesson. I also consider that to be a bit dishonest, and it makes a mockery of claims from anyone who'd stoop to that level that they want the forum to be an educational and non-divisive place to post. I've taken Indy to task at times before for things she's said that I thik are really OTT and wrong, but that doesn't mean I have to sit back silently when she's being accused of saying something she didn't say...

[shaayecanaan]

61. I think most of her posts

are rubbish TBPH. Nevertheless I agree with you. I might add that the relative readiness of some posters to conflate innocuous statements with Nazi apologia sits rather ill with the professed sensitivity of those same posters about comparing Israel to the Nazis.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Be careful you don't quote Nietsche!

Don't know if you saw that recent subthread, but it was hilarious.


What I'm finding to be just a bit insincere in this case is the determination in the reply to you I just read to paint Indy as having meant and said Jews. Seeing as how it's very clear in her post that she was talking about pro-settlers, the poster continuing to make the accusation that she meant Jews is welcome to explain why they think people have to be Jewish to be pro-settler, as I've seen the very same poster use similar arguments about not all people being Jewish or Israeli to argue points in the past (eg bypass roads in the West Bank).

[shaayecanaan]

78. Yes, I remember that...

I thought that was quite lame.

[oberliner]

69. "They learned all the wrong lessons from the past"

That was the post to which I responded.

Who is the "they" in that post? Perhaps the poster in question could clarify.

It seemed to me that the "they" in question was "Jews" and that the "past" in question was "The Holocaust" - if this was not what the poster intended I invite that poster to correct my impression.

If that was what the poster intended, then that is where the monolithic idea of "Jews" learning "the wrong lessons" came from.

Implicit in that post is that there was a right lesson that the Holocaust was meant to have taught the Jews, and that, instead they learned the wrong one.

This is an offensive construct as far as I am concerned.

As for the purpose of Holocaust awareness and education, I thought it was to help justify the importance and necessity of the creation of Israel. Isn't that why Hamas opposes it so vehemently?

To wit:

"Regardless of the controversy, we oppose forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLU321904

[Violet_Crumble]

74. They said in their post it was pro-settlers. Please go back and read the post properly..

She said pro-settlers. You turned that into Jews, and you've been corrected on that more than once now, which makes me question the sincerity of yr motivations here. Of course yr welcome to explain why yr under the false assumption that to be pro-settler one must be Jewish, as apart from being a rather offensive construct, it's one of the most ridiculous connections I've seen and doubt anyone could seriously try to argue that when someone says 'pro-settler' they really mean 'Jew'. Okay, so it's not quite as ridiculous as implying that it's antisemitic to quote Nietsche, but it comes close...

[shira]

80. utterly disingenuous - what wrong lessons from the past did these pro-settler "nonjews" learn?

[shaayecanaan]

81. Holocaust awareness

I thought it was to help justify the importance and necessity of the creation of Israel. Isn't that why Hamas opposes it so vehemently?

So in other words, in order to justify the displacement and exile of Palestinian Arabs it is necessary to educate the public on what the Nazis did to Jews. Had the Germans not killed Jews, the theft of land from Arabs would not have been justified.

Have I got that basically right?

[oberliner]

82. Ask Hamas

Why else would they oppose learning about it?

[shaayecanaan]

83. I'm asking you...

"As for the purpose of Holocaust awareness and education, I thought it was to help justify the importance and necessity of the creation of Israel."

[oberliner]

84. You are citing a tongue-in-cheek saracastic gibe directed at Hamas

I do not share their views on the subject.

My opinion is that the Holocaust was a major historical event of the 20th century and ought to be included in a school's history curriculum.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. And yet again you didn't answer the question you were asked...

This is what you were asked: 'So in other words, in order to justify the displacement and exile of Palestinian Arabs it is necessary to educate the public on what the Nazis did to Jews. Had the Germans not killed Jews, the theft of land from Arabs would not have been justified.

Have I got that basically right?'

I'm taking it by the refusal to answer the question you were asked that the poster did indeed get it right...

[LeftishBrit]

121. I think the implication in general...

is simply that we should (Jews and non-Jews, every person in the world) ALL have learned a lesson about how dangerous and evil the human race can be when members of one group are tempted into murderous hatred of another group, and especially a minority group; and that we always have to be on our guard against the ultimate evil of genocide.

I don't think (as I think you may be interpreting it) that the implication is that Jews somehow did something to provoke the holocaust, and should learn from being 'punished'.

HOWEVER, I do think that some people misuse the first implication to imply that Israel *is* perpetrating a holocaust, and is just like Nazi Germany. That is of course malicious rubbish.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. OK, have Dershowitz provide contradictory evidence that proves Goldstone is "lying".

I have an open mind.

Otherwise, it's simply grandstanding and automatic gainsay. And a lawyer like Dershowitz should be able to rise to this occasion.

[shira]

7. here's contradictory evidence from an acquaintance of Goldstone

http://www.goldstonereport.org/pro-and-con/critics/316-trevor-norvitz-open-letter-to-judge-goldstone-191009

Apparently, Norwitz and Goldstone knew of each other in S.Africa. It is known that Goldstone has read Norwitz' letter but has not responded to it yet. For that matter, Goldstone hasn't responded to any substantive criticism of his report, such as the following...

http://www.goldstonereport.org/pro-and-con/critics/311-avi-bells-initial-response-to-the-moyersgoldstone-interview-241009
http://goldstonereport.org/open-letters-to-goldstone/431?task=view
http://www.goldstonereport.org/pro-and-con/48-critics/411-israeli-governments-initial-response-to-report-of-the-fact-finding-mission-on-gaza

Bear in mind that members of the commission like Goldstone and Travers are still boasting that no one has tried to substantively take on the Report. Goldstone has repeatedly stated that he would respond to any legitimate critiques.

[Jefferson23]

3. Dershowitz has as much credibility here as he did when he smeared Finkelstein, which amounts to none

[Sezu]

11. Anyone who outs Finklestein as a moron

is ok in my book and a lot of books around here. Those who support the terrorist praiser Finklestein are simple minded or worse. Why would anyone on the left support a terrorist supporter? Is that what the left has become now; so far left as to be far right?

[Ken Burch]

15. Finklestein is not a "terrorist praiser"

You don't have to oppose a Palestinian state to be against "terrorism".

[oberliner]

32. His praise of terrorist organizations has nothing to do with Palestinian statehood

He met with and had kind words for top Hezbollah officials in Lebanon:

"I think that the Hezbollah represents the hope"

[Jefferson23]

33. Finkelstein, his own words.

"After the horror and after the shame and after the anger there still remain a hope, and I know that I can get in a lot of trouble for what I am about to say, but I think that the Hezbollah represents the hope. They are fighting to defend their homeland," the Brooklyn-born Finkelstein told reporters. The U.S. government has labeled Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/942454.html

[oberliner]

35. Thanks for including the full citation

What is your take on his remarks?

[Jefferson23]

48. Actually oberliner, my post quoting Norman is incomplete, it has been awhile since his remarks and

with your question, I have gone back to trace it in full. My apologies for that error.

“The last thing I want to say is: After the horror and after the shame and after the anger, there still remains the hope. And I know I can get in a lot of trouble for what I’m about to say, but I think that Hizbullah represents the hope. They are fighting to defend their homeland, they are fighting to defend the independence of their country, they are defending themselves against foreign marauders, vandals and murderers and I consider it to be genuinely to be an honor to be in their presence.”


To answer your question on my take on Finkelstein, I would direct you to read the article in full below. I highlighted what I find speaks to the essence of his reasons for speaking when one takes into consideration the qualifier he extends specifically in Number 2.





“First of all I want express my horror and the difficulty it is to be in the presence of people who are the survivors of those who died. And it should be obvious that there are no words to convey those feelings of horror,” he said.

“Number two, those feelings of shame, because the simple fact is that the war and those deaths were caused by the US government. People should not fool themselves that this war was done by Israel; this was an American war and for American interests.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/more-from-the-daily-star-on-lebanon-trip/

I understand why he speaks as he does, and find his remarks uncontroversial considering the facts surrounding the issue. Simply put, he speaks out against injustice as an honest and sincere man.

I am also well aware that the US, Canada, Israel, the UK and Australia have listed Hezbollah as a terrorist organization but that label will not ever change the role nor responsibility the US and Israel have played over time in the region imho.

I will add this here as well, Finkelstein in his own words on the subject.



Questioner: Professor Finkelstein you have been criticized for saying you support Hezbollah. Can you explain your thoughts on this claim, if there's any basis for it?

Finkelstien: Well, there's excellent basis for it. At Columbia University they held up signs saying I love Hezbollah, I happen to think that was over stating it, I like it a lot ... I don't think the Hizbullah question is particularly complicated. We have, with all due respect, we have oldsters in the room. And I think a lot of the oldsters, in particular if they're of Jewish descent, they were 100% behind the Red Army's victory over the Fascist occupation. And they were thrilled when the Red Army smashed the Nazi war machine. And I'm sure a lot of the oldsters in this room were thrilled at the communist and socialist resistances in many of the countries of Western Europe to the Nazi occupation. Now, Stalin's record on human rights was NOT exactly what you would call stellar ... And neither was the record of the Communist Parties... but we all recognize the right of any people to resist a foreign occupation of their land. And the Hezbollah resisted the brutal Israeli occupation of Lebanon and dealt them a swift blow and defeat. I, for one, am very glad about that ... I think a foreign occupier should be thrown out of countries ... And I personally would be the very worst hypocrite in the world were I to condemn the Hezbollah for it's defeat of the Israeli occupation, whereas 'till this day I still celebrated the Red Army's defeat of the Nazi occupation of Europe. I refuse to be a hypocrite. They had a right to expell the foreign occupiers, so does Hezbollah. It was a splendid victory ...
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=600

[Ken Burch]

34. That was just the kind of thing people say when they're trying to get somebody to negotiate

Officials from the British government praised Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness when they were trying to get Sinn Fein to join the Northern Irish peace process.

Finklestein wasn't cheering on everything Hezbollah's DONE, for God's sake. Anymore(I hope at least)than HRC was cheering on the illegal settlements when she went to Jerusalem a few weeks back).

[oberliner]

36. He has praised Hezbollah, Hezbollah is a terrorist organization

Thus, he has praised a terrorist organization.

[shaayecanaan]

49. Depends on who you ask (as to whether Hezbollah is a terrorist group)...

ask the Europeans, they'll say no. Ask the Americans, they'll say yes.

Most attempts to characterise Hezbollah as terrorist tend to focus on the 1994 Buenos Aires bombing, but it is far from clear whether Hezbollah was responsible.

OTOH, even if Hezbollah carried out one terrorist action, does that make them a terrorist group? The US carried out the 1984 Beirut bombing (probably). If Hezbollah is a terrorist group on the basis of one bombing, does one bombing make the United States a terrorist state?

[Djinn]

51. and all over Israel there are museums and monuments

to terrorist organisations, The Palmach Museum of History, The Haganah Museum, Lechi Museum & the Memorial to David Raziel OMIGOD Israel is a hotbed of terrorism praisers :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

19. Dersh supports torture. I guess that makes you a torture enabler.

[Ken Burch]

23. Dershowitz has never done anything remotely like that.

Finklestein, on the other hand, proved that Dershowitz plagiarized a Mark Twain "quote" from Joan Peters, and that the Mark Twain quote Peters used that Dershowitz plagiarized was twisted through Peters' original elision. Mark Twain was not saying that the area Peters said he was referring to was devoid of population.

[Jefferson23]

25. Dershowitz did not out Finkelstein, he lied. That you believe Dershowitz is unfortunate.

That Dershowitz is now smearing Goldstone is shameful to say the least.

April 30, 2007
As Tenure Drama Comes Down to the Wire
Dershowitz v. Finkelstein: Who's Right and Who's Wrong?

By FRANK MENETREZ

The feud between Alan Dershowitz, a senior professor at Harvard Law School, and Norman Finkelstein, a junior professor of political science at DePaul University, is back in the news. Finkelstein is up for tenure this year, and Dershowitz has been waging an aggressive campaign against him. Both Finkelstein's department and an outside committee voted in favor of tenure, but the dean then recommended against it. As of this writing, the university has not made a final decision.

To date, the coverage of the dispute has not included any serious attempt at evaluating the merits of Dershowitz and Finkelstein's charges and countercharges. It's clear enough that these guys don't like or respect each other, and that each claims the other's work is a travesty. But the question remains: Who's right, and who's wrong? Answering that question ought to be relatively straightforward, and it is high time that someone other than Finkelstein or Dershowitz tried to do it publicly.

The feud began when Finkelstein charged that Dershowitz's book The Case for Israel (2003) was partially plagiarized and wholly false. Finkelstein ultimately published his critique as part of a book of his own, entitled Beyond Chutzpah (2005). The book quotes Dershowitz as offering, in an interview, to "give $10,000 to the PLO" if anyone can "find a historical fact in that you can prove to be false." (p. 91) Finkelstein maintains, to the contrary, that "he genuine challenge is to unearth any meaningful historical fact in The Case for Israel." (p. 91) Finkelstein goes on to quote one assertion after another from The Case for Israel, examine Dershowitz's supporting evidence, and then adduce his own evidence that the assertions are false and Dershowitz's evidence is worthless.

in full: http://www.counterpunch.org/menetrez04302007.html


edit to add, “It Takes an Enormous Amount of Courage to Speak the Truth When No One Else is Out There”—World-Renowned Holocaust, Israel Scholars Defend DePaul Professor Norman Finkelstein as He Fights for Tenur

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/5/9/it_takes_an_enormous_amount_of

[shira]

30. now you did it, Finkelstein is "Gawd" to many here & it's blasphemy to challenge him

[stranger81]

116. OK, who gave Daniel Pipes a DU user name?

This kind of tripe shouldn't even pass for reasoned discussion.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. My god what an arrogant putz!

I pretty much think that Goldstone has the right to speak or not speak to whomever he damn pleases. Does Dershie think the universe revolves around him?

[IndianaGreen]

12. How cute!

The Crunchy Froglets!

[Ken Burch]

16. Survey says "Yes".

n/t.

[Djinn]

52. in short, yes

the guy has an amazingly large ego

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Djinn! Good to see you around here again! n/t

[Djinn]

60. proof positive that I'm a masochist I reckon

good to see you're still slogging it out down here, I can only muster the energy to debate politics online on my holidays these days - too much of that on my paid time.

[peacetalksforall]

5. He's become a Bill O'Reilly. Except this is serious stuff. The UN. He now joins

the evangelicals and Dan Burtons and Jess Helms and Strom Thrumonds and John Boltons and all other Republicans out there who have tried to destroy the value and demean the UN.

He was once a hero. I even called his office to thank him for his even handed thinking. I wish I could cancel that call.

Now, he could never apologize enough to get back to hero status with me.

It seems like he wants us to not believe what we learned about Gaza. History erased? And we're not even talking Lebanon.

He is now many zeros off of clear thinking and justice.

Debate? About what? Whose stone was bigger than the other?

[oberliner]

6. Where he has destroyed the value and/or demeaned the UN?

It seems that the criticism is directed at the UN Human Rights Council, a body that has been universally criticized, including by the former Secretary General of the UN, Kofi Annan.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. He's slagging the UN off in the OP...

The UNHRC is part of the UN, which I'm surprised you didn't already know. What Dersh hasn't done is destroy the values of the UN, as it's universally known that Dersch is a dishonest apologist for Israel and anyone who takes him seriously is a bit of a moron...

[shira]

9. the UN is not serious....check out those links in #7 & you'll see just how ridiculous the report is

no serious impartial court would consider Goldstone's Report for more than 5 seconds.

it's a complete joke.

[Jim Sagle]

13. Meet the new UN, same as the old Berlin.

[Ken Burch]

17. The UN are not Nazis. It isn't Nazi to oppose the Gaza War

The Gaza War was never necessary for Israel's survival and never worth the cost to Gazan civilians. All civilized human beings oppose collective punishment.

[Jim Sagle]

20. But most of them don't oppose it so selectively.

[Ken Burch]

22. It isn't selective to oppose it being done to Palestinians

It's just that YOU decided that all Palestinians are subhuman creatures undeserving of life or hope. In this conflict, it's the PALESTINIAN side that is oppressed. The other side is at best mildly inconvenienced.

The side that kills more is the side to blame.

[Jim Sagle]

24. No, they just have better aim.

Unlike you when you tell me what my motives are.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

71. Not very representative, is it?

[shaayecanaan]

77. How would you know? nt

[Jim Sagle]

85. Or you?

[shaayecanaan]

86. And I quote...

Haaretz quoted a soldier as saying "most" of his colleagues wanted a copy of the shirts:-

What do you think of the slogan that was printed?

"I didn't like it so much, but most of the soldiers wanted it."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html

[Jim Sagle]

87. Watch this and get back to me. Or don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0

[shaayecanaan]

88. Let's recap:-

1. You said Israeli soldiers wearing t-shirts glamourising the deaths of Palestinians were not very representative.

2. I said that they were more representative than you thought, and gave evidence for that proposition.

3. You then said "OMG! Look over there at the Jew-eating rabbit on Hamas TV!!!"

Standard fare across these boards, alas, but quite puerile and pathetic nevertheless.

[Jim Sagle]

89. Hamas TV is SOMEWHAT representative of Hamas, I suspect.

As for the I/P folder, it should be shitcanned. Several years ago.

[shaayecanaan]

90. Not really relevant to the question, though...

of how many Israeli soldiers think along the lines of the image I posted.

Re the "shitcanning" statement:-

1) You're still here.

2) So is this forum.

3) Last time I looked, this forum was consistently amongst the top two or three most frequented fora on the site.

4) My guess is, if this forum was "shitcanned", the discussion would probably attempt to move back to GD, and if not there, then somewhere else. The Democratic Party attempts to be a broad church, and it tends to indulge its left wing as little as possible, but if the Left becomes disaffected and heads elsewhere (the Green Party for example) the Democrats tend to lose elections.

Perhaps this illustrates why the forum admins evidently don't care much for your opinion.

[Jim Sagle]

91. Or maybe it's because I'm only one of over 100,000 members.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. More likely they don't care much for yr opinion n/t...

[Jim Sagle]

94. Don't they teach Logic 1a down there?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Violet_Crumble]

95. They teach both that and how to spot complete morons

That latter comes in handy, especially when it comes to those self-centred ones who think DU admin should give a fuck about what they think when they're known to frequent other forums using a different name slagging off DU, and who have that strange illness OMC (may he rest in peace wherever trolls end up going) had where a reply is filled with mindless emoticons...

[Jim Sagle]

96. OMC was a five buck an hour DLC hogwash dispenser.

We don't have much in common.

And since you STILL don't get it, I'll explain again: I state my opinion because I want to, not out of any expectation that DU will pay attention to it.

You CAN'T be so dense as to misunderstand that. Can you?

[Violet_Crumble]

98. You two have so much in common...

You seem to think yr opinion's valuable to others than yrself, though. DU admin don't give a shit about yr opinion, which is what was pointed out to you. Deal with it.

[Jim Sagle]

101. All your bullshit posts tell me is what YOUR opinion is.

And I can't imagine anyone giving two shits about that.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. Nothing bullshit about my opinion...

And I've never claimed to give a shit whether anyone cares what I think or not. I'm still going to tell them. Learn to deal with it...

[Jim Sagle]

103. I guess you've gotten used to the stench.

[Violet_Crumble]

104. Well, now you mention it, I have been meaning to ask you to invest in some deoderant n/t

[Jim Sagle]

105. It's not me, it's you.

[Violet_Crumble]

110. You've got the same projection problems stenchies tend to have n/t

[Jim Sagle]

112. Then you understand them well.

;)

[Violet_Crumble]

113. I understand very well the problems you must be suffering from...

The stink is something I've gotten used to when I read those sickening posts of yrs where yr cracking jokes and making light of the violence and terrorism of the extremist settlers...

[Jim Sagle]

115. Obsessive compulsive behavior isn't healthy. You really should stop.

[Violet_Crumble]

118. If you know it's not healthy, get help for it, but don't blame me n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

26. It's the height of idiocy to compare the UN to Nazis...

Especially when they come from folk who hero worship bigoted hatemongers who advocate torture....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

66. Aren't Nazi comparisons forbidden in this forum? nt

[Violet_Crumble]

75. They're supposed to be n/t

[IndianaGreen]

18. No, you and people like are the joke!

I wonder if any of you even reflect on your fanatical support of Israel's policies to Palestinians during Yom Kippur.

[shira]

28. Goldstone is now "Gawd" & it's the height of blasphemy for anyone who dares to question his bible

...that he authored along with the rest of his goon squad saintly commission 2 months ago. Right or wrong?

[IndianaGreen]

10. The Dersh man is a hero to the pro-Israel side

but to fair minded people, he is just another advocate for imperialism and torture, and a total enabler of Bush's war crimes.

[shira]

27. and Goldstone who enables Hamas to keep destroying Gaza is your hero who is above criticism

so you'll have to excuse some of us for not taking you seriously as a "pro" Palestinian advocate on the side of all that's right and pure. It's reprehensible to defend what Goldstone is enabling in Gaza, and worse to pretend that he has tried to make life for Palestinians in Gaza better by doing Hamas' bidding.

As for Dershowitz, I'm not sure anything he's done can match Goldstone's recent report and this....

UN's Goldstone Sent 13-Year-Old Boy to Prison for Protesting Apartheid
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ashley-rindsberg/uns-goldstone-sent-13-yea_b_359696.html

Your "gawd" in action.

:eyes:

[Djinn]

53. He followed the laws of the land he was a judge in

regardless of how revolting those laws are or how they personally feel about them it's a judges JOB to apply them not their own personal views - what an idiotic thing to attempt to hang criticism of the guy on, idiotic and entirely desperate.

[azurnoir]

58. +1

LOL you were not supposed to notice that part
so which predictable response to good observation do you think will be forthcoming?
my vote goes with -"its proof positive that the (evil) left is singling out Israel because obviously you do care about HR violations against Black children" or some such:-)

[shira]

62. then why was the 13 year old's sentence up for appeal in the 1st place if it couldn't be overturned

...due to the 'law of the land'?

The very fact it was up for appeal goes to show it could have been overturned.

[Djinn]

68. sigh

and then what happened? and why? answer that and then come back and admit you're either WAY out of your depth in this argument or utterly disingenuous.

[shira]

79. double sigh........so there was no point for the appeal, right?

and Goldstone 'following orders' cannot seriously be your best defense of his reprehensible verdict? You realize decent liberal lawyers in S.Africa at the time refused to work under the apartheid regime for this reason? He's an opportunist. DeKlerk figured him out 15 years ago when Goldstone tried replacing Boutros-Boutrous Ghali, and it seems he's trying to impress the UN now so that he can position himself later as Secretary General at the UN.

http://www.rferl.org/content/Who_Is_Richard_Goldstone/1856255.html

It'll be interesting to see just how far the anti-Israel crowd will go to defend their idol once more information on Goldstone's record is revealed to the public. Apparently, he's some infallible saint and no amount of evidence will convince those who want nothing more than to see Israel demonized and eventually destroyed.

[Djinn]

120. no

not sure where I said anything about following "orders" but a judge can do NOTHING but follow the law, they don't make it they uphold it, good, bad or otherwise. I suppose he could have resigned but then again could a shit load of Israeli judges/soldiers/politicians etc

How come "following orders" is an OK defence for IDF involved in slaughtering refugees in Shatilla but it's reprehensible for a judge to follow the law???

Oh and before you reply I'm aware that Phalangist scum carried out (most of the) actual butchery, I'm referring to IDF members involved in patrolling the outskirts, trapping those who managed to flee & sending them back in, and who flew above the slaughter lighting it up so the murderers could see properly when impaling women and children. Those who knew EXACTLY what was happening and assisted it. Nice orders to be following.

[shira]

122. As someone for human rights, Goldstone had no business being a lackey for the apartheid regime

just as Goldstone has no business labeling himself pro-Palestinian. More on that below...

As for following orders, IDF soldiers are taught not to follow immoral or illegal orders from deranged commanders. A little teaching point for you....I know it blows your mind but many in the IDF are leftists who actually care about human rights. They simply will not follow immoral/illegal orders and will fight for what is right via the media or whatever means necessary.

Why, as someone who purports to be pro-Palestinian, are you defending someone like Goldstone who deliberately looked the other way WRT Hamas crimes against Palestinians during OCL (like boobytrapping homes and schools, shooting rockets from in between filled apartment buildings, storing weapons in mosques, using child combatants and child shields, Hamas setting up headquarters in hospitals, commandeering ambulances, etc..)? Since when is leaving Palestinians to rot under Hamas, to be nothing but expendable pawns under Hamas, a leftist virtue? What's pro-peace and pro-Human rights about all this?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Why does dersh think he's so fucking special?

Mr goldstone is under no obligation to be interviwed by someone who's renowned for their dishonesty and abuse. If dersh wants anyone but the Israel is always right crowd to take him seriously he really needs to put a stop to the lies and abuse.

Also I didn't read all of the goldstone report so unless someone can point me to where the report found israels intention was to kill as many civilians as quickly as possible I'll write it off as more bullshit

[Crunchy Frog]

41. Looks like Dershie is "Gawd" to a significant contingent here.

[shira]

64. no one has a problem criticizing Dershowitz...IMO he's a windbag with a huge ego

what's funny is how the anti-Israel crowd has canonized Goldstone's report and annointed him as some untouchable saint whose every word is infallible.

[Malikshah]

57. Massingill slams Dershowitz for giving their product a bad name

As does Glenn Beck and his Beckerhead brigade.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. LOL! Thanks for the laugh this morning! nt

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I guess I shouldn't be surprised Dersh made what looks like a dishonest accusation in the article...

'Dershowitz demanded that Goldstone provide explanations of the sources that led him to his final conclusion in the report, which asserted that Israel's policy in Operation Cast Lead was to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible.'

I've just been through the conclusions in the report and while it was lengthy, I couldn't see that particular conclusion at all. So unless I've missed it (I'm sure it'll be pointed out in this thread if I have), Dersh is a bit of a fucking liar...

[shira]

63. that's not a direct quote

if you've seen, read, or heard Dershowitz making that claim directly - let me know.

what is a direct quote are the many times since the report's release 2 months ago that Goldstone (and Travers recently) has claimed that the report hasn't been substantively criticized based on facts, logic, etc......and instead, there have only been personal attacks against Goldstone.

goldstone is a 'bit of a fucking liar...' now, isn't he?

:)

and there's plenty more proof of those lies throughout his report and interviews since then....

[Violet_Crumble]

76. No takers?

It's kind of sad that the only taker so far is the only person at DU I have on ignore. C'mon you Dersh lovers. Surely even one of you can explain to me why he's claiming there'[s something in the report that's not there at all?

[shira]

97. VIDEO: Dershowitz debate on Goldstone Report

http://israelactivism.com/video/

So much for Goldstone claiming no one wants to take him on substantively - or that he would be glad to respond to substantive criticism of his report.

:eyes:

[Jefferson23]

99. From the website you posted:

Listed under Activism Training,

Hasbara Fellowships staff can speak on any of the following topics:

•Communicating Effectively for Israel
•Answering the Most Difficult Questions about Israel
•Israel Update: Current Events and Trends
•Defeating anti-Israel Propaganda and Speakers
•Building Your Israel Group and Future Leadership
•Dealing With Media Bias
•Engaging the Unengaged on Your Campus
•Role Playing: How to Have Meaningful Conversations and Win Debates
•How to Table, Run Successful Events, and Build Coalitions
•Screening of "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West" (small fee)
•Screening of "Relentless: The Struggle for Peace in Israel" (end)

They advocate the film Obsession, nice group there shira.


Just after the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, a small charity group flooded campaign battleground states with an inflammatory DVD on radical Islam. Critics say the charity is trying to influence the presidential race.

Earlier this month, subscribers to 70 newspapers in 14 states got a little something extra: A DVD that argues the same hard, militaristic line on terrorism that John McCain takes in his presidential campaign.

It's called Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West. The DVD was made in 2006, before this presidential contest began, and it doesn't even allude to electoral politics.

But, filled with dire warnings about Islamic terrorists, it hit doorsteps seven weeks before Election Day. And critics say it fuels the false whisper campaign that Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim.

Madaline Muir of Montgomery County, Pa., got the DVD in her Philadelphia Inquirer. She called it propaganda.

"It's to influence people. Sent out now. Whenever it was made, 2006, but it's really to influence people in the election and scare people," she said.

Obsession was produced by the Clarion Fund, a 501(c)(3) charity, which cannot get involved in campaign politics.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95076174


Let me guess, the other film this group advocates, Relentless. Is it about Israel's relentless construction in West Bank settlements?

[shira]

100. i can't speak for the website, having never been there before..I just linked there for the video

and I agree that 'Obsession' is OTT demonization.

why are you incapable of applying the same standards to the very large amount of demonization that poses as mere 'criticism' of Israel? Are you as ignorant as the RW'ers at drool sites like JihadWatch who believe that crap is legitimate criticism or do you know better but feel 'at home' piling on with OTT demonization?

[Jefferson23]

106. YOU posted from that garbage website and now try

to deflect and accuse me of ignorance and incapable of recognizing the demonization of Israel, by who? Goldstein is a demonizer now, that is your new screaming meme I see, LOL

[shira]

107. i posted the only video available of the Dershowitz debate - can you find it anywhere else?

that link was on a blog....and that's how I came across it.

and yes, the Goldstone Report is demonization - watch the Dershowitz video and you might learn something. If the same unfounded and ridiculous claims were made against any other nation, that would be demonization....why wouldn't it also be demonization against Israel?

Here's more demonization that you're defending so desperately in another thread about the Berkeley Daily Planet...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x294772#294829

It appears you have one standard for anti-Muslim/Arab demonization and another for anti-Jew or anti-Israel demonization.

That's your problem, not mine.

[Jefferson23]

108. Apparently you don't read what you post, nor where you post from,

keep smearing Goldstone, and you only continue to smear yourself.

[shira]

109. now I don't read what I post? or where i post from? you mean the only video link available?

and i'm smearing Goldstone now?

don't tell me, he's infallible - it's blasphemy to criticize his report - your new bible - and it's wrong to criticize him like Dershowitz is criticized, smeared, etc?

now i'm curious - what if it were proven to you that the Goldstone Report is demonization? how would that change your views?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

111. Here's my fave propaganda topic: Answering the Most Difficult Questions about Israel.

I'm sure that's interesting!

[Violet_Crumble]

114. I need a laugh. What's the link to the site you and Jefferson are talking about? n/t

[ConsAreLiars]

117. You can cull the site from the link, but here is the Wiki about the owner/operators:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aish_HaTorah_International

Fundie, supremacist nutters who use very sophisticated techniques in recruiting the young and vulnerable for the "greater Israel" settlement operation. Remember the videos of mostly US tourist kids in Israel screaming epithets re: Obama? That would likely include some of those whose trips and training they funded.

One paragraph from the Wiki about how they operate:

'Aish HaTorah runs the Discovery Seminar, which uses methods such as the Bible Code to explore the authenticity of Judaism and its relevance to modern times. The four-hour seminar presents an overview of the entire gamut of Jewish history, philosophy, and attempts to answers questions such as, "Why Be Jewish?" "Does God Exist?" and "Is Torah True?"'

The video site was: http://israelactivism.com which says "About Us:"

'Hasbara Fellowships, a program spearheaded by Aish International, educates and trains university students to be effective pro-Israel activists on their campuses. Hasbara Fellowships, started in 2001 in conjunction with Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, brings hundreds of students to Israel every summer and winter, giving them the information and tools to return to their campuses as leaders in the fight for Israel's image. So far, Hasbara Fellowships has trained over 1,400 students on over 250 campuses. Upon returning from the program, the Hasbara Fellows receive support from our staff, which offers various campaigns, programs, speakers and other materials and tools. The organization focuses on college campuses, but the information and tools offered are applicable to other arenas as well.'

[Violet_Crumble]

119. Thanks for the link. That'll give me some fun reading tonight!

At one point I would have thought no-one could be moronic enough to believe the crap that lot peddle, but clearly I was underrating the sheer stupidity of some folk :)