PCHR Weekly Report: 1 child killed, 6 civilians wounded by Israeli forces this week

[ConsAreLiars]

From http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57163 :

During the last week, Israeli forces conducted 22 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank, and 4 into the Gaza Strip. During these incursions, Israeli forces abducted 32 Palestinian civilians, including 11 children, in the West Bank. Israeli troops positioned at military checkpoints and border crossings in the West Bank arrested 5 Palestinian civilians, including two women.

In addition, Israeli forces transformed a house in Hebron into a military site, and troops also established a fence along 'Azzoun village, east of Qalqilya. The Israeli government approved the construction of 900 new houses in "Gilo" settlement, south of Jerusalem. Israeli settlers uprooted 97 olive trees in Bourin village, south of Nablus.

Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip:

On 13 November 2009, Israeli troops positioned at the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel to the east of Gaza Valley village, southeast of Gaza City, opened fire at 7 Palestinian children and young men who were traveling on an animal cart towards the village. As a result, Mustafa Mohammed Sabri Wadi, 15, was killed, and Ahmed Khader Sa'doun, 17, was wounded by two gunshots to the abdomen and the thigh. According to one of the released detainees, the seven children and young men were on their way back from a market in Gaza City traveling on an animal cart. They saw a number of dogs. Five of them chased the dogs towards a solid waste plant, which is nearly 300 meters away from the border, and continued to chase them up to 150 meters away from the border. Israeli troops positioned at the border opened fire at them, so they attempted to hide behind a hill of sand, but gunshots hit two of them. Israeli forces moved into the area and abducted them. According to medical sources, Wadi was hit by two gunshots to the head and the left foot.

Soon after, Israeli forces moved nearly 300 meters into the area, and abducted 4 of these civilians, including the wounded child. The detainees were released later, excluding the wounded teen who was taken to an Israeli hospital.

[oberliner]

1. Wow, no wonder some people don't like this source!

If you look at the text of the PCHR report that this source appears to be quoting, you will notice that this source actually changed some of the wording from the report itself. For instance, this source takes out the word "arrested" from the PCHR and replaces it with "abducted".

PCHR Text: Soon after, Israeli forces moved nearly 300 meters into the area, and arrested 4 of these civilians, including the wounded child.

OP's Version: Soon after, Israeli forces moved nearly 300 meters into the area, and abducted 4 of these civilians, including the wounded child.

With respect to the incidents themselves, specifically the one mentioned in the headline, there appear to be some serious discrepancies about the facts.

The first question is with respect to the age of the person who was killed here, whom this headline identifies as a child.

According to the article, the person who was killed was named Mustafa Mohammed Sabri Wadi and was 15 years old.

However, articles from other news sources, including the Palestinian Ma'an News, identify him as being older than that, and, consequently not a child.

To wit:

The one youth confirmed dead was identified as 22-year-old Mustafa Muhammad Wadi.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=239543

Other sources have listed his age at 18.

The same article listed above mentions the following:

Palestinian witnesses said the group was on a hunting trip near the border east of Al-Bureij refugee camp when Israeli forces opened fire. Local medics said the fire was directed at the youths.

Israeli media reported that troops entered the Johr Ad-Dik area for a short while, where they located a group of men near the Nahal Oz crossing. They were planting an explosive device, according to these reports.

<end of citation>

Other sources have mentioned the claim that these Palestinians were hunting/chasing birds or the claim that they were chasing stray dogs up towards the Israeli border in addition to the Israeli claim that they were planning or attempting an attack of some kind.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Some people = you?

Sorry, I find it so hard to keep up with what you do or don't disapprove of given that you used it as a source only yesterday after repeatedly attacking it as a source prior to that....

[ConsAreLiars]

4. Every writer on any current news or historic or social issue and damn near anything down to

constructing an arithmetic lesson book for first graders does so in a way that expresses that writer's point of view. That you don't accept the POV of this Palestinian source is no surprise. But I OP'd it here just because it shows how the endless practice of killings and abductions by the occupiers are seen/felt by the victims.

Sometimes an attempt is made to conceal the bias in reporting by using selective details and more value-neutral words (you certainly know how this is done), but life experience and being enmeshed in an assortment of particular social/class/political/religious/friendship networks always means there is bias.

I find an article like this one far more honest than ones that just reprint official press releases or cite as fact whisper campaigns by those who see every murder of a Palestinian as a justified act of self-defense.

One fact is clear. Another week, and yet another Palestinian, or more, has been killed by the Israeli government, And the Israeli media is cheering/justifying it.

And there are those who would be howling with rage and calling for retaliatory mass slaughter (or at least calling such an response "understandable and reasonable") if one Israeli were killed or even abducted (or arrested, if you prefer) or several had their sleep interrupted. They don't even think it is worth mentioning or say it's OK because the victim was this or that -- more than 15 years old, shooting birds, chasing dogs, planting explosives, whatever. In short, just another dead Palestinian and who gives a shit.

(slight edit)

[pelsar]

5. i definitely like you honesty....in the words of a famous man...

"your either with us or against us"...

or perhaps...the ends justifys the means.....either way your consistent.

my favorite line in your post:
........, shooting birds, chasing dogs, planting explosives, whatever.

planting explosives and chasing dogs being the same thing.....i think for those of us who are less fanatic, that says its all.

[ConsAreLiars]

7. Those are the reasons given by your controllers in your media for the

the actions of that justified the murder. The "whatever' was just a reference to the fact that some of you, like you, who support the mass murder of Palestinians don't care at all about the facts.

(edit out one word)

[pelsar]

8. your too fast to judge...r e a d s l o w l y

it might help in the comprehension.....(but maybe not)

i didn't justify anything, having no real knowledge of the incidents...i was just noticing how you moralize chasing dogs and attempted murder as similar activities....

and why do you assume i have controllers...just out of curiosity (i get the impression your of the type that has no tolerance for other view points and opinions-as you have expressed here several times-freedom of thought not being one of your strong points....)

[ConsAreLiars]

11. ???

You misrepresent, or misunderstand at best, what I said and then reply with insults. I should have continued to ignore you as just another reflexive bigot.

[pelsar]

13. I'ld go with misunderstood at best...but then again

people who are actually tolerant of other viewpoints would have that as the "default"....others seem to have a knee jerk reaction of declaring all those that disagree "bigots" or as you so interestedly put it..being controlled.

what does that mean anyway?....being controlled?.....

i'll bet you can't even answer that..you probably don't even know what it means yourself

as far as putting me on ignore..its probably a good idea...i get the impression that the concept of having your beliefs even questioned is something akin to being blasphemous (isn't that a religious term?)

[ConsAreLiars]

15. Replying even though I know ignoring drivel is the better decision.

1. I don't use DU's "ignore" function, even for the occasional RW dumbass bigot who posts here on DU,and simply said that ignoring dittoheads was wiser than, as Barney Frank put it, "trying to have a discussion with a dining room table." When you grow up, learn to read.

2. You ask what might be a legitimate question about what I meant by 'controlled', but apparently didn't read well enough to see I actually said "your controllers in your media." The fact that you get suckered by professional propagandists is no reason to be ashamed. Lots of decent people fall for advertising campaigns of all sorts.

3. The fact is that you defend your ignorance and bigotry, however lamely, instead of questioning those in power who manipulate you and play you for a fool. Well, that's your choice. You also have a responsibility to think and learn if you can. If you don't or can't, well, that's sad.

4. The above was said on the chance that you have a slight bit of compassion for those who are being brutalized and/or half an ounce of intellectual honesty. The odds, based on your posts so far, are against me, but maybe asking you to look and think and even regard Palestinians as human is a goal you can accept and even accomplish if you seriously consider it instead of just playing the part of the dog in Pavlov's experiments.

[pelsar]

16. i guess making assumptions makes it easier for you....

your first assumption is that my knowledge is based on

professional propagandists

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume whereas i have been to the westbank settlements, gaza city, sederot, hebron, etc etc etc...you've probably never have.

meaning between you and me, only one of us has actually any real experience within the conflict and the other one only knows from reading what other people write about.

The fact is that you defend your ignorance and bigotry,
hmmm again with questioning my knowledge...see above for the basis for my knowledge

The odds, based on your posts so far, are against me, but maybe asking you to look and think and even regard Palestinians as human
once again we are faced with some reality...one of us actually has worked with Palestenians, looked them in the eye, seen their faces, the pain, frustrations, etc.....and one us probably never has....one of us knows they are human by virtue of real experiences with them.

Over the years because of my experiences my opinion has changed....not by any professional propagandist or by any particular govt as per your claims ...but by my own experiences within the conflict. That may be a difficult concept for you.

i dont believe you can say the same can you?...guess which one of us is being manipulated by the the "controllers"?....the one with real experience in the field or the other?...the one who has never been?
____

so whats our conclusion?...it should be obvious. My knowledge which is experienced base has formed my opinion.....its obviously an opinion that you disagree with and because of your lack of tolerance for others, your immediately attack my opinion, make up stuff that you claim i believe in and finally claim i'm being manipulated. tsk tsk tsk

that of course is the irony of it....you really should get out more, learn that people really are different, can have different opinions......and one day you might learn to respect them/us......it will however require an open mind, respect for the other and appreciation that our differences of opinion and views are to be celebrated not despised as per your posts....

[pelsar]

18. so disappointing.....not unexpected but i was hoping for better....

i guess the essence of your posts are that i am ignorant and simply a product of a sophisticated ad campaign (suckered to use your words)...whereas you can see through the propaganda to see the truth.

the only problem with that argument and the argument that you seem to have a problem answering is that my opinion is actually based on real life experiences with Palestinians and israelis "on the ground" as well as writing from all sides of the political spectrum, whereas yours i believe is based on someone elses writings and only those with a specific point of view (or so i understand from your writings)

so the question is how can you possibly call my opinion ignorant when i actually have far more information on the conflict than you and information that is not based on someone else opinion?

I doubt you'll answer, since most of your posts are based on my "ignorance" a claim, if one uses the dictionary definition, is rather absurd.

If you do answer, i believe, to justify your claims your going to have to modify the definition of the word "ignorance"...which would fit in with the concept of "the ends justifies the means" type of philosophy. newspeak so to speak

of course we'll never know will we...since you wont be answering this......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Pelsar, why not address the content of the post, rather than focus on the inclusion of TWO WORDS

which you use a pretext to side skirt the issue and derail the conversation with a bunch of nonsense?

You did nothing to effectively negate Cons' main point.

Care to address it?

[pelsar]

21. her point is as far as i understand is that i am ignorant

and have "drunk the koolaid" so to speak. That belief gives her the ability to dismiss any argument i may have as being nonsense and her having "the truth". as she so clearly stated.

so until its understood that my knowledge, is actually based on real information and that my opinion, which may or may not be agreed to, is at least respected, its clear there is little to discuss.

and of course it would be interesting to learn just where her info is from.....
____________________________
tell me, you dont find her attitude disturbing?...her incredible lack of tolerance to any other opinion? her gross generalizations of complete groups (all conservatives are liars)

....doesn't anybody here see how such attitudes are incredibly destructive to a society?...
Im quite surprised that nobody here is letting such an intolerant attitude pass...or is this a case of using her as one of those "useful idiotes"....
___________________________

and since when have i ever avoided any question......or skipped an issue when I was requested of me an answer?....what are you asking my opinion of? (but do answer my previous question about her attitude)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Nonsense. The point you originally addressed was that all conveyors of news have a POV.

You turned this about yourself in a way that seems like your intention was to sideline real discussion.

Bottom line: you and Obie both worked hard to obscure the point of the OP... the murder of yet another Palestinian kid.

[pelsar]

23. i found her dismissing manner quite interesting- suckered by the media?

i find the way she dismissed my knowledge and experience and the lack of response by the various posters here to her accusations far more interesting than that actual post, if that is what your referring to.

now your turn
as i asked previously.....what is your opinion about her lack of tolerance? is it acceptable in your view?

woud you accept someones dismissing your experience in gaza by someone who has never even seen the place? and claim that your view is "controlled by the media"...would you?

____


whats your question...and shall answer it....anything.....i don't have to "obscure" any killing....it happened and i don't know all of the details, nor have i actually read much about this particular incident, the environment, the actual actions etc

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. I'd rather discuss the kid who was murdered.

[pelsar]

25. we can do both....or is this a case of...

you would rather not "hurt" a "supporter"...even though her attitude only hardens mine.....and i believe the conflict solution needs mine to be flexible a lot more than it needs hers.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. The views of American bystanders really influences how you view the way your country treats the

people of Palestine?

[pelsar]

27. definitely.....

all of those mindless anti semetic/anti israeli/ biased/ anti colonialist/ one sided attacks on israel in the world press etc all have a direct affect on how we view our own security.......and we are also very aware how the arab and western world affects how the Palestinians react toward us....

one one hand you want american pressure on israel...and now your opening sentence is "american bystanders".....i go with the first. Solutions lie with facing reality as it is, not as you wish it to be.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Any thoughts on the dead kid? nt

[pelsar]

31. i dont know the real circumstances...thats all

i:ve seen Palestinians kids, aged 15-16 carrying weapons, playing near the border fences.....they ve been caught carrying bombs, etc....so whether they were innocent kids running after dogs in an open area near the border, or preparing to to try to kill israelis i dont know....

its just part of the everyday cat and mouse *game* that goes along on the border on a daily basis. Sometimes kids are just kids and other times they arent, and its not aways easy to tell the difference.

of course there is the whole concept of kids getting killed period, which in itself is bad......actions by the border are known to hamas to be very sensitive, since some of them tend to try to kill israelis, and we dont know at this stage which are hamas approved and which arent....hence my response is one of *i really dont know the real circumstances*


====

now your turn.....are you of the kind that believes she helps your cause?........i noticed you dont seem to want to answer....why not?...just takes a single sentence.

[pelsar]

33. your wrong ...so wrong....and it only makes thing worse....

its been an eye opener for me with you and the posters here.... for the lack of response from this little community.

For the I/P conflict to have a solution its been generally agreed upon that the stereotypes must be put aside....and yet i have been attacked by precisely that type of mentality. Few who post here have any real experience in the conflict, and i would think or like to believe that those experiences and impressions are actually quite important to one knowledge base..or perhaps i am wrong-perhaps you and others don't like reading what i write and just prefer a forum of "cheerleaders"

I realize that most of us leave the little "poster to poster skirmishes to ones own, though when the extremists come in, they seem to be tossed out by those on both sides of the line, In this particular case i actually invited comments/reactions from other posters and receive nada....

ConsareLiars is precisely the kind of person neither of us can afford and I admit I thought that was obvious to all here.... I was wrong wasn't i? Her gross generalization (con are liars?..isn't that the same thing as "if your not with us your against us?). Just the fact that she called me "ignorant" 'suckered by professional propagandists"....do you really think that those kind of people help your cause?

i react to those comments, as do all israelis......this is not pre 1948/30/20 where our opinions have no meaning and can be dismissed, i would think you've figured that out by now. Our opinions and concerns have direct affects on the Palestinians and the region.....make fun of us, ignore us, dismiss us, demonize us----its doesnt lead to good consequences. I know its great have little cheerleaders on the side, but this stuff is real.....with real consequences.

You don't need those kind of people....I'm just surprised that you seem to support her...by your refusal to react (and that includes others here as well)


on the side, if anybody came and called you ignorant, etc, i would have spoken up, without even being asked. Your experiences and reactions are essential to understanding the problem which leads to solution, trying to shut you down, reduce your knowledge to "be irrelevant" is counterproductive.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. I didn't read this sub-thread until now...

I realize that most of us leave the little "poster to poster skirmishes to ones own, though when the extremists come in, they seem to be tossed out by those on both sides of the line, In this particular case i actually invited comments/reactions from other posters and receive nada....

fwiw, I strongly disagree with anyone who labels you ignorant, and to be honest I'm sick of people on both sides in this forum rushing to label other posters as being propagandists. When it comes to yr controllers in the media, I don't understand what that's about at all and thought it was a bit weird. Is it like having an agent? Can these controllers be used in my quest to destroy any traces of reality tv, especially Survivor and Beauty & The Geek?

Of course I also disagree with anyone who labels you a bigot, but I've based my opinion on having known you at DU for a few years and sometimes I think people are a bit quick to judge (unless it's a fan of Greater Israel like there is in another thread right now and then not much time is required to figure out what they are). While you and I disagree on a fair bit when it comes to the conflict and bickered constantly when we first met, I grew to respect the experience that posters like you and PM have which most of the rest of us don't have, and I've found yr a pretty damn decent and honest sort of person. If I had read this sub-thread before now, I more than likely wouldn't have popped up to say anything, mainly because my silence doesn't mean I agree with someone who's having a go at you, and I'd hate to set a precedent where I'd have you on tap to kick the arse of anyone who says something nasty to me in a post, coz that'd be a nearly full-time job at times. If I'm on the spot and read an attack on you that's really crossed the line in the sand, I'll definately speak up...

[pelsar]

35. i was surprised.....

for the most part on this little forum there is quite a bit knowledge on the conflict....i always felt that if anything whether one agrees with me or not, i'm adding just a bit more of real info, or additional info to the general knowledge base...as well as picking up some as well. Its a messy conflict where many of us (me) have conflicting opinions between the ideal and the reality and i've found my opinions and views changed with time.... I've also caught religion....the one of tolerance for the other....and that is a direct result of this forum, far more than i had before. (in fact its the one thing i'm trying to instill in my "young socialistic son".....a little more tolerance for the "unbelievers."---this is on the side: His socialistic youth group, meets with a religious youth group, where they discuss things to bridge the gaps, each trying to convince the other to the change their way of life, but at least they do meet).

In this one incident i think the poster crossed an invisible line....its not a matter of disagreeing with me, but declaring my knowledge irrelevant/ ignorant because she disagreed with my opinion or view. The other accusations were more humorous -controlled by the media etc. but its really a dangerous mindset.

which is why i asked PM several times to comment. It doesn't make a difference my political viewpoint as much as ignoring my knowledge. To declare a participant in the conflict as ignorant or a victim of the media, is to put blinders on....and i can't think of anything more dangerous that accepting the concept that only opinions/info that is related to a very specific-narrow political viewpoint is acceptable and if it doesn't fit, it should not just be ignored but declared ignorant.

[oberliner]

9. This source acted as if they were quoting the PCHR report

They literally removed one word from a direct quote from the PCHR report and replaced it with a different word.

If the source had included the actual quote from the PCHR report and then made an editorial comment suggesting that they disagree with the characterization from the report of the people being "arrested" and think instead that they were "abducted" then that would be a fair illustration of what you are describe.

However, to simply change the words of a report in an apparent citation of said source to be more in line with the opinion of the people running the website is exceedingly dishonest.

I do agree with your point about the PCHR report itself being more direct than many of the spin-filled news article one reads surrounding this conflict. I do feel, however, that it is worth checking into the details of this incident if indeed other corroborating or contradictory evidence is available.

I would argue that many people would have a different reaction to a 14 or 15 year old Palestinian youth who was chasing dogs or birds being shot by the IDF than to a 22 year old Palestinian adult who was planting an explosive device at the Israeli border.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Here's a link to PCHR's weekly report...

I remember a long while ago when one of the posters here used to post it as a new thread each week. I'd start the tradition up again myself, but I'm afraid all the exploding heads over PCHR's use of the term IOF would make things far too messy...

http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2008/19-11-2009.htm

[ConsAreLiars]

6. Thanks for the direct link - it's a must-read for anyone who wants to be more than half-way

informed about what is actually happening in the region sometimes called Israel or Palestine or both. I explained why I chose to use the more partisan summary in my reply above (#4).

[oberliner]

10. I agree with you there

The PCHR website is a good, though not comprehensive, source of information.

[ConsAreLiars]

12. Do you understand that one point of the post

was to point out the fact that while Palestinians have not killed nor abducted/arrested any Israelis in the past several months, Israel's government and individual citizens have committed these actions against Palestinians on a regular basi?

Do you get it that I used an article that displayed the real meaning and emotional impact of those actions for the subjugated population because that is an important part of the whole truth?

(edit to replace one word and delete a typo)

[oberliner]

17. I get what you are coming from

Still, however, I think your argument would be strengthened even further if the source in question made an effort to present all of the information available about the incidents in question. In doing so, they may, in fact, help demonstrate that the Israeli explanation is full of holes, if, indeed, it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. No worries. I don't think you needed to explain to the other poster about the source...

After all, they've posted from the same source in the past and only complain about its reliability as a source if it's criticism of Israel. It does get tiring to see the nonstop attempts to detract from the main issues by focusing on any discrepancy no matter how minute, all the while ignoring the fact that there's discrepancies in everything, not just things that are critical of Israel...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Any comments on the dead Palestinian kid?

The six injured THIS WEEK alone?

[oberliner]

28. Are you sure the dead Palestinian was a kid?

How do you account for the discrepancy in the age listed by different sources as indicated about?

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Until you prove otherwise, it's very reasonable to assume they were...

Do you actually have any proof at all? If not, it's probably time to give it a rest before it starts to look too inappropriate...

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Does the exact age matter?

The fact is that the RW Israeli state and and the settlers they encourage and support are killing Palestinians on a regular basis with impunity and the IDF and state police routinely grab/abduct/arrest/beat Palestinians of all ages and lock them up for days or years with no charges and no trial. If some foreign nation did this to Israelis, we'd all be outraged, but when it is done to Palestinians, it seems only some of us are.

Others celebrate that brutality using the same kill-em-all "reasoning" the US right wing dumbasses, cowards and psychopaths apply to anyone they fear.

Others don't care and and out of partisan loyalties just just try to divert the discussion of what is actually happening away from the significance of yet one more killing and abduction by nit-picking about trivial and irrelevant details that somebody somewhere said were inaccurate.

(edit to add a fair bit.)