Naalin: Protestors say IDF using live fire

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Two anti-fence protestors injured in West Bank claim soldiers fired at them with banned Ruger rifles

Ali Waked


Two Palestinians were injured Friday at the weekly anti-fence protest in the West Bank village of Naalin.

The protestors claim Israeli security forces have reinstated the use of Ruger rifles, which have been
deemed live fire by the military prosecution. The IDF confirmed the use of the rifles, which can be used to fire live ammunition with relatively low force.


Earlier this year B'tselem appealed to the military prosecution with a demand to ban the rifles. Judge Advocate General Avi Mandelblit said in his response to the appeal that "the guidelines for use of this ammunition are severe, and parallel to those for the use of live ammunition".


In June a Palestinian was killed during an anti-fence protest in Naalin, assumedly from ammunition fired from a Ruger rifle. Four additional Palestinians were injured in the incident.


Meanwhile Friday afternoon 150 left-wing activists and Palestinians protested in the West Bank village of Bil'in, among them three MKs from the Hadash Party...

read on...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3804795,00.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. Why would the IDF use live fire on nonviolent protestors?

[theoldman]

2. Because they can, that's why.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Where does it say the protestors were non-violent?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. Is pulling down the wall violent? Good thing East Germans weren't as harsh as the Israelis.

Medic among two hurt by live fire in Nil'in
Published yesterday (updated) 14/11/2009 17:21
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Click image to enlarge or see more photos from Friday
Bethlehem - Ma'an - Israeli forces used live fire on Palestinian demonstrators protesting Israel's separation barrier in the West Bank village of Nil'in on Friday, activists said and the military confirmed.

Rumors had been circulating that the Israelis would respond more harshly than usual due to the activists' success in pulling down a section of the wall at the Qalandiya military checkpoint a week earlier.

"These rumors were confirmed," said Ibraheem Amera, coordinator of the Nil'in popular committee. "A huge army of Israeli soldiers was awaiting and immediately started fire huge amounts of tear gas, rubber coated steel bullets and also live ammunition."

Amera said the popular committee had warned protesters to be extra cautious on Friday, because he believed a "decision was made by the Israeli military, because in Nil'in the wall has been taken down twice already by the people, and after the fall of the wall in Qalandiya, the Israeli military is afraid that the 'Nil'in falling wall virus' will start to spread throughout the whole West Bank."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=239581

[oberliner]

5. Is throwing a rock at a police officer violent?

One Border Police officer was lightly hurt in Friday's clash when he was hit by a rock. He was given preliminary treatment at the scene and later taken to a hospital.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258027285961&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I know we've discussed this before, but I would argue that throwing rocks at the police would not constitute part of a non-violent protest.

[shira]

6. throw a rock at any officer in the USA....try to claim that's non-violent, see what happens

i'd like to know what happens to any proponent of "non-violent rockthrowing" if they were to try that in their hometown.

[azurnoir]

7. so rock throwing justifies using live fire? n/t

[oberliner]

13. Not what I was saying or asking

Can you call something a non-violent protest if the protesters are throwing rocks at policeman?

That is the question I am asking. My response is that you cannot.

[azurnoir]

15. Yes rock throwing it could be called violent

however does it justify using live fire in return?

[oberliner]

16. I don't think it does (in response to your question) nt

[Behind the Aegis]

8. So, it doesn't say the protestors were non-violent? You made it up?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. The reports I saw did not mention violence, and one was Israeli. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

10. But the reports don't say it was non-violent, only you do.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. I consider the weekly wall protests nonviolent. I am certainly not alone in that characterization.

I do not assume there is violence anytime 2 Palestinians get together. I do not assume violence in the absence of reports of violence.

Why do you assume violence?

[Behind the Aegis]

20. I didn't assume anything. You did.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Wrong. You did. I went by the reports, from both Arab and Israeli press that did not mention

any rock throwing or other violence.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Do look up the word "assume."

You ASSUMED the protest was non-violent. You ASSUMED that no mention of violence means "non-violence."

I never assumed a thing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Let's re-focus. Human beings are protesting an apartheid wall. The IDF is shooting live ammo at

them. If you believe that is appropriate, that's your choice, though I'd say most would disagree with you.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Let's get back ON TOPIC. There is NO mention of the protest being non-violent, as you ASSUME.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

41. I have yet to see a piece in an Israeli newspaper that failed to

mention Palestinian violence when it was present, especially in the context of the IDF firing living ammo.

I do not ASSUME there is violence if it is not reported. You clearly do.

Do please continue to dig your own silly-hole.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Failed to look up "assume?"

Clearly you assume what ever fits your narrative and "facts." I made no assumption one way or the other, that was you. AS a matter of fact, you have made several assumptions in this sub-thread. A little help for you: Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. So...anything to avoid discussing the IDF shooting live ammo at human beings?

What do you think of that practice BTA?

Do you believe protestors who are not engaging in violence should be shot at?

[Ken Burch]

44. You just got a prime example of Aegisism at its...er...best?

It's all about finding a tiny point and hammering on it endlessly to derail for the sake of derailing.

Aegis knows you didn't make it up. He'll never admit it, but he knows.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

52. I simply pointed out what you do

You repeat one thing over and over, even when it doesn't matter(like your silly repetition of the "strawman" canard). You know perfectly well the poster you were sparring with didn't make it up, and that the distinction you were making about how pure the protest had to be to count as nonviolent was a meaningless one, because even a few rocks doesn't justify firing live rounds into a crowd.

Your response to this is simply another attempt to bait. You were caught out in an annoying and pointless tactic.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. And I simply pointed out your MO...logical fallacies, notably, strawmen.

You simply lack the ability to understand an actual fact when it is placed in front of you. But, that is your issue not mine. Your response was nothing more than a pathetic personal attack, another one of your MO.

[Ken Burch]

65. You never PLACE actual facts before me, or anyone else

All you ever do is insinuate and heckle. Debate means actually addressing what's being discussed. You never do that. And you weren't doing that with PM. And you falsely accused her of making something up.
You owe her an apology.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Because you don't recognize the facts, doesn't mean they haven't been presented.

I am owed the apology...from you! I am owed for your arrogant remarks, continued logical fallacies, and your continuation to make up things about me, my views, my motives and my positions.

[Scurrilous]

50. He's playing a game...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=316&topic_id=1574&mesg_id=1588">...of cat and mouse.

And it's fun!!1!

Why people continue to engage him in this nonsense beyond me.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. Wow. you are able to actually post something other than an article.

I am so honored.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. I'm sure there will be a circle-jerk over at his hate site.

6 Days bitch! Ya baby!

[Behind the Aegis]

60. What will happen at your hate site?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. What hate site does PM post at?

I hate to jump into the middle of this heated 'debate, but I'm not aware of anywhere else sle posts except for here and at Richard's and my forum. I hope yr not trying to label either of those places as being hate sites as here most definately isn't, and my site has a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bigotry of any type....

[Ken Burch]

67. Unlike you, she doesn't HAVE a hate site

n/t.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Still under the illusion your assumption is correct?

So now you go from assumption of facts to conflating? Not a huge jump in your quest for logical fallacies.

[Ken Burch]

53. There's no good reason for you to keep mindlessly repeating the "assume" thing

You haven't discredited PM's argument. There was no reason to fire live rounds into a crowd.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

54. Weird, huh? One hates to quit, because this dude will think he bested you somehow.

How do you argue with a nut?

[Behind the Aegis]

59. I am sure you ask yourself that often in the mirror.

It is called projection and lazy personal attacks.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

58. More straw? Surprise! **snicker**

Do try to keep up and avoid the use of logical fallacies.

[Ken Burch]

66. No straw

It wasn't straw to say that you're wrong to keep smearing PM with the "Assume" canard. You KNOW she didn't make anything up.

You aren't entitled to take this tone with people here.

[Behind the Aegis]

68. More straw? Again? Really?

Straw man

I am "entitled" to many things, including responding to nonsense, fabrications, propaganda, and/or anything I feel merits (or not) a response.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

71. Vanquish away! It's quite clear that you have no point to make. nt

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

64. So what hate site does PM post at? n/t

[Ken Burch]

72. None. It's a typical Aegis slander.

n/t.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. The IDFhas always engaged in violence, so extreme violence is no surprise n/t

[Jim Sagle]

12. That's what armies do. Duh!

[Violet_Crumble]

14. I get it now! It's okay for armies to be extremely violent, but not for protesters to throw stones!

Thanks for clearing that one up!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. It's one of the ironies of this conflict: a violent, lethal military occupier which paints its

victims as the source of violence, and itself as the victim.

Go figure.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Yeah, it gets a bit nauseating after a while n/t

[Jim Sagle]

19. The question is not whether it's OK but whether it's the norm.

It's the norm that armies are violent and that protesttors who throw stones get shot.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Only in the shining democracry of the Middle East. nt

[Jim Sagle]

26. Google is your friend.

Google

"demonstrators were shot" -israel -palestine

and you'll get 314,000 hits.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Jim, if you think there is no problem with shooting live ammo at people

demonstrating Israel's apartheid wall, then you have to live with that.

[proteus_lives]

56. Yeah, only if they would behead or stone them to death.

Like in all the shining Muslim states.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Since when is something justifiable by using the exuse it's the norm?

That's no excuse...

[Jim Sagle]

27. No excuse to pretend it's not the norm either.

No excuse to single out one nation for doing what nations do.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. It's not the norm in my country and you are using it as an excuse

There's lots of things that are the norm in the I/P conflict and doesn't stop people speaking out against them happening. In the case of Palestinians being shot by the IDF, it's a completely different matter...

[Jim Sagle]

29. No, I'm not excusing it, I'm insisting on one standard for all.

There's lots of things that are the norm in the I/P conflict and doesn't stop people speaking out against them happening.

But when they happen anywhere else, there's usually a deafening silence.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. So we should apply the same standard to civilians as to the military? I don't think so!

No, there's not a deafening silence when things happen elsewhere. It's that yr sitting in the I/P forum and totally fixated on the I/P conflict and don't notice...

btw, there's no deafening silence when it comes to that happening here because as I said in the post you replied to, it doesn't happen, and I suspect Australia's not alone in that regard...

[Jim Sagle]

31. Your replies get less honest as you go along.

So we should apply the same standard to civilians as to the military? I don't think so!

Neither do I. What I think is that we should apply the same standard to one nation as to another.

No, there's not a deafening silence when things happen elsewhere.

Actually there is, and everybody goddamn well knows it.

It's that yr sitting in the I/P forum and totally fixated on the I/P conflict and don't notice...

That's a lie and a projection. I'm not the one who hardly posts anywhere else. It's my feeling this folder should be shitcanned, as it attracts webclowns from all over who care nothing about America's politics. How fixated is that?

You got nuthin', as usual.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. I'm not the dishonest one here...

No-one's stopping you from applying the same standard to one nation as another. I'm not sure why you think you should divert attention away from Israel by claiming other countries do it too...

Oh, bullshit. Stop trying to speak on behalf of everyone. Yr as crap at mindreading as you are at trying to insult peole. There's only what appears to be a 'deafening silence' to you because you can't stand the sight of Israel being criticised at all...

Keep on trollin' Jimbo...

[Jim Sagle]

33. Yep, time for this folder to close up shop. Ain't nuthin' goin' on but the rent.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Do you think if you say it three times and click yr heels, it might happen?

But glad you could find time in yr busy schedule to drop in and give a display of yr desire to stifle peoples opinions about the conflict here at DU...

[Ken Burch]

47. Because you can't tolerate ANY dissent against Israeli security policies.

And it's sickening to imply that speaking up for an oppressed people could "tear this party apart".

YOU should be calling for the Israeli government to dismantle all West Bank settlements. That would do more to protect Israel than a million IDF tanks.

[shaayecanaan]

40. You know, thats exactly what the South Africans said...

after the Sharpeville Massacre.

[Ken Burch]

46. With this crowd it's "Everything OUR side does is allowed-nothing THEIR side does is. Ever.".

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

45. You'd have been ok with Macarthur opening fire on the Bonus Army?

After all "That's what armies do. Duh!"

And I'm pretty sure at least some of the Bonus Army people defended themselves.

[shira]

37. why aren't they using the foul-smelling spray?

IDF uses 'skunk bomb' in Bi'lin demo
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443776613&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

Since the beginning of the year, more than 100 soldiers and border policemen have been wounded, some of them seriously, during the anti-fence demonstrations.

Non-violent, peaceful protesting?

:eyes:

Regardless, I want to know why they feel they need to use live fire.

[Scurrilous]

38. IDF Chief Rabbi: Troops who show mercy to enemy will be 'damned'

<snip>

"Brig. Gen. Avichai Rontzki also told the yeshiva students that religious individuals made better combat troops.

Speaking Thursday at the Hesder yeshiva in the West Bank settlement of Karnei Shomron , Rontzki referred to Maimonides' discourse on the laws of war. That text quotes a passage from the Book of Jeremiah stating: "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the Lord with a slack hand, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

In Rontzki's words, "In times of war, whoever doesn't fight with all his heart and soul is damned - if he keeps his sword from bloodshed, if he shows mercy toward his enemy when no mercy should be shown."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1128144.html