'Israel has different laws for Arab and Jewish youth'

[Violet_Crumble]

The Nazareth Magistrate's Court on Wednesday dismissed a case against an Arab youth who was charged with attacking a police vehicle near Nazareth during the Gaza offensive earlier this year.

Judge Yuval Shedmi said in his ruling that, "Israel is working on two fundamentally different enforcement levels in relation to crimes perpetrated by minors."

The court ruled that the youth must sign a bond worth NIS 5,000, which states that he will refrain from perpetrating violent activities against police over the next two years, as well as perform 200 hours of community service.

The court also banned the youth from getting a driver's license for two years.

The Arab teenager was arrested a week after Operation Cast Lead began in Gaza. A police vehicle traveling along the road leading from Moshav Tzipori in the north to Nazareth was forced off the road when he and several of his friends hurled rocks at the passing car.

The prosecutor insisted on charging him for intentionally endangering civilians, and pressed for the youth to receive a prison sentence saying "the case must be used as an example to deter further behavior in this nature."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127450.html

[yurbud]

1. the judge gets it--you can't have separate and unequal laws. either the Palestinians are citizens

of Israeli territory or they are a separate nation that shouldn't have Israeli military vehicle patrolling their streets.

When you set up an apartheid system, you do physical harm to those place at the bottom, but moral harm to those placed at the top.

[fascisthunter]

2. uh oh... you said "apartheid"

and I totally agree

[Ken Burch]

3. ""the rockets...the rockets...the rockets...the rockets...the rockets...the rockets...."

"...That's all that matters...the rockets...the rockets...the rockets..."

(just summarizing the responses this is going to get.)

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

4. worth they're weight in gold they are n/t

[pelsar]

6. you too?

interesting reactions here......but i do enjoy the honesty...takes a long long time for it to come out...its usually cloaked

[azurnoir]

8. so just what in your mind has been uncloaked?

whether or not you like it the simple fact is that the rockets have been a propagada goldmine for what passes these days as ProIsrael

[pelsar]

9. call it whatever you like......

an article that shows how within an open society, a judge corrects a wrong in the society.....

and your response basically is to agree with someone who prefers to constantly demonizes israelis and the israeli society (and just makes up facts).....where this article exists...

i dont need a label, but the uncloaking is always fun to see...

[azurnoir]

10. actually it was you doing the calling so to speak

good on the judge in this case but the question remains on a broader scale just how much was changed

[pelsar]

11. i was "calling out"...the reactions to a judges call

that were not just irrelevant to the judges reaction, or even to the article....but was straightforward demonization of israel and those who support israeli policies.....

perhaps calling it intolerance for other opinions is a nice description

[azurnoir]

16. Is that what what it was

as to demonaization which is the recent term for criticism of Israel and those who support its policies you are partially right but most unfortunately not in the part you would prefer "demonization" of Israel's policies is not the same as "demonization" of Israel or of Israeli's
Just as "demomization" of America's policies is not the same as "demonization" of America or Americans

[pelsar]

18. yep thats what it was....

There is quite the difference between critizing an israeli policy and making up something or deciding that the dictionary definition of words doesnt apply to israel, or geography no longer applies- a common occurrence here.


when one criticizes the IDF for targeting civilians...it may be hard for americans to understand, but the iDF is not some monolithic entitiy....its citizens of israel. A citizen a solider is checking targets, making decisions and pulling the trigger....

when one claims that the IDF is genocidal...it mean my neighbor, my kid, my friend is being accused......and of course the accusations are nothing more than BS...hence the demonization.

[azurnoir]

21. who claimed IDF was genocidal?

no one that I have seen here. Are you seriously claiming that any accusation against IDF is demonization because most Israelis are "citizen soldiers"? Being that IDF is so very personal only speaks to a lack of objectivity on the part of its supporters not a lack of honesty on the part of its critics

[pelsar]

22. i assume your kidding......

the genocidal, ghetto, starving, targeting civilians is rather standard fair around here.... (not specific to this thread if that is what you are referring to).

i am claiming that broad generalizations, or fantasy claims (such as a pilot would not drop a bomb because the PR would be difficult, Palestinians dying at checkpoints, because the israeli soldiers have no compassion (it being the rule as opposed to the exception). The standard targeting of civilians. The idea that IDF soldiers simply don't make mistakes... every civilian killed was targeted. etc

those are the demonizations......criticism that is based on reality is something else. Opening and closing checkpoints, the partial blockade, the use of artillery, helicopter assisinations are all fair game as they are based on policy decisions.....


claim a soldier in a tank targeting a person holding what can be discerned as an anti tank weapon, is targeting civilians is simply demonization, since its pretty clear that nobody here would have any idea what the soldiers in the tank saw via their telescopes....

[stranger81]

48. Interesting. Your original statement, however, wasn't that "broad generalizations"

or "fantasy claims" were demonization . . . it was that criticism of any content whatsoever is demonization if leveled against the IDF. Sorry, but the IDF isn't immune from legitimate criticism simply because most Israelis spend some time serving in it.

[shira]

50. but you think Goldstone's conclusions constitute fair criticism of the IDF

here's the former editor of Haaretz, part of Israel's left who begged Condy Rice to 'rape Israel' a couple years ago....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x287828#293540

If you don't think the Goldstone report is demonization, then you really don't know what demonization is.

[azurnoir]

51. Actually your right

kind of

the genocidal, ghetto, starving, targeting civilians is rather standard fair around here.... (not specific to this thread if that is what you are referring to).

i am claiming that broad generalizations, or fantasy claims (such as a pilot would not drop a bomb because the PR would be difficult, Palestinians dying at checkpoints, because the israeli soldiers have no compassion (it being the rule as opposed to the exception). The standard targeting of civilians. The idea that IDF soldiers simply don't make mistakes... every civilian killed was targeted. etc

your point being? I seem to remember a poster or posters who feel quite plainly that the punishment dealt out to the Palestinians are deserved and justified because a few "try to kill Israeli's" there are broad generalizations all around on this board wouldn't you say?

those are the demonizations......criticism that is based on reality is something else. Opening and closing checkpoints, the partial blockade, the use of artillery, helicopter assisinations are all fair game as they are based on policy decisions.....

only when those generalizations are applied to IDF apparently do you seem to find fault, curious that

claim a soldier in a tank targeting a person holding what can be discerned as an anti tank weapon, is targeting civilians is simply demonization, since its pretty clear that nobody here would have any idea what the soldiers in the tank saw via their telescopes....

so tell me Pelsar do you know what was seen by the tank charged with doing the sighting? Note here that the Merkava 4 tanks have state of the art optical systems that are a bit more sophisticated than mere telescopes and work in pairs with one doing the sighting and the other doing the firing. Did they purposely target civilians or were they a couple of teenagers ready for some action who were a bit quick to the trigger?

what is to me quite over all revealing is that "ProIsrael" posters who were once able to criticize the Israeli government when the more centrist Kadima was in power now seem to back up the hard line Likud government

[pelsar]

65. the generalizations are necessary.....

when talking about societies...as well as their subgroups.....

i object to broad generalizations when there is more than enough evidence to the contrary, thats how i would define demonization...

as fars as the Merkava goes.....actually i do know something about them and also the environment and the communications.....and what a camera/anti tank weapon looks like while pointed at you from the bushes

i get the impression that you and others dont .....so given that you really really dont know, why would you even insist that you do know?
how do you even know that the two tanks working in tandem were even working in tandem that day?....was there a communication problem could tank two even see the camera?....i'm amazed that you actually believe you know what happened within the tanks crews heads, their communications etc. Thats an excellent example of demonization. You have no real knowledge of the actual environment, the communications, the crews, situation and you assume the crew knew it was as newsman with camera peering through the bushes....

and just for your general knowledge..."state of the art " optical systems require a human to interpret what they're looking at- ie. a judgment.

[azurnoir]

84. so "generalizations" also known as sterotyping are neccesary

when "societies" or subgroups in this case Palestinians but when questioning an incident and that incident happens to involve Israel it is "demonization" I understand but it does seem a double standard

[pelsar]

90. we definitly have to stereotype to a degree...

i would hope that when i write about the Palestinians or israelis i am consistent.....

however, as per one example: jihadnikim and friends have made it clear that they do in fact target civilians as policy whereas the IDF not just in words but in actual deeds does not as a matter of policy.

so i believe i can make generalizations in that respect when writing about them.

are there examples of me demonizing the Palestinians that i am not aware of....feel free to "call me out " if i do.

[Ken Burch]

13. I think the judge did the right thing. No disrespect to the judge.

You know perfectly well how the rockets are used as a verbal bludgeon. My comment was directed at the response that was sure to come up in this thread, not at the judge. I support all those in Israel who stand up for what's right. It's YOU that mock them.

[pelsar]

17. and i disagree.....i think you dont like that the rockets because they exposed the hypocrisy...

and its hard for many to accept that..hence your attempts to mock the damage, and the terrorism that the kassams do......

and you mock those who have lived under 6 years of daily terrorism- you tell me why..is it because they are short people?

it also exposed the fallacy of the land for peace belief
it exposed the fallacy of the- israel must make a grand gesture first
it exposed the fallacy of the israel must make the first move
it exposed that the definition of a war crime - is everything and anything israel has tried to stop them......

it exposed the hypocrisy for those who care for the gazans yet refuse to accept that egypt has a whole border attached to gaza and can open it and give the gazans access, without getting shot at....so many prefer that israel must *pay*, and until that time, the gazans should suffer

gaza was not propaganda but clarity.....

and it has nothing to do with an israeli judge decision. BUT i sure understand why the rockets were so disturbing....they exposed a belief to be nothing more than a belief.

but the conclusion is clear.....israel for many should accept a certain amount of terrorism on a daily basis as payment for its existance and restrict its defense of its citizens to a minimum if any at all

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Pelsar, I'm going to ask you point blank.

You were born an American Jew, and chose to move to Israel and carry a gun.

If you were born Palestinian, what would you do?

[pelsar]

25. hopefully the samething...

i came to israel when it was already established and the really really hard stuff was already done.....going to the westbank as a Palestinian (i would avoid gaza at this point) would take a lot of guts and belief....

the gun thing however isn't working out, so i would like to think i would go planning on adding something else to the cause while understanding that i'm going to get shit from the israelis...but that i would be strong enough in belief to take it....


let me make it clear....violence has its uses and purposes...the gaza withdrawl was a result of the kassams (of which i m glad it happened), but it was only because of the kassams. And if the PA and friends would limit their violence to the westbank i and others wouldnt be so.......sooo (i'm trying to think of the proper PC word here....) upset?....

it would accomplish things.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. So you are saying the Kassams were effective at driving out the settlers from Gaza?

I am really not clear on what "hypocrisy" was exposed.

[pelsar]

27. definitely.....

a combo of the kassams, the attacks and sharons shrewdnesss to do the evacuation for the good of the country.

the"hypocrisy" is not aimed at the gazans...seriously i don't know anyone that didn't believe that hamas/pa wouldnt take advantage of israel leaving to shoot more rockets...though it would have been a nice surprise if they hadn't.

the hypocrisy is aimed at the progressive left
i shall summarize the mantra, before the gaza pullout
in order for there to be peace, israel, the stronger one must do the following to get things moving.....
make a grand gesture
make the first move
show good faith......
remove some settlements

____

well israel did all that with removing 6,000 settlers and destroying the settlements....after that the kassams really starting falling. Now, the israeli left which also had the same mantra....realized that they in fact were wrong. Doing those things in fact made things worse..now kassams were falling daily on israelis within the green line.

the progressive left, you might have noticed, has simply kept up the same mantra even though doing exactly that failed to not only produce peace but set up a series of events that led to hamas taking over gaza

....and still the progressive left chants the same mantra....

the hypocrisy part comes in, where there is this big noise about no freedom of movement, lack of materials etc that israel is responsible for violating many rules and laws with its blockade....and the nice progressives are really concerned about that...and during an occupation it was true. However with gaza, the blockade from israel is only 3/4. Egpt has a nice long border that can solve all of their economic/travel problems...all without getting shot at.

but what do we read about constantly?....that israel is blockading the Gazans. Almost nothing is written about the Egyptian option...why you may wonder, because if there is pressure on egypt to open the border and they do...israel is then not being "punished" for its sins...and thats not fair....and that is the hypocrisy.

if the concern was really for the Palestinians and just for their well fair, then there would be a lot of pressure on Egypt to open its border and let the Palestinians use their port..a mere 20km south. But there isn't any, is there.....hence the concern for the Palestinians is not so "clean" as its made out to be and includes an element of using the Palestinians to punish the israelis....only this time its from the western progressives and not the arab governments.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. The issue is not, was not, and should never be "how to stop kassams."

It's how to stop a 40-year occupation.

So unilateral withdrawl really wasn't the best answer to that problem, as the results showed.

Why can't Gazans use their own ports?

[pelsar]

34. long term and short term goals....

for israelis, daily attempts at killing us is a "no no".....and in our priority list, thats the biggest "issue". Obviously you can ignore our priority list and pretend, like many that it doesnt exist.

but thats not a very productive idea.....and that is why you dont understand why the gaza port is closed....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. how do you reconcile your view that you are entitled to basic human rights by virtue of your birth,

while someone like my brother-in-law in Khan Younis has to earn them? You're probably roughly the same age. On paper, he has more to offer the world in that he's better educated, and probably has a lot more to offer the world in terms of skills, abilities and much-needed knowledge and technical skills in a growth development area.

Why is it that you have the inherent right to be free, travel, receive visits from your family, educate your kids, sit and drink coffee, while he lives behind barbed wire like a prisoner in a concentration camp?

I guess what I'm asking is, how do you reconcile that view?

I'm wondering -- human to human -- how you make peace with that?

[pelsar]

41. collective punishment...its used world wide, everywhere....its a standard for human behavior

as a person on an individual level he deserves the complete human right package.....

unfortunately in the real world collective punishment is an everyday reality, be it taxes, countries with selective immigration rules, boycotts, etc.....Whereas he should have the right to walk out his door to a job in Tel Aviv, or Cairo, the actions of the PA and Hamas after caused gaza to be closed off.

incase you missed it, when the gates were open to israel a lot of normal looking, just going to work Palestinians attacked and killed Israelis. ...and i have no idea why in the world i have to mention this...is it not obvious?...preservation of human life takes precedent over freedom of movement.


what you keep on missing is a simple mantra...and if you remember it for every question you might understand the answer:

there is a consequence for every action (and the Palestinians do not get a free pass on this basic rule that controls societies, as you seem to believe) and collective "actions" (punishment, rewards etc) is how all societies deal with each other in the real world

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. ... and the consequence for 40-year violent military occupation is...?

unending US subsidies?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. FCOL Pelsar say it. Your rights matter because you have the bigger guns.

...today.

[pelsar]

46. you dont like the concept of responsibility do you?

all of your posts have the same basic message...that Palestinians can do whatever they want and their should be no consequences for their actions....because they are under the occupation

got a news flash..part of the reason that they are stll under an occupation is precisely that attitude....

as far as having bigger guns.....of course it matters, if we didn't israel wouldn't exist......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

54. My message is the opposite. You don't get to have your boot in the neck of a people for 40

years and live like you don't.

Some Islamist groups believe the repurcussion should include rockets.

I prefer international BDS and making Israel become the pariah state it deserves to be. I don't believe a single Israeli student should be allowed to attend an international university or that a single Israeli businessperson should be able to attend an international conference, for example.

[pelsar]

59. you dont get it......but its been educational....

the occupation has its costs.....the far greater cost has been to the Palestinians as opposed to israel (in case you didnt notice)....and i really don't see that changing in the near future. Come'on the world, especially the arabs world doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians.

btw, if the green revolution ever takes hold and oil is not longer needed, the lip service from the arab states will evaporate as well

[ProgressiveMuslim]

62. Too bad there isn't a victims' manual. You could share all the secrets of how to get a violent

military oppressor to cease and desist.

[pelsar]

47. the consequences

the consequence for a 40 yr old occupation is massive amounts of money and resources spent on it, constant attacks, moral ambiguity.....

and what are the consequences of ending it tomorrow?.....probably missiles and mortars on nearly every israeli city....perhaps a hamas/Iranian take over of the westbank....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. Interesting piece here in the Guardian that will insert facts back into the discussion:

Fragmenting Palestinian land


Twenty-one-year-old Palestinian student Berlanty Azzam was seized by Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint in the West Bank last month. Bound and blindfolded, she was forcibly deported to the Gaza Strip. Berlanty was in her final semester at Bethlehem University in the West Bank, and was returning from a job interview in Ramallah.

The problem was that she had an ID card registered in Gaza, and the Israeli occupation, in the words of the human rights organisation, B'tselem, "almost completely forbids the movement of Palestinians between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip".

Bethlehem university has had "continuous problems" getting Gaza students the requisite permission from Israel, according to communications officer Stephanie Rhodes.

"We are a Palestinian university and these are Palestinian students. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are supposed to be treated as one territorial unit, but that's not what's happening."

Rhodes was referring to how Israel's division of the Palestinian territories goes against its own recognition of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as "a single territorial unit" in previous agreements. This was also affirmed by the Israeli supreme court in 2002 as part of a justification for the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza. The court ruled that this did not violate international law because the two areas "should be regarded as one territory".

Restricting Palestinian students' freedom of movement has been just one element of Israeli measures that deepen the separation between the Gaza and the West Bank. While the bitter split between Fatah and Hamas has led some to talk about two different Palestinian "states", the physical division is one that Israel has created over a number of years.

From the start of the second intifada in 2000 to 2005, "travel from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank declined by 98%". This restriction was imposed in the name of security, though in most cases where there was an appeal, the decision to deny a permit was reversed. But the "disengagement plan" in summer 2005 marked a real sea change....

please read on...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/12/palestinian-land-west-bank-gaza

[ProgressiveMuslim]

75. No response, Pelsar? Not surprised.

[shira]

79. Ben White 'understands' antisemitism too...

http://seismicshock.blogspot.com/2008/12/does-ben-white-understand-antisemitism.html

[pelsar]

81. patience...will get to it....and why the surprise..

have i ever not answered a direct question .....ever?....just wanted to think about it

[pelsar]

87. dont be so surprised.....once again you "dont get it'

it appears that members of the israeli govt/IDF are "playing with the Palestenians".....i would suspect that part of it is a political, to further separate the westbank from gaza, part punishment for holding Shalit and part....just for the hell of it."

or

...the israeli govt is like many other govts..... Its has life time bureaucrats that only care about their own turf or are on a power trip...or some just hate the Palestinians and are in small offices where they can stamp or not stamp travel papers....

if you think i'm going to defend such people or policy...your wrong. I have no need to, out of some misguided loyalty to the state of israel...sorry to disappoint you.

I still have no idea why you expect the israeli govt to be "nice" and why you believe the Palestinians should ignore the egyptian option so that you can stay at the mercy of israeli bureaucrats and politicians...seems masochistic to me.

[pelsar]

5. just making stuff up again....

you seem to do that in almost every post .....

perhaps you an explain why?..

[Ken Burch]

12. I made up nothing

The rockets are used as the justification for everything. They're used as the means to silence all discussion. They're used to browbeat everyone into supporting "the line" and the status quo.

[pelsar]

7. i enjoy the hateful reactions here....the exposure

a article about a typical society problem and a judge who is attempting to correct what he can, as per the culture of a democracy.....

the reaction in this nice "progressive" forum?......reams of demonization and derogatory remarks toward the society correcting itself and posters who believe in those corrective abilities......

my my my...such nice "progressives"......it takes a very very long time for their real feelings to show....and they are far from the ideals of progressiveness.

gaza has exposed so many

[Ken Burch]

14. There was nothing hateful

There was no dark subtext and no bigotry. And you know it.

I was condemning a debating tactic used here by the DU Hasbara brigade over and over. You know it's done. You know it's wrong. And you know there's nothing evil in calling it out.

The judge is a good person. So are those within Israel who oppose the Occupation and reject "the line". I praise all of them. They defend the values of Martin Buber, the values the whole thing SHOULD have been about.

Get out of the "ein breira" trap already. There are plenty of choices.

[pelsar]

19. you were belittling terrorism.....

you ve made it clear that in your opinion the kassams are not terrorism.....and in essence mean nothing. And that i understand, because if you accept that the kassam are terrorism then your whole thesis that the Palestinians are helpless and can do nothing is totally ruined.

you certainly have a very low opinion of them..im glad they dont agree with you.

[Ken Burch]

20. What I belittle is the idea that the rockets justify everything

And the idea that all Palestinians(or at least all Gazans)are responsible for them. And that they happened for no reason. And the idea that the Israeli government is entitled to claim moral superiority in this conflict.

I don't belittle anyone's suffering.

Let me be clear.

I would never have fired those rockets.

But they are not the end of the discussion, nor do they make everyone who disagrees with the Israeli response an enemy of the people of Israel.

[pelsar]

23. you forgot already?

you were clear the rockets are nothing serious......you were very clear in belittling the daily rocket strikes on israelis....

no, they are not the end of the discussion, what they are and what they represent is reality. That destroyed many of the beliefs and hopes that many many israelis had.

its the fool or believer that doesn't modify ones belief when reality changes.....they have stopped however, so maybe a new change is now happening.

i have friends who disagree with me on the israeli response, they are hardly the enemy of israel....especially since they live in israel, one in sederot. But that is not relevant to your beliefs that the kassams mean nothing and affect nothing.
____

but yes, there is a difference in morality....shooting rockets randomly day and night to terrorize is terrorism....stopping the terrorism, with a variety of limited violent means (that all failed) is not terrorism and is in fact morally superior.


it a pretty simple formula:
try to kill as many civilians as possible, day and night
try to stop the killing of civilians

they are not same thing



i have no idea what possible reason other than terrorism would people shoot rockets daily at civilians.. I guess you know and understand the reason since you claim there is one...

please tell me what it is______________________

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. Do you think that people in Gaza have no legitimate issue with the gov't (and people) of Israel?

I certainly don't agree with their actions, but I sure as shit understand where they are coming from.

It's a pretty simple formula:
continue with a 40-year violent, deadly military occupation and siege, day and night
try to stop that occupation.

They are not the same thing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. The reality is, Pelsar, that even if Palestinians followed the play book perfectly

(if there were such a "how to effectively end a 40-year occupation manual) Israel will create reasons why there can't be peace.

For crying out loud, when pushed to the wall, your gov't will not even agree to stop settlement expansion (which the entire world sees as illegal and immoral), which is the MINIMUM Palestinian demand.

Honestly. There is simply no where to go with that.

What's the point of pretending this is about rockets or terrorism.

[shira]

31. admit it, they blew it big time when they decided to attack with rockets when Israel left Gaza

think about it - if they had played nice, think about the pressure Israel would have faced to do a unilateral withdrawal from the WB.

that great elected leadership in Gaza couldn't even pretend to play nice for a while in order to work up enough pressure on Israel to abandon the WB as they did Gaza.

they blew it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. "Pretending to play nice." Great strategy Shira.

Unfortunately, playing along rarely works in the face of those who ultimately seek your destruction.

What was written in *your* textbooks? I know what mine taught.

[proteus_lives]

33. Unfortunately, playing along rarely works in the face of those who ultimately seek your destruction

Well then, do you agree that Israel shouldn't negotiate with Hamas? Since they have "We want to destroy Israel" (paraphrased) right there in their charter.

[shira]

37. is it really so difficult for you to admit Hamas and Gazans should have started working for peace

...once Israel abandoned Gaza?

[pelsar]

36. now your not being honest...

gaza was the grand experiment....you seem to have conveniently forgotten not only were settlements expansion stopped in gaza, they were destroyed...far far more extreme that "stopping them".

look gaza failed...your team blew it, dont go putting it on us that the Palestenians/gazans made some dumb decisions and used the settlements as launching pads...

its all about rockets and terrorism until you accept that, our values are in fact different from yours and yes israel is the more powerful, your not going to get very far by ignoring the implications of that.

i understand that you don't want to "play by our rules"...but thats your mistake. The jews in 48 knew the british playbook and used it against them...thats how it works if the goal is success

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. Your "grand experiment" was designed to fail.

Let me ask you this.

Back before Israel left Gaza, and the PA was still running the show, they begged Israel to coordinate the withdrawl of settlers and of troops with them. Did they not beg for coordination?

Why did Israel refuse to cooperate? How long did it take until things fell apart for the PA? If the goal of the grand experiement was truly as you claim, why did your gov't refuse to work with the PA?

Regardless, it's impossible to say what coulda/shoulda/woulda happened because both Israel and the US basically overturned free and fair elections in Gaza, and punished the people for their democratic choice. Who knows what situation would have emerged had the elected party been given a chance to rule fairly?

We will never know. It's easier to pretend Palestinians don't *want* democracy rather than face the fact that it was DENIED them.

[pelsar]

42. the Palestinians in gaza had choices.....they chose

The Palestinians in gaza were never "denied democracy" by the US/israel....hamas took control via their guns with no help from the US or israel and the fatah didn't put up a fight. (hows that democracy going in the westbank?.....as if the PA wants democracy)

you may not like those very very very obvious facts....but why hide from them, what does it get you?

_____

and the coordination?....did you miss the action?..or perhaps i should say the non action. Not a single shot was fired, not a single kassam not a single mortar by any of the Palestinians groups. As the IDF moved in to areas, the PA and friends moved out.....the discussion about what to do with the settlements....it was decided it was best for both if they were destroyed...whereas some public buildings now used as universities by fatah and hamas were kept.

i don't know what you read..but once again the actual facts on the ground scream of real coordination..but even that is irrelevant.

You simply don't like the concept of responsibility. Gazas internal politics are a Palestinian responsibility, israel can choose or not choose to work with the PA, its the Palestinians job to decided if they want to work with israel or not.....its up to the PA/Hamas to use their resources as best as they can and only they can decide that and they bear the consequences for those very decisions. They CHOSE to shoot kassams, nobody made them:

remember consequences for ones actions...but more interesting is why do you believe that the Palestinians get a pass on consequences...hasn't history been clear enough about that?

so now its your turn. Its clear israel is not to be trusted..so why in the hell do you want the gazans to be dependant upon israel when they have an option to Egypt?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

56. Pelsar, if you don't even have the honesty to admit that a free and fair election was overturned,

really, there can be no discussion.

I can't dialogue with a fantasy.

[pelsar]

61. you just dont like Palestinian responsibilities.....

whatever the election hamas used their guns with well thoughtout plan to take over.....i get it that you dont want to put the responsibility on the hamas/Palestenians, but it was their guns, their plan.....and outside influences?...of course there area: iran, syria, us, israel, egypt, jordan....its up to the Palestinians to figure out who to listen to or ignore....

your whole premise on virtually everything and anything the Palestinians do is that "someone else made them do it." Btw i have learned that this is the general mantra for those who are "pro palestinian"..as if they are a bunch of "mental retards" that are manipulated by everybody....

i disagree.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

64. Bullshit. Hamas never had a chance to govern. Period.

It's absurd to claim otherwise. And it's a shame. I would like to have seen the bastards voted out.

[pelsar]

66. so what is hamas doing now?

if not governing?..they negotiate a "lull" with israel, declare the lull off, get invaded, have a coordinated defense, stop the kassams from being shot ......have checkpoints, kill those who oppose them, negotiate with Egypt for letting gazans out via egypt, tax the tunnel smugglers, order new cars in, coordinate with israel for hospital visits, food, etc

sounds like a governing body to me......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. Done playing with you Pelsar.

I am personally disappointed in your game playing. You know better, dude.

[pelsar]

82. thats a mistake...

because i 'm not playing...these thoughts, posts are precisely how i see the events...of course they wont be as per your view....we live in very very different cultures....Have i ever doubted your view, accuse you of playing?.....

its that difference that is a major part of the problem...and this gap is only larger with the language gap

[pelsar]

83. the difference between us...

i think..and feel free to correct me...is that because the Palestinians are occupied you believe that gives them a free pass to do whatever they like.....without paying any consequences for it. ....if fact any consequences that might arise is simply another example of how they are being screwed. because the greater sin, the greatest sin is the occupation and nothing can compare to that in is evilness


and from that base belief....everything else flows.....


did i get it right?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

85. What do you believe is the greatest "sin" in this conflict, Pelsar?

I am asking seriously.

[pelsar]

88. the concept that land ownership as the most important aspect.

is the greatest sin here.

if you take that off the "highest" level..and replace it with human rights, civil rights, both nationalism and fanaticism lose some of their strength.......

and btw as much as i am strongly nationalistic i also recognize it as part of the problem.......

[pelsar]

35. so you too?....pretending egypt doesnt exist?

thats disappointing.....you appear to be one more that basically states:

we're not going to put pressure on egypt even though their border can solve all of our problems...we prefer to pretend that egypt doesnt exist so that we can claim the following:

we are still occupied by israel
israel has made us in to a large prison
only israel has the keys...
we are starving because of israel
we have no building supplies because of israel
we cant leave to learn because of israel
etc etc etc.

got a news flash......israel doesn't play nice
the gazans have lots of legit complaints...so?..hows that complaint box doing?
_______

you appear to be one more that, in the bottom line, has made it clear: if israel cant be made to "pay" or be fair, then the gazans should continue to suffer.....

great attitude, but it explains a lot.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. You never answered me: why can't Gazans use their own ports?

And let's think this through together: Hmm... why is Egypt not more accomodating for Gazans? Hmmm... Hmmmm... given their track record of independent political action.

Your attempt to paint Egypt as one more "mean" Arab country is ridiculous. Who exactly do you think is giving Egypt their marching orders on this issue?

[pelsar]

43. Grads, katushas etc.....

longer range more accurate rockets......
______

now take your thought process and apply it to israel..israel is also not very accommodating is it..yet there is massive intl pressure on israel to open its gates where suicide bombers once walked through.

so you explain to me....why is there not ANY intl pressure on Egypt......are all those nice human rights groups, scared of Egypt? are all the writers of articles that blame israel for "hermitically sealing gaza"...scared of the Egyptian secret service?

please explain what exactly are they afraid of by not mentioning "the country that shall not be named".

[stranger81]

49. I, for one, am still interested in an answer to another question you posed:

"Why is it that you have the inherent right to be free, travel, receive visits from your family, educate your kids, sit and drink coffee, while he lives behind barbed wire like a prisoner in a concentration camp?"

The response you received -- that collective punishment is a reality -- is no answer at all.

[pelsar]

52. the more detailed answer....i just didnt think it was necessary...

in israel, human lives are deemed more important than other rights such a freedom of movement, the right to privacy.

thats the basic value of the israeli society. Yours may be different.

So within israel, when there is a terror alert and the various security forces spread out to find the infiltrator...israelis immediately loose their freedom of movement and privacy.
Roads are blocked, cars no longer move, people are asked for their ID and other questions as per the security personal request. Refusal will get you arrested.

That same value of human lives being more important than freedom of movement is also place on the westbank and gaza.

Israel has yet to develop the BSR (brain scan reader, for you less informed). Hence its impossible to know which of the thousands of Palestinians that used to enter israel daily plans on killing.

As i write this i feel i am explaining this situation to some kids in grade school....

So, since it is impossible to know just which of the people plan on killing, and given the base value that human lives are more important the freedom of movement, it became necessary to check each one- restriction of movement....but even that didnt help, because those bombers and their handlers were smart, they used older women, pregnant women, people with medical passes, the mentally impaired any and all options were used to sneak in their bombs and kill people.

in the end, because israel values the lives of people as more important than freedom of movement it was necessary to restrict freedom of many with a wall....the result is obvious....no more lives being lost while the Palestinians lost freedom of movement.

in a world of limited options, this is the better of the two for israelis........your values may differ (but not the country you live in)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. The question isn't why is life more important than movement. It was why is YOUR LIFE

more valuable than the life of my brother-in-law, who, on paper, has even more to offer the world than you do.

[pelsar]

57. my life isnt more important.....nor more valuable

he belongs to a society that has in effect declared war on the society that i live in.......(those noise making kassams and mortars again....)

when that happens, the members of both sides suffer to a degree, the weaker one, or the one that has made decisions that aren't as smart, suffer more. In this case i would say the Hamas and the PA made some foolish decisions in the name of the gazan society.....and they're consequences for this decisions.

for reasons that are unclear to me, they believed that can try to kill israelis daily without any serious consequences- i have no idea why they believed it, but i get the impression you also do......

stopping those kassams and suicide bombers have/had a cost.....your brother in law is paying for his govts foolish decisions.
-----

but isnt this obvious?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. Pelsar, you don't think YOUR society has been the one to declare war?

OMG are you kidding me?

[pelsar]

60. nope....

i know you don't like the gaza option...you may prefer to close you eyes..but attacking a neighbor country with kassams is consider an act war....and nobody made the gazan leadership do that....

btw did you notice that since there are virtually no attacks on israel from gaza there is virtually no israeli attacks as well?

(occasional kassam an the return fire)....or did you miss that?

its that consequence for ones actions...i think hamas figured it out.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

63. So, you basically view Israel's 40+ year violent military occupation as ... what exactly?

A necessary annoyance?

[pelsar]

67. an occupation....

pretty clear definition...gaza is now a blockaded by egypt and israel.....both in affect acts of war..a direct result of those puny kassams....(which shelved the port plan)

its future is now unclear, hopefully it will be removed and gaza can "try again"

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. Violent miliary subjugation hasn't worked too well. You guys should give peace a chance.

Rein in your violent settlers.
Don't allow them to go on raping the land.

[stranger81]

70. Do you seriously believe that this conflict started with the kassam rockets?

That's a convenient fantasy, and nothing more.

[pelsar]

72. get with posts......your assumption is wrong

i dont mind you jumping in .....but you might want to read the posts to "catch up"

[ProgressiveMuslim]

77. Pelsar's main concern is that Israeli Jews are able to live as though they are not engaged

in illegal, immoral and violent behavior.

[pelsar]

80. my main concern is not being killed....

or having people i know get killed while shopping, while in school, on a picnic, in a bus, at home, at a celebration etc

understanding that as my base, goes a long way to understanding my view- pretending its not or believing its not, is simply not true

[ProgressiveMuslim]

86. Finally you say it.

It's us or them and you care about "us." Thanks for you honesty.

Now the question is, what's the best way to get you security in the long term? I don't believe it's by keeping your boot on the necks of millions for eternity.

[pelsar]

89. it doesnt have to be win/lose.....

saving my neck doesnt mean the Palestinians have to "lose theirs"...at least not in the long run....but for course i care about "us" over them.....so do you, so does everybody (who is being honest)

let me get this straight, your berating me for acting like 99.99% of the humans in the world including yourself? i thought such actions and thoughts are simply obvious.

i don't disagree with the long term security..but we 've been over this.....you want it all, at once with a belief that peace will then come...all the jihadniki will suddenly tell iran and syria that they prefer to open up a felafel stand and throw down their Ak-47's

i simply don't believe that...and am not willing to risk my life for such a belief- i'm not religious.....baby steps are a better way to get there.

[stranger81]

71. Even if it's true that Palestinians believed they could kill Israelis without consequence,

it's an undeniable fact that Israel can, and does, kill Palestinians on a daily basis without consequence. Do you really have this little perspective on the actions of your own country????

[oberliner]

73. Israel kills Palestinians on a daily basis without consequence?

What are you talking about?

[Recursion]

91. And we've found the problem

Wow. I'm speechless.

[oberliner]

92. Can you provide evidence to support your ridiculous claim?

Who are the Palestinians killed by Israel over the past, say, ten days?

[Recursion]

93. There was a Simpsons Episode where a hotel had a sign...

...that said "Legionnaire's Disease Free for 182 days!"

[oberliner]

94. Will you admit that your claim was false?

Israelis are not killing Palestinians daily.

It serves no purpose whatsoever to make things up.

The situation is bad enough without ridiculously false hyperbolic comments.

[Recursion]

95. No, for two reasons

A) It wasn't my claim, B) the claim itself doesn't say it happens every day, but that it happens over and over again with no consequences to Israel, which is true.

EDIT: Fine, I read it again. I will concede that "daily" is hyperbole.

You should now concede that if you replace "daily" with "regularly" it is true.

[oberliner]

96. Oops!

Sorry, I did not realize that it was not you who had made that original statement. I apologize.

[stranger81]

69. This still ignores the fundamental issue.

The number of Palestinians killed by Israel is exponentially higher than the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians. Israel clearly believes the lives of its own citizens are worth more than the lives of the people who live in the territories Israel continues to occupy. Why? Is it just that they are Israeli? Jewish? What?

If the answer to PM's question is truly that Israel values human life above all else, then it should value Palestinian lives as well. The fact that Israel shows utter disregard for lives that aren't Israeli just goes to show that its most fundamental value is something else. That Israeli lives should be valued above all else, maybe. But not that human life should be valued above all else (unless you're going to tell me that Palestinians aren't human).

[pelsar]

74. your "utter disregard comment...

shows ignorance of the actual happenings on the ground. I don't know how else to explain it.

if there was "utter disregard"...the deaths would be much much higher......

as far as the hierarchy of the value of human lives...of course there is a hierarchy. The IDF protects israeli lives first given the choices...thats what their job is and its pretty standard for all countries.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. BINGO!

Jewish life. Period.

Perfect example is Gilad Shalit. To read the paper, one would think there is ONE prisoner being held in the Middle East, rather than TENS OF THOUSANDS held by Israel, in addition to Mr. Shalit.

[bemildred]

15. "No shit, Sherlock!" nt

[Scurrilous]

97. Israel`s Two-Tiered Justice System

<snip>

"An Israeli judge made an historic ruling last week when he decided that an Arab teenager needed “protection” from the justice system and ordered that he not be convicted despite being found guilty of throwing stones at a police car during a protest against Israel’s attack last winter on Gaza.

Prosecutors had demanded that the juvenile, a 17-year-old from Nazareth in northern Israel, be convicted of endangering a vehicle on the road, a charge that carries a punishment of up to 20 years’ imprisonment, as a way to deter other members of Israel’s Arab minority from committing similar offences.

But Judge Yuval Shadmi said discrimination in the Israeli legal system’s treatment of Jewish and Arab minors, particularly in cases of what he called “ideologically motivated” offences, was "common knowledge."

In the verdict, he wrote: “I will say that the state is not authorised to caress with one hand the Jewish 'ideological' felons, and flog with its other hand the Arab 'ideological' felons."

He referred in particular to the lenient treatment by the police and courts both of Jewish settler youths who have attacked soldiers in the West Bank and who violently resisted the disengagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005, and of religious extremists who have spent many months battling police to prevent the opening of a car park on the Sabbath in Jerusalem.

"We have known this for a long time, but it has been something very hard for us to prove to the court’s satisfaction,” she said. "Now we have a legal precedent that we can use to appeal against convictions in similar cases."

more