Goldstone member: Israel’s toxic munitions could leave Gaza uninhabitable

[grassfed]

While AIPAC maneuvers Congress into the trained seal position to condemn the Goldstone Report, it’s really important to disseminate some of what the report actually found. Ken Silverstein’s interview in Harpers with retired Irish colonel Desmond Travers, a member of the commission, offers a short, great take on the report. It speaks for itself, especially the last paragraph. If Congress votes to denounce Goldstone with the Pyongyang-type margins AIPAC can typically muster, it will be an historically dark day in that institution.

Travers’s last paragraph:

We were disturbed by the lethality and toxicity of weapons used in Gaza, some of which have been in Western arsenals since the Cold War, such as white phosphorous, which incinerated 14 people, including several children in one attack; flechettes, small darts that are designed to tumble upon entering human flesh in order to cause maximum damage, strictly in breach of the Geneva Convention; and highly carcinogenic tungsten shrapnel and dime munitions, which contain tungsten in powder form. There is also a whole cocktail of other problematic munitions suspected to have been used.

There are a number of other post-conflict issues in Gaza that need to be addressed. The land is dying. There are toxic deposits from all the munitions that have been dropped. There are serious issues with water—its depletion and its contamination. There is a high instance of nitrates in the soil that is especially dangerous to children. If these issues are not addressed, Gaza may not even be habitable by World Health Organization norms.

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/goldstone-member-israels-toxic-munitions-could-leave-gaza-uninhabitable.html

[madrchsod]

1. the destruction of water and sewage plants

the idf`s refusal let construction materials into gaza to repair these facilities. the possible of contamination of the water table is another concern that will have to be addressed

[grassfed]

2. after the ethnic cleansing is complete

guess who pays to clean up Gaza for new Israeli condos?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. DIME remains unproven

Clearly another nut case who believes in it anyway

[ConsAreLiars]

4. You would clearly support and defend the use of DIME once it was proven beyond question,

just as you support and defend the use of other genotoxic and carcinogenic weapons against the Palestinians. You would call sending smallpox infected blankets both brilliant and necessary after denying it and then calling it accidental once when the evidence made that BS obsolete.


Or am I wrong? Do you condemn the mass destruction of homes, the poisoning of the land and water, the bull-dozing of orchards, the mass murders of innocents, and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure?

Haha. Just joking. You just drool like Cheney watching his Iraq war porn when you think of those things.

[shira]

6. please stop pretending you care for the HR situation in the territories

If you cared, you would have a problem with the way in which Hamas commits war crimes like human shielding, using child combatants and ambulances, hiding out in hospitals, boobytrapping homes, schools, and mosques, wearing civilian clothing, etc. These major warcrimes are minimized and ignored by major HR organizations.

There is a vast amount of evidence for all this (I'll provide some if you wish - not that it will matter).

The reason each of the above acts is a very serious war crime is because each of those acts takes away the HR protections of civilians in a war zone according to International Law. Those acts make it more likely that Palestinian civilians will be harmed by Israel's legitimate defensive actions to safeguard their own citizens....and yes, Israeli citizens are people too. They also deserve protection.

The problem is that HR organizations that profess to care for the HR situation greatly minimize or ignore these acts of Hamas - the Goldstone Report is no different but I'm sure you're a big advocate of the report.

If you cared, this would bother you greatly.

But it doesn't.

So please stop pretending this is all about HR for you.

The better question is what really motivates you here?

[xc8mip]

8. hasabra is your motivation

all your post relates to Israeli actions in Gaza yet is strangely reversed
Likud party is much worse than Hamas .Israel is not fighting to survive

[shira]

9. HRW and Goldstone ignore and minimize those actions by Hamas - is that ok with you?

do you loathe the Palestinians so much that you don't mind HRW and Goldstone allowing Hamas to abuse Gazans via child combatants, storing weapons in homes, schools, and mosques, using ambulances for military purposes, making their HQ under the Gaza hospital, blending in with civilians by not wearing uniforms, firing rockets from densely populated neighborhoods, boobytrapping homes, schools, and mosques, etc?

[xc8mip]

10. Are Palestinians human to you?

Your posts are so blatantly false it's just hilarious .I like that but stay focus pls.Hasabra is dead horse here

[shira]

11. i'll answer you as soon as you first answer me, how's that?

let's see first by your answer to my question whether you see Palestinians as human beings deserving of HR under Hamas.

and what is blatantly false about my posts? is it that you don't believe Hamas is commiting those warcrimes? if so, how much evidence do you require? and will it even make a difference to you?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. The only thing that is clear is that

you are a Con, and like your handle says, Cons are Liars

[ConsAreLiars]

18. What are you, a 12-year old?

Actually, Cons (Conservatives/Con artists) ARE Liars. Some who post on DU are skilled enough to "pass" or are just given a pass, maybe because there are some nasty right-wingers within the Dem Party so those right-wing views are allowed here.

Whatever. Of course, you did not answer the question, which fact pretty well answers it.

[pelsar]

19. actually intolerance is the real evil....

someone who makes such a broad statement for a legitament political movement and legit view and declares them all liars (Cons (Conservatives/Con artists) ARE Liars.).....well that fits quite well within the views of the settlers, hamasnkim, pot poll crowd, mao tse tung, friends of 'stalin, etc....

all fanatical, all religious, always intolerant of other views...especially when they deal with ones personal freedom....

[ConsAreLiars]

20. You regard right-wingers as truth-tellers. I regard them as liars since they prove that every day.

Your barely coherent and poorly spelled attempt to associate me with "pot poll" at least gave me a 7 of 10 on the giggle scale. Thanks for that.

Will you name your favorite conservatives and tell us all how they are not lying, but actually telling the truth on some matter of substance, not just reporting the time of day? One example or five? Health care, global warming, corporatism/fascism? Anything regarding the mass slaughter of Palestinians by the IDF?

[pelsar]

21. how about left wing liars?....not hard to find...

but thats not the point....what is telling is that your version of truth is nothing more than ones interpretation of things yet to happen....and you believe that its not only the truth but cannot accept a different viewpoint...i.e they are liars.

Health care is good case...the actual bill of presently 1900 pages+ is so complex nobody really has any idea hows its implementation will affect the industry and economy. One can believe it will do X or Y, but until the actual laws and rules, etc are actually implemented will it affects be known, only a true believer can state any of it as "fact" for something that has yet to happen.
-reading the future is generally considered to be an act of faith, nothing factual in that.

Global Warming is actually more humorous than anything else...reminds me of the global cooling of the 70s...
, the atmosphere was becoming dustier and filling with pollution. Fine, light-scattering particles in the air were shading the planet's surface and, some suspected, causing the cooling.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225822.300-the-ice-age-that-never-was.html

so again, one can believe its happening, but it will take quite a few more decades, if not a hundreds before we may know if its cyclic, or attributed to sun spots or man made or nothing more than the constant change that defines the ecosystem......the global warming is nothing more than theory and man made computer models based on a science (climatology) that is barely understood....... hence your intolerance of other opinions is nothing less than that of a believer.

shall i go on about how you make an intolerant belief out of things that have no solid proof?...

hmm corporate fascism...is that one word?...are all corporations Fascists?..is that by definition? So all those people working for Ford company are Fascists?...or does the fascism start at a certain level?

out of curiosity, Google is corporation as is Apple, Microsoft, NorthFace as are many companies that produce organic foods...all Fascists? (may i assume you are of such moral fiber that you dont use products produced by fascist companies?)

and of course my favorite: the mass slaughter of the Palestinians by me and my colleagues and friends. How do you define a slaughter?..a bus being blown up? school children lined up and shot?....how about bus passengers shot in the head one by one?...do those constitute massacres?...or is your definition something not defined by the dictionary but depends upon ones genes...

and of course you know what that means......
_____

i actually don't have a "favorite conservative' sorry to disappoint you, nor do i have a favorite liberal, but i do enjoy the hypocrisy i find on both sides and sometimes I can't tell the difference.

intolerance for the others that have a different interpretation of events or a prediction of the future describes well the fascists of past and the religious fanatics of today....its a large club I've noticed.
____


I'm sure i am about to incur the wrath of a "true believe" who has had their sacred objects defiled.....

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Apart from displaying the fact that you agree with Sen. Inhoffe on everything

and fully support the other right-wing reality deniers and pro-corporatist/fascist jackasses on every issue you you touched on, your post was pretty incoherent. Maybe if you could learn to use capitals when appropriate, it might help, but I doubt it.

Maybe you don't regard the killing of 1400 Palestinians, a third or quarter of them children, in Gaza as a mass slaughter, but reserve that term only for cases which a dozen or two Israelis (or Jews,if that is the operative label which pushes your us/other button) get butchered.

I use it in both cases. You, only for one. What does that say about you? Think about it. Do you oppose mass murders and the slaughter of innocents, or only when the victims are Jews/Israelis. Do you support a policy of collective punishment when the Israeli government does it, and never remember that that tactic was once used against European Jews and even worse was to follow?

Think. Please. The original promise of Israel as a sanctuary for displaced Jews cannot be achieved by mass murdering those who live in the coveted land (I think "Covet not the land..." or such was in some old nonsense book) or have been driven into ghettos like Gaza.

[pelsar]

33. your pretty weak on an actual reply...so i'll make it simpler....

anybody who believes that they can read the future and call it a fact and is intolerant of other opinions is a fanatic...and fanatics and their believers are probably the root cause for so many of the problems that have existed in the past and exist today between societies.

you seem to be such a fanatic in your belief that you can read the future and everybody who disagrees with you is liar..did i get that right?

____

actually i dont believe you......i don't think you oppose collective punishment...are you against all boycotts?

and just for setting a baseline....are you against the arab invasion of israel in 48? or the murder of the jewish famers in the early 1900's who were setting up the foundations for israel?

___

and it may be that Sen. Inhoffe agrees with me...so do many other liberals and conservatives and independents......
and what is a pro-corporatist/fascist i couldn't find it in the dictionary....please define so i can enjoy the hypocrisy of your definition (this will be fun!!!)


some corrections...i can see there will be quite a few if this continues...
you're making a few assumptions about my views without knowning...tsk tsk tsk......
The original promise of Israel as a sanctuary for displaced Jews ....actually your wrong here....which begs the question of how little do you actually know about the conflict..i suspect not a whole lot.....

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Your personal attack is not worthy of comment...its about all you seem to do here at DU

[ConsAreLiars]

31. (Chuckle) You post "The only thing that is clear is that you are a Con," and then whine

"Your personal attack is not worthy of comment...its about all you seem to do here at DU" and thus again attempt make one more childish personal attack.

I'll have to revise my mental and maturity age estimate down to maybe 2 or 3.

Since you seem to get all agitated about screen names - I use mine to make a true statement and you seem to use yours as a disguise. Your infantile ad hominem nonsense pretty well strips away any credibility for the second half of your user name, and I've never seen any post by you that validates the first part. Maybe I missed that one? Got a link?

Here's a bit of advise, if you want to argue, seek competent.

[xc8mip]

24. Medics shocked by injuries of DIME bombs that tear legs off

"Two medics who were sent into the Gaza war zone by the Norwegian aid organization NORWAC said they had seen clear signs that Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME), an experimental kind of explosive, were being used by Israel.

"This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 meters (16-98 feet)," said Gilbert, 61, who was sent to the war-torn region on on Dec. 31.

"We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations... without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons"

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/12/64087.html


I'll only say it will be up to Israel to decide what to do . I think it would be beneficial for everybody to make sure generals,officers who selected these weapons are no longer in charge

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Nothing in any of the credible publications has anything about DIME

be produced or deployed. Gilbert and others are inferring it (at best). The facts are that DIME has not be documented as anything but experimental by any nation.

[xc8mip]

25. GBU-39 SDB Focused Lethality Munition

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/sdb-flm.htm


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

"In mid-October 2006 a team of investigative journalists at RAI Italian television reported that Israel had been using a new weapon in the Gaza Strip, similar to DIME – dense inert metal explosive. The report was produced by the same journalists who claimed without foundation that the US used White Phosphorus (WP) against civilians during attacks on Fallujah. According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, the weapon was launched from drones in the summer of 2006, most of them in July, and led to "abnormally serious" physical injuries. Physicians in the Gaza Strip noted the pattern of wounds they were treating were unusual, with severed legs that showed signs of severe heat at the point of amputation but no metal shrapnel. The American version is still in a testing stage and had not been used on the battlefield at that time. It has not been "declared an illegal weapon", though the weapon was claimed to be "highly carcinogenic and harmful to the environment"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. The key is the last paragraph...DIME is not funded for development

There would have to be production funding as well. I suggest you check the DoD appropriation that President Obama signed for better information.

[shira]

5. Goldstone member says.....? Oh, it must be true then!

:eyes:

[grassfed]

16. Desmond Travers

http://harpers.org/archive/2009/10/hbc-90006003

[Sezu]

7. Trained seal?

Yeah that's not antisemitic at all, saying that Jews control Congress. Take your CT filth somewhere else.

[xc8mip]

12. Alarm Spreads Over Use of Lethal New Weapons

"GAZA CITY, Jan 22 (IPS) - Eighteen-year-old Mona Al-Ashkar says she did not immediately know the first explosion at the United Nations (UN) school in Beit Lahiya had blown her left leg off. There was smoke, then chaos, then the pain and disbelief set in once she realised it was gone - completely severed by the weapon that hit her.

Mona is one of the many patients among the 5,500 injured that have international and Palestinian doctors baffled by the type of weaponry used in the Israeli operation. High-profile human rights organisations like Amnesty International are accusing Israel of war crimes.

Mona's doctors at Gaza City's Al-Shifa hospital found no shrapnel in her leg, and it looked as though it had been "sliced right off with a knife."

"We are not sure exactly what type of weapon can manage to do that immediately and so cleanly," said Dr. Sobhi Skaik, consultant surgeon general at Al-Shifa hospital. "What is happening is frightening. It's possible the Israeli army was using Gaza to experiment militarily."

Both international organisations and human rights groups, including the UN, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have condemned Israel's use of unconventional weapons in civilian areas of the Gaza Strip"

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45503

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Mads Gilbert, a primary source for this article was shown to be making things up

and is pretty much discredited.

DIME has never been proven to be an operational weapon for any nation.

[grassfed]

15. Mads Gilbert is in beautiful company

with Rev Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Mairead Corrigan Maguire and thousands of other great souls who have been subjected to crude character assassination campaigns for speaking out against ethnic cleansing, torture and genocide in Palestine.

Mads Gilbert, humanitarian doctor and eye witness to slaughter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA

Mairead Corrigan Maguire
http://www.nobelwomensinitiative.org/news/taxonomy/Israel-Palestine

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. If you go back you will see he faked things for a camera, Which is fraud

All of the media dropped him like a hot rock after that

[grassfed]

22. you believe FOX NEWS and call yourself progprof...

perfect

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. A number of medicos agreed. What was shown was staged

All of the media dropped him after that. There were some defenses raised later, but clearly the damage was done.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I looked into this and what yr saying isn't true at all...

The only ones who made any accusations of anything being staged are the same old zealots who claim anything that doesn't make Israel look great is staged. And CNN came out after the RW smear-brigade got started and reiterated that there was nothing staged or faked in the clip and threw their full support behind it. So why are you coming out with falsehoods like the one where you claim 'all the media dropped him after that' when just a few seconds of googling shows otherwise?

[bstender]

37. snort! ProgressiveProfessor didnt expect you to google it!

nice work. i saw that link-less statement and smelt a rat too:> what a wanker

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Ah, I've learnt from experience to not trust what that person posts....

I'm not sure why some people are so intent on posting falsehoods that are very easily proven false if anyone takes more than a second or two to look into it for themselves...

[ConsAreLiars]

39. A lesson many more learn with every new example. I did indeed have to giggle

when he felt so personally offended by my user name, after he got called out on another bit of BS posted here, and went into "and so are you" Peewee Herman mode. Progressive? I asked for one link suggesting that the label fit and got no reply. Professor? Who knows? A precocious and posturing 12-year-old or someone who once taught at some community college and now suffers from the brain defects that sometimes come with aging? Hard to tell from the posts.

[xc8mip]

23. Gaza case studies: Weapons use

"Marc Garlasco of HRW says there is concern about the number of Palestinian civilians killed by missiles fired from unmanned Israeli aircraft, or drones, particularly because these can be precisely targeted and guided by an operator using imaging "like a TV camera" as they home in on their target.
In several cases, children were killed as they played on roofs, despite the fact that the operator should have been able to determine they were civilians and steer the missile away, he says.

"It appears there was this wider policy to kill anyone on a roof," he said.

Furthermore, investigators found that many of the missiles used in such strikes contained tiny, sharp-edged cubes of purpose-made shrapnel, which are scattered as the missile explodes
"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7905320.stm

I'll link some more.......

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Its not HD, in fact its fairly grainy at best

Look at some of the video from Desert Storm and OCL and judge for yourself. Also consider data latency. Its not like watching National Geographic. There are also errors in the real time interpretation.Israel makes at least one weapon (Delilah) that is designed to accept a wave off prior to impact if the operator commands it. That said, I would expect that in some circumstances, children were discernible.

Another exercise for serious students is to look at a Google Earth picture of a location you do not know and then go there with a printout. Your errors will amaze you.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

35. the map idea is great... too buggy at this point to be useful.....

your question is to vague...so i really can't help you with the answer....can you separate "war savagery from war that is not savage?......

i have no idea why you believe that the gaza invasion had anything to do with the transition of power in the US in terms of "getting away with it." It appears that you consider the terrorism of over 6,000 kassams landing on israel day and night almost daily, causing over 100,000s citizens to run to shelters within 15 seconds to be non consequential......

obviously there is a difference in values here.

btw the sadism in israel, can you clarify?..is it the Israeli leaders? the soldiers in the field? the citizens who demanded from the govt to stop the "never ending kassams"?

your post is very emotional but short on specifics, i can only conclude that the kassams and mortars on israelis citizens were/are of such non consequential nature that, it wasn't enough of a disturbance to you, to warrant stopping ......(given the history of the more limited attempts to stop them previous to the invasion-all declared war crimes at one point or another....)


and just for fun: i wonder if you realize that this sentence makes no sense:
country that wants it all, for themselves ......the minor fact that israel left gaza, destroyed settlements kinda ruins your thesis....I dont know if that is relevant i just though i would point it out.