GAZA-EGYPT: Rafah sees record crossings

[pelsar]

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/08/10/GAZAEGYPT_Rafah_sees_record_crossings/

The Rafah crossing on the Gaza-Egypt border opened for five days this month, the longest continued period since Hamas seized power in the Palestinian-controlled Gaza Strip in June 2007. From 3-8 August, Egyptian border authorities allowed 4,317 passengers to leave Gaza and turned back 763, Ghazi Hamad, head of Gaza's borders and crossings authority, told IRIN. In addition, 3,311 passengers were permitted entry to Gaza from Egypt....
_____

can i get an explanation why in fact there appears to be absolutely no articles no pressure on egypt to help the Palestenians?

the Palestenians in gaza weren't/ aren't attacking egypt (i believe there were 2 exceptions), egypt can open its borders and not worry about bombs being smuggled in to blow up its soldiers…it can open its border and not worry about an attack on the border post. It can let the gaza students out to study, send sick people for treatment in cairo etc

They have a port a mere 30 minutes drive from gaza for importing and exporting....

is there some logical reason why materials/food must go through israel?

i realize the political value of it, how many articles have been written blaming israel for sealing gaza, starving the gazans etc. If egypt opens the border, it will be tough to blame israel, the Gazans life can improve and who knows, they may even concentrate their limited resources on improving their lives and living…..leaving many journalists, far right and left wingers and other believers "empty handed" in their quest to blame israel for all of the Palestinians problems....by proving them wrong. is that it?

a preference for the Palestinians in gaza to suffer, just so israel can be blamed?

[shira]

1. i guess Egypt doesn't do Israel's bidding by agreeing to keep the border all locked up like a prison

:eyes:

and there's this..

Goods Flood Gaza’s Tunnels, Turning Border Area Into a Shopping Mecca
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/world/middleeast/22rafah.html

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Why shouldn't both Israel and Egypt cop some blame?

That's the way I see it, but I think attempts to absolve Israel of any responsibility is very similar to attempts to absolve Egypt of any responsibility.

[pelsar]

5. its just safer to go via egypt...

the gazans have attacked israeli border stations while the trucks were entering gaza...they:ve mortared the stations when they opened, etc

whereas the egyptian border has no danger to anyone. Why endanger lives when there is a safe alternative?

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Aren't we talking about foot traffic?

I understand that for trucks and stuff, crossings have to be set up with all the stuff needed to process their loads, but with people crossing, it's not the same. I suspect there's much more risk to Palestinian lives than there are to either Israeli or Egyptian when it comes to crossing the border...

[shaayecanaan]

8. even safer...

lift the blockade and allow ships to access Gaza and fishing vessels fish in Gazan waters.

That way, they dont have to access Israeli ports or Egyptian ports. Everyone's a winner.

Except you actually don't really want that to happen. You're quite happy to see the blockade to continue, but for some reason you're enormously precious about Israel being criticised for it.

Israel gets criticised for the occupation. People in Gaza go hungry because of it. I am more concerned for the latter than the former. I think most people probably feel the same way.

Ultimately, I think it will be up to the international community to break the blockade. There are no ports in Gaza but there is sufficient natural anchorage close to shore, and there are plenty of small vessels in Gaza that could transport goods to land.

[pelsar]

9. so wrong.....

i think all the nice people who worry about the gazans going hungry should pressure egypt to open the border.....more than enough food can be brought in via egypt and anything else the gazans need. The gazans can leave and go to learn in universities through out the world etc. And the arab countries can show how generous they are to the gazans..... (after all if pressure on israel has failed, perhaps its time to try an alternative?)

it should be obvious: BUT if they do open the gates,


you wouldn't get to write this:
Israel gets criticised for the occupation. People in Gaza go hungry because of it

and that is the problem isn't it. If Egypt opens the gates then its clear there is no occupation....and no starving gazans

really sad, so many people prefer the Palestinians to suffer just so they can complain about israel. Its been going on since 48 and now the nice western lefties have joined the arab countries in using the Palestinians for their own agenda, with the Palestinians getting shafted.

remind me again why there is no pressure on egypt?

[shaayecanaan]

20. Egypt is a necrotic dictatorship

it tortures its own people. Its treatment of Copts and other religious minorities is terrible. Its government is deeply corrupt and incompetent. It is a rare example of a government that is simultaneously autocratic and yet unable to get anything done. The fact that it has not utilised the vast water reserves in the Nubian aquifer to the same extent that Libya has done is one example. The harsh repression of opposition groups in both Egypt and Saudi Arabia was probably the single largest factor behind the development of Islamic terrorist groups.

None of any of the above statements are controversial, or even slightly contentious. Therefore they tend not to get debated in fora such as this. It is more or less accepted that Egypt is an unfortunate and dysfunctional state.

Similarly:-

"Britain committed war crimes in Iraq" - not a contentious statement
"The US committed war crimes in Afghanistan" - again, hardly controversial
"Israel committed war crimes in Gaza" - watch the dancing monkeys explode out of the box.

That Israel committed war crimes in Gaza is demonstrably true. The al-Maqadma mosque was bombed during evening prayers and 15 people were killed. As Goldstone said:-

"Assuming that weapons were stored in the mosque, it would not be a war crime to bomb it at night... It would be a war crime to bomb it during the day when 350 people are praying"

The debate that this topic attracts is not a result of differential "pressure". It is largely a result of advocates of Israel strenuously denying that which is demonstrably true. And as you have admitted in a previous post, the blockade of Gaza is roughly "70% Israeli and 30% Egyptian" (Israel maintains an active blockade intercepting boats that go to Gaza as well as closing its own borders).

To use your logic, we should have felt sorry for the Germans at Nuremberg because they were criticised far more than the Italians and the Japanese were for their participation in WW2.

I find it rather mewling and pathetic, to be honest.

[pelsar]

23. you miss the whole point...but perhaps that was on purpose.....

yes egypt is a corrupt dictatorship...so what has that got to do with the price of tea in china?

it just means that its easier to get changes done, there is far less of a bureaucracy....all Egypt has to do is succumb to enough world wide diplomatic pressure to open up its borders to the gazans..far more than what its doing now.

they already have Al Arish as the airport for Palestinians Airlines.....a port only 50 south of gaza....

so explain to me again, why there is no pressure on egypt...be it from the nice left that is so worried about gazans starving? or the students (one group that actually went to deliver supplies..... or the arab league that is also upset with their ghetto lives.....

are people afraid of upsetting mubarak is that it?
____

what your missing in the differential is that gazans have attacked the various israeli border posts while supplies were being brought in, a preplanned attack.....hasn't happend to the egyptians....so why risk lives when there is a safer alternative?

not to mention the other added benefits of gazans freeing themselves from the "its israels fault, and we can't do anything" mentality. (now that would really upset the Palestinian Refugee Industry.....that would ruin one of their basic foundations and i think that is what its really about.

look at your last two posts....barely a word about why the border to egypt is so closed, nothing about the pros and cons..in fact you avoided it entirely....you interest is not the gazans and their welfare, in fact like most of the arab govts etc, your preference is that they suffer as long as israel can be blamed for something...if improvement of their lives involves "letting israel off the hook"...you prefer it not to happen.

now THAT is pathetic.

[oberliner]

27. In response to some of your comments

1. If it is incontrovertible that Egypt is a necrotic dictatorship that tortures its own people, why is there not a coordinated effort on the left to protest the amount of financial aid with which the US provides that country. Egypt receives billions of dollars in aid per year but it does not seem to be the recipient of nearly as much criticism from those who are critical of the amount of aid Israel receives from the US.

2. The statements that you claim are "not contentious" in fact are quite contentious. There is no mandate for the UN Human Rights Council to look into war crimes committed by Britain in Afghanistan or the US in Iraq. There is, however, a concerted effort to investigate potential war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza. If the actions of the US and British are so clearly criminal, one would think that the UN ought to investigate them as rigorously as they have Israel and produce a similar report on the matter.

The "dancing monkeys" would not be "exploding out of the box" if there was at least the appearance of consistency with respect to such investigations. If the US, Britain, Russia, and others were being investigating along with Israel the hue and cry would be greatly reduced as the claim of exceptionalism on the part of the UN with respect to Israel would be invalidated.

3. I seriously do not understand why there is a continuously need to evoke the Holocaust when making any kind of metaphorical comparison related to the behavior of Israel. This cannot be accidental as there are numerous historical and current examples which would provide far more accurate comparisons without the need to implicitly link Israel and Nazi Germany.

Apologies in advance for any typos I may have missed.

[shaayecanaan]

47. Responses...

1. Since 1979, aid to Egypt has been pegged at two-thirds of the level of aid to Israel, pursuant to an undertaking made by Carter at the 1979 peace talks. This undertaking was not the subject of any treaty, so I suppose there is no legal obligation to fulfil that undertaking, nevertheless, to honour its agreement, the US would need to scale back aid to Israel at the same time it scaled back aid to Egypt. My understanding is that virtually everyone who supports abolishing aid to Israel favours abolishing aid to Egypt (I am one).

2. A few points:-

a) At one time, Israel made a concerted effort to investigate its own atrocities - for example, the 1982 inquiry into the Sabra and Shatila massacres, or the Kafr Qasim massacre. Consequently, there was no great push internationally to investigate those matters. As Israel's politics have grown more reactionary it has shown a much greater reluctance to investigate itself (eg the Oct 2000 shootings of Israeli Arabs, the first Qana massacre). It seems as though the Goldstone report will prompt the first judicial inquiry for quite some time. The moral of the story is, if you don't investigate it, someone else will do it for you.

b) I doubt that the statement "the United States committed war crimes in Iraq" would attract any great attention were I to post it anywhere on any of these boards. The statement "Israel committed war crimes in Gaza" does. Why? Part of it seems to be that Jews genuinely want to believe that Israel is a moral enterprise. They like to believe that indeed, the IDF is the most moral Army in the world (even though the British were far more judicious when they were in charge of Palestine, and were far more keen to avoid civilian casualties in Northern Ireland than Israel is/was in Palestine).

This is a fascinating question, which I havent quite worked out. Perhaps it is because American Jews are wealthy, by and large. If you are a third-generation neurosurgeon with a huge driveway and a nice Saab it may be of great comfort to entertain the thought that you are actually beleaguered and persecuted, even by proxy.

3. By and large, I refrain from gratuitous holocaust comparisons. The comparison I made, however, was specific and particular. I have previously brought up the subject of Arab/middle-Eastern leaders being persistently compared to Hitler (Nasser, Arafat, Hussein, Ahmadinejad) - I was told on that occasion that comparison of Arab leaders to Hitler was acceptable but comparison of Jewish leaders to Hitler categorically was not. Another one of those double standards, it seems.

[oberliner]

52. Thank you for taking the time to respond

I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

[azurnoir]

3. thats all well and good

Egypt should be doing this more but unfortunately for Israel its past leaders signed certain agreements so the quest to make Gaza Egypt's problem solely will go unanswered, now for what its worth I could see an agreement whereby if Israel were to remove the air and sea blockades from Gaza all land crossing could become Egypt's responsibility

[pelsar]

4. whats the relevancy?

of the israeli blockade having anything to do with egypt border? ..egypt can just open the borders instead of the tunnels...the agreements are no longer relevant since hamas is now the govt, egypt opens and closes as it feels like it.

i do get it though..you dont want to let israel *off the hook* so to speak. Gaza doesnt even need a sea port or airstrip at this point to bring in all they need. If they were to have access to egypt, they wouldnt need israel for anything....and that would leave them responsible and it wouldnt be possible to blame israel for anything......

[azurnoir]

7. Seems there was something about Israels

responsibilities in the Oslo accords something we have discussed before, it is not a matter of letting Israel off the hook its a matter of Israel having it both ways keeping up a blockade of air and water while shifting responsibility to Egypt something that Israel has quite unsuccessfully trying to do for years now as I said if Israel gets out of Gaza's air and water Egypt can take the land responsibility and Oslo all of it be damned

[pelsar]

10. oslos been dead for a long time....

its not even in the dictionary any more.....

again i notice the same mantra: if israel wants it, then "we must be against it" even if its good for the Palestinians......that seems to be the common link when ever egypt comes up.

israel isn't budging on the importing stuff, the Palestenians in the meantime i understand are still starving......perhaps its time for those who are more concerned with the Palestinian welfare, then what israel wants, is to look at other options...one of them never tried is via egypt.

[azurnoir]

11. Oslo's dead? seems you need to inform more than just me

of that factoid. But no it is not the "if Israel wants it then it must be bad" mantra it is that Israel controls and blockades all access to Gaza save one lone crossing and then cries stomps its feets and makes accusations along the lines of "you just hate us cause we're beautiful" or whatever because the finger is not being pointed solely at Egypt.
however thats some convoluted reasoning if you were truly interested in helping Palestinians you'd be finger pointing Egypt not us. well we ar4e and it seems so is the Arab League could be why they opened the crossings more this year but Israel will still get the majority of the finger pointing and that is fact

as to your imports claims seems your government made some promises earlier this year about that so your admitting they lied?

[pelsar]

12. of course israel lies....all governments do...

nor are they to be trusted.....thats just a given.

why egypt?..because the whole concept of depending upon israel is self defeating thats why. This whole idea of "israel must do....." does not help the Palestinians at all. If they have options that don't require israel they should jump on it. Isn't 40+ years being under the israeli boot enough?

unfortunately that is not happening....why that is baffles me. The sole reason that i can think of is that it would put the Palestinians and their friends in the odd situation of being responsible for their own decisions without an israel to blame....

perhaps you have a theory? (that "lone crossing" was a major importer before intifada II started)

[azurnoir]

15. As long as Israel controls Gaza's air and water

Gaza is under Israel's boot

as far as Palestinians responsibilities go 'scuze me but didn't Fayyad declare a Palestinian state in 2 years with or without Israel's blessing and I am guessing it will be without but the Quartet backed that up with their support also

IMO your opinions about the Palestinians are beginning to resemble those White Southerners circa 1960 where Blacks were concerned why the sudden dive in to bigotry not to mention outright churlishness?

[pelsar]

21. why?

if egypt has its border open to gaza, and the gazans make use of their sea port or the airport a bit south at el arish, home to the Palestinians airlines..use Cairo for any diplomatic stuff they may need...

what exactly CANT the Palestenians of gaza do?

give me a list?

nothing vague, based on some belief that the occupation of the westbank somehow through some metaphysical force stops the gazans from creating an independent society....or that israel sitting on its borders has such a strong force that it paralyzes the gazans...

and just a reminder israel also had 3 borders closed off to itself for years.

and the bigotry?...yes i ve discovered the concept that the Palestinians are somehow *brain damaged* by the occupation so that they cant do anything without israels blessing,.....well except for trying to kill israelis.

whereas pregaza that would hold true, its no longer viable. The gazans have now a whole world of options open to them to start trying. What i find fascinating is the absolute refusal from so many that claim...they cant because of israe,l as the automatic response. if the jews had that attitude in pre 48, they would living with jordanian, egyptian, syrian passports as 2nd class citizens......

its a bigoted attitude by those who claim they care to assume the Palestinians cant do anything in gaza with israeli approval, because it assumes, at best that they simple arent so smart...at least not as smart as the jews who also had a lot going against them under the occupation.

[azurnoir]

26. Oh so Israel was allowed no sea or air traffic for how many years?

is that your claim the whole comparison is actually silly otherwise, btw the port of Eilat seemed awfully important hmm an act of war is an act of war or is that only when its Israel who's waterway is being blocked seems a double standard to me

[pelsar]

29. i think you skipped the main part of the post...i'll repeat here:

if egypt has its border open to gaza, and the gazans make use of their sea port or the airport a bit south at el arish, home to the Palestinians airlines..use Cairo for any diplomatic stuff they may need...

what exactly CANT the Palestenians of gaza do?

give me a list?

_____________________

israel was boycotted and had its borders closed....its not an exact copy of what the gazans face...in fact once they open up to egypt they'll have it a lot easier, than israel did in 48, no political and economic boycotts, no 100,000 holocaust survivors, orphans, etc to care for, no terrorist attacks coming from those borders..........not to mention the whole huge arab market to sell to......

your right, nothing to compare..its rather silly given the problems that israel faced in 48 vs what the gazan have.....

(israel is at war with gaza, i believe i mentioned that before)

so dont forget the question above.....

[azurnoir]

30. scuze again but why should Gazans be so inconvenienced

just to please what has to please Israel-ain't going to happen Israel will try to stay on this course and will eventually become the next South Africa, its already happening whatever political capital that Israel had is spent and in the red at this point how ugly will it get? that's up to Israel
who entire convoluted "if you really cared" point in reality is all about what Israel wants and that is to punish the only ones that it can.

Israel is at war with fenced in strip of land how brave

[pelsar]

31. as your wrote.......just to please what has to please Israel......

i guess that pretty much summarizes it doesnt it.....

you have made it very very clear that even the idea of going south to egypt is simply not acceptable, what do you call it?...inconvenienced...

i am not sure why its so inconvenient to push open a border to improve ones lives, unless it lets israel off the hook..which you have made so clear as the real reason.

for those who actual care

i only care because i dont want another war, and i want them to have solutions, that will work..trusting the israeli govt, being dependant upon israel is not smart.

but you just dismissed it out of hand, without even giving a single real reason why its wrong/bad about it, mainly because you probably cant think of one, except that israel wants it.....

rather pathetic....

[azurnoir]

32. This on Israels part has not one thing to do with improving

the lives of Gazans and yes I do dismiss Gazans having to go south for everything when it could quite easily be shipped in as a poster above pointed out just to please Israel. Whats wrong is that it is inadequate and unnecessary and the fact is that you can not think of one reason other than it the way we want it and it makes us feel powerful and that is truth oh yes you will cry but teh rockets teh rockets

[pelsar]

33. actually its faster and easier via egypt.

israel is not to be trusted as it changes what gets shipped in and of course if attacked will close down the borders making it unreliable.

Egypt then opens the door to self sufficiency on the part of the Palestinians in gaza.

It will be cheaper: there is no need for "back to back trucks..meaning israeli trucks pass on their contents after being checked to gazan trucks. A waste of time and money, that doesn't exist when they go through rafah.

and of course israelis wont be indanger of being killed by those tiny little bullets as they have in the past at the border points....

so why not?
its clear isn't it as per the two posts above.....because it "pleases israel"
____

let the Palestenians suffer, stay under the israeli boot, just because its a way to "get back at israel". I'm sure it feels good, never mind that the Palestinians still have to suffer for it.....

or the other reason? the Palestinians Refugee Industry (PRI). Its built on emotional needs and money. For some, they get to lash back at white mans colonialism, for others they get to write about it, still others it provides them with life time jobs....upsetting that, will cause havoc in the industry. A self sufficient gaza will put a hole in the fanatsy of Palestinian incompetence and dependancy.

[azurnoir]

34. but read back I already said that

if Israel were to open the air and water ways then the crossing could be closed permanently they would not be needed, Egypt could then handle land freight easy enough, the Palestinians are anything but incompetent they have survived

heck if Israel were to do that and move the security wall on to Israel proper then Israel could dome itself maybe then the residents would finally feel safe, but then what my guess is that Israel's economy, culture, and society in general is pretty heavily vested in the military and perpetually having mortal enemies what to do with that once it was no longer needed what ever to do?

eta when it comes to Gaza's waters there are also resources to be developed there and more than just some fish, so yes it quite necessary to open this for economic reasons

[pelsar]

35. and i like santa clause....and hamas should welcome democracy.....

israel is obviously not going to do that,..you can come up with any reason you like, but you've already said israel wont do it...so your plan b is ......nothing?...let the Palestinians continue being dependant upon israeli whims....Good Plan.

egypt is a real viable alternative, that you simply don't like......as i have yet to read why its bad idea (outside of that it might inconvenience someone-the tunnel builders?)

[azurnoir]

36. Plan B will apprently have to be to make it more

expensive and painful to Israel than its worth how this proceeds is up to Israel and Bibi quite honestly is making this possible, the western world is weary of it and has lost patience to be honest Israel American friends are losing their grip Ehud Barak's prophecy of "OCL will change the game" might as well have come from the oracle at Delphi or he was correct he just did not understand how. Peres made a mistake in putting Bibi in power as Livni is much better at the subtle smile and nod politicking than Bibi

[shira]

37. so the bottom line is, no pressure on Egypt....let Gazans suffer so Israel takes blame

wow - that's so generous of you.

please explain to me how your attitude is any better than Arab governments which have used Palestinians as political pawns the past 60 years.

arab governments don't do a damn thing and get away with it b/c they know they can, israel takes the blame, and nothing gets better for palestinians.

how are you any different than them, and how does that make you pro-peace and an honest advocate for palestinian human rights?

[azurnoir]

39. perhaps you need some courses in reading comprehension

or are just flinging feces?

[shira]

45. doubt it....tell me, would you advocate as strongly for Egypt to open its border as you do Israel?

are you okay with your fellow "peace" and "human rights" organizations putting zero pressure on Egypt and 100% on Israel?

[azurnoir]

48. No I would not advocate as strongly for Egypt as strongly

for reasons that I have enumerated at length but it is matter of proportionality Egypt has one crossing and is not engaging in illegal air and sea blockades, would you advocate for Israel to lift those blockades and Israel closing permanently all land crossings as strongly as you advocate shifting responsibility solely to Egypt?

[shira]

56. so it's really not about alleviating the suffering of Gazans for you

As for Israel lifting the blockade and closing off their borders, I'm thinking that would allow Iran to import anything it wishes into Gaza.

Are you really for that happening and Israel's response once Hamas has the capability to hit anything within Israel proper?

Don't you think that would result in MORE suffering for Palestinians, worse than OCL?

[pelsar]

38. the emperor has no clothes....

you have made if very clear...its not about whats best for the Palestinians....its about making israel pay.

the whole gaza pullout has exposed the hypocrisy in so many ways......at least you have been honest about it. Egypt in your view, is not even an option, since it might make life better for the Palestinians without extracting a cost from israel.....im sure the gazans appreciate your view.

the poor Palestinians...being used once again.

[azurnoir]

40. Com'on Pelsar you are not reading impaired

it is very much about what is best for the Palestinians at this point they have resources that would provide the base for a very rich economy. one that Sharon swore the Palestinians would never be allowed access to because they could never be allowed to have that much money at their disposal. So lets be honest here what you are really about is keeping Gaza if not all of Palestine at subsistence level, so the final equation here is that your suggestion would alleviate the immediate problem but it would also freeze the Palestinians at a lower level than what their potential is.
Should Egypt do more yes would that excuse Israel no, don't think this will simply go away it will not

[pelsar]

42. that makes no sense at....

explain please

your wrote
So lets be honest here what you are really about is keeping Gaza if not all of Palestine at subsistence level,



now explain to me as clear as you can, how opening up the egyptian border to trade, with an airport and seaport a mere 50kilometer south of gaza. will have physical or metaphysical limitations that restrict the importing and exporting of goods...and limits their economy.

what exactly is this restriction that would freeze the ability to the Palestinians in gaza to live about subsistence level....please be precise as possible because i have absolutely no idea what your talking about.

and i have no idea how opening up the border to egypt will limit the Palestinians in the westbank to living at subsistence level, especially since they re economy is doing very well these days

[azurnoir]

43. I get it now

You want the Palestinians dependent on Egypt rather than dependent on Israel thanks for that clarification but you see the problem is the word dependent why should the Palestinians be dependent on anyone they have the resources there they are just not allowed access to them a bit by Egypt but when it comes to the really big stuff it is solely Israel and only Israel blocking way

[pelsar]

44. its the better choice in the meantime.....

eventually they should be independent....thats the ideal. In the meantime however israel doesnt trust them in gaza not to try to kill israelis ...if in doubt see the last years of over 6,000 kassams and really tiny bullets that made tiny tiny holes in israelis at the borders.

However, they are not/were not trying to kill egyptians.....egypt is far more a friend than israel is and is offers a safer, cheaper route to bring in and bring out goods.

israel has a habit of closing the borders when kassams fly...

egypt wont have that problem, hence the borders will be more consistently open
Israel decides what food and supplies go in via their border controls, that wont exist with egypt since gaza will be deciding for itself what it needs

The gazans get some of the first steps toward independence, better than what they have now. No more starving gazans, no more restrictions on students leaving, hospital visits, etc


whats the negative?
besides the obvious one....that gaza would no longer be in the news and there wouldnt be much to blame israel on....

[azurnoir]

49. There are no negatives in plan -for Israel

but you leave out the air and sea blockades as I have said lift those and Israel can close all other crossing and build a wall to paraphrase another poster from awhile back "that neither Mohammad or Christ could not pole vault"

[pelsar]

51. an the negative for the gazans/egyptian? you forgot to mention it

the air and sea blockade are, in the meantime a given, as i mentioned...what we call reality..thats not going to change.

so what is the negative for the gazans (and "friends") pushing open the egyptian border....you skipped that part.


(and why do i have to mention that walls dont stop kassams or grads. i.e. building a wall will not stop the types of gazan attacks of the past)

[pelsar]

53. and to think it was just getting interesting....post no 51

i think this is when the questions are clear, the background has been clarified and there is no more ambiguities.....

so whats the negative of the Palestinians opening up the gaza/egyptian border.....

[azurnoir]

54. oookay ya got me

I suppose that for the Palestinians there would be some short term alleviation of hunger by allowing the UN to bring in supplies through Rafah and it would be safer for the Palestinians too as this article shows

"Thousands of Palestinian protestors clashed with Egyptian security forces at Rafah Crossing Tuesday, after demanding the crossing be opened in order to ease the Gaza siege.

Palestinians reported of 50 female protestors injured, 15 of them suffering gunshot wounds while the rest lost consciousness.

The Egyptian security forces fought off the protestors, beating them and using dogs and water hoses to push them back. Several Palestinians were arrested by the Egyptian forces."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=197128#197338

I suppose being shot is better than being bombed, that is supposing that Israel will cease bombing the tunnels at Rafah and let Egypt handle the situation

Now as to Egypt whats in it for them I mean they could not have any reason to not want to help their Muslin brothers now would they?

well that is except

pelsar (1000+ posts) Thu Jan-24-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Egypt ...

really doesnt want to help them.....its pretty dangerous for the Egypt to open the gates given the connection between hamas and the muslim brotherhood.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=197748#197829

Perhaps the Arab League could apply even more pressure on Egypt to take on this risk as it is IMO that pressure since OCL that has forced Egypt to allow additional border openings

as to Kassams do you think that Israel locking up the crossings will put a complete stop to this, at least as long as the air and sea blockades remain? What will be Israel's retaliation if there is a kassam launched will IDF allow Egypt to handle that too? I mean at the present moment Israel's main mode of punishment is closing the crossings, absent that option what would be the next resort?

and with that thought any additional safety of the people Gaza could be called in to question also

[azurnoir]

55. your right it is getting interesting n/t

[azurnoir]

16. add to that

as long as a single settlement or apartheid road exists in the West Bank that also is under Israel's boot

[shira]

14. Oslo officially ended last week with the UN recommendation of the Goldstone Report

such a report makes it impossible for the majority of Israelis to back land-for-peace when they know their government has no right to defend if the deal doesn't work out (like the Gaza & Lebanon pullouts).

[azurnoir]

17. more shrill silliness

and when has Israel respected what the UN says or international law for that matter

[shira]

18. face it, Oslo is dead

As for the UN, it's controlled mostly by regressive dictatorial crappy regimes.....why should democracies wish to be controlled by that?

Israel fights according to Int'l Law better than any other military and that's a fact.

[azurnoir]

19. Damn those dirty little 3rd world countries

thinking they have a voice how dare they:sarcasm: as to IDF wonder which Generals will be vacationing on the Spanish Rivera?

[shira]

24. yes, how dare they when they are 1000x worse than Israel could ever imagine - glad you get it!

and i bet it breaks your heart that US, UK, Russian, Chinese, and Sri Lankan Generals get to do whatever they wish.

just loving the hypocrisy - do go on!

[azurnoir]

25. so according to you Israel is superior to the US? n/t

[shira]

28. compare the USA in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq to Israel....you tell me.

and while you're at it, tell me what you think Colonel Kemp would say.

[azurnoir]

41. I would say on a level of proportion they are about equal

yes the actual numbers are high but when the numbers are crunched we'll see think you'll be doing that soon?

as to war crimes very rarely do trials go on while the conflict is on going but as to Col Kemp if he's so gunho about his own troops conduct towards civilians perhaps he could be called as a witness for the prosecution in any future trial it would be fitting doncha' think

[shira]

46. equal? drone attacks in Pakistan alone are at 50:1 civilian/combatant kill ratio

remember what Garlasco said recently...

"Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you're gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that's not a problem. But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld". Garlasco told the interviewer that prior to the invasion of Iraq, he personally recommended 50 high-value targets -Iraqi officials for air strikes, but, according to Garlasco, none of the targets on his list was actually killed. Rather, "a couple of hundred civilians at least" were killed in strikes he recommended.<9> "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco

still thinking they're equal?

========

Iraq's casualty figures from the last 15 years due to US and UK led sanctions and war totals around one million.

In Afghanistan since 2001, b/w 12 and 32 thousand have been killed....even if "only" 12,000 that is more than the total number of Palestinians killed in the last 60 years by Israel.

========

I'm betting that for some reason, those huge numbers above (in comparison to Israel) don't really bother you too much.

"Peace and human rights" for some, not all - right?

[azurnoir]

50. as I said

it is proportional and I find your quoting Garlasco laughable so he's telling the truth about Iraq and lying about Israel kind of tying yourself in knots

but you are quite right in that war crimes may have committed in Iraq and Afghanistan if and when there is a trial do you think Col Kemp would be a reliable witness for the prosecution he is after all according to you an expert and seeing as how he was a Commander in Afghanistan and there for quite possibly himself a war criminal perhaps he could make an immunity plea bargain

[shira]

57. so if it's proportional, why aren't you all choked up about the USA getting away with it?

the main point to quoting Garlasco is to show the clear hypocritical double-standards he employs vs. Israel when compared to the USA.....and also to show the USA is at the very least "as bad" as Israel.

kemp really pisses you off, doesn't he?

so should Canadian General Natynczyk....

“We’re learning what can we adopt from Israeli forces that will enable us to reduce risks to our people”.

that's code you know - for Canada learning how to be sneaky from those Israelis so they can commit war crimes too.

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

58. Is the US getting away with it?

US warned on deadly drone attacks

The US has been warned that its use of drones to target suspected terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan may violate international law.

UN human rights investigator Philip Alston said the US should explain the legal basis for attacking individuals with the remote-controlled aircraft.

He said the CIA had to show accountability to international laws which ban arbitrary executions.

Drones have killed about 600 people in north-west Pakistan since August 2008.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8329412.stm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

credit to dipsydoodle for this

yes the times they are a changing

[shira]

59. looks like the UNHRC is more concerned about the US than Americans for "peace" and HR

... who have been very quiet on this for some reason, ever since Bush was replaced by Obama.

======

FWIW, Americans should be WAY more involved with this but they shouldn't have to answer to the UN.

[azurnoir]

60. IMO America

most certainly should have to answer to both the UN and the ICC, it has been disappointing that Obama has not yet made any moves to reinstate the US membership in the ICC

as to the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan that Americas left is silent is very much untrue perhaps you take more of a look around DU

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. Are you making an effort to answer your own questions, Pelsar?

[pelsar]

22. well what do you think?

why is there no *world wide* effort to open up egyptians border.....those who care for the gazans what are they so afraid of, that there is virtually nothing about the gaza/egyptian border?

i get it, if the concept is to punish israel at the expense of the Palestinians, thats been the formula since day 1....is that still it?

if gaza would be clubmed by using egypt, the whole israel made a *gaza ghetto, starving gazas* would not just be exposed for that sham, but there would be nothing to write about....is that really it?