What South African Jews think of Richard Goldstone

[Fozzledick]

By AMIR MIZROCH

'Fury, outrage, disappointment, betrayal" were the words bandied about, the tone of voice noticeably harsh. In telephone interviews with The Jerusalem Post from Johannesburg this week, there was no escaping the fact that South Africa's Jewish community was incensed.

This Yom Kippur, had Judge Richard Goldstone asked for forgiveness, which he didn't, he would have found that even the most virtuous members of his old community could not bring themselves to grant it. From their golden boy, he has gone to being the wicked son.

There is palpable anger at Goldstone within the mainstream South African Jewish community; a feeling that one of their own has betrayed them, sold them out. Not simply one of their own, but one of their most respected representatives, someone they held in high esteem, a champion of the new South Africa. Here, the much-respected judge has fallen a long way since publishing his scathing report accusing Israel of war crimes in Gaza; his once formidable stature shattered, his golden aura blackened. The once-brave judge who opened up apartheid's can of worms and took on Yugoslav and Rwandan war criminals, did not do the brave thing this time - he did not defend Israel against the Human Rights Council onslaught. He did the opposite - he lent his standing, his Jewishness, to the attack on his people.

If during Operation Cast Lead a small minority of South Africa's Jews signed a petition of "not in my name," then the vast majority of the community is now saying "not in my name" to Goldstone.

Very few people think Goldstone did the right thing by taking the job of heading the UN Human Rights Council fact-finding mission into the Gaza operation. There is some appreciation that his report did, for the first time, criticize Hamas, but there is overwhelming rejection of Goldstone himself and his report's conclusion.

"He sold us out," said an angry Ze'ev Krengel, the usually soft-spoken, liberal, Zionist chairman of the South African Board of Governors. "The damage has been done. He proved that terrorism works, that if you fight from within your own civilians you can win."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254393078544&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[cali]

1. yowzer. that's a sickening and pathetic piece of drivel.

[shira]

2. Goldstone's report is sickening and pathetic drivel

[Fozzledick]

41. It reminds me of a filing by Orly Taitz

Insanely fraudulent accusations with no grounding in reality, motivated by obsessive hatred and fanatic self-righteousness.

[bemildred]

3. I dunno, it's kind of gripping, like a soap opera or something.

And there are some interesting bits buried in it.

The comments are varied and vehement too.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. It was pretty much wall-to-wall nonsense, but it was amusing...

What interesting bits did you find? The one that I saw was how his focus was on how Goldstone's report Israel's actions during OCL 'sold out' the South African Jewish community, yet towards the end of the article he turns around and complained that a protest against OCL outside the main Jewish community centre in Johannesburg. Seems to me to be a bit unfair to link Jews to what Israel does in Gaza and make out that the report is something traitorous and then get his nose out of joint when equally silly people link Jews to what Israel did in Gaza and protest outside a community centre...

[bemildred]

5. Well, I didn't know S. African Jews had "official Jewish community leadership".

The historical bits about other protests and such down there leading up to Goldstone's atrocity I didn't know about either. That starts with the paragraph about the very difficult year for S. African Jews and goes on for nine paragraphs. One gets the feeling that it's a big issue down there. I don't know if that is true or not, but it's something to keep in mind.

Then there are the dramatic cliches: "Here, the much-respected judge has fallen a long way since publishing his scathing report accusing Israel of war crimes in Gaza; his once formidable stature shattered, his golden aura blackened."

Then there are the amusing excursions into "impartiality": "There is some appreciation that his report did, for the first time, criticize Hamas, but there is overwhelming rejection of Goldstone himself and his report's conclusion." and "There are, however, more nuanced voices among some in the Jewish community who know Goldstone very well, and who feel that the blame should be shared by the Israelis. The sense among these people is that in the absence of Israeli cooperation with the Goldstone mission and a genuine attempt to investigate the IDF's actions, the report could never have been balanced. They posit that Goldstone was not reacting to a perception of Israeli excess, and that he is far too objective to have been influenced by the perceptions of others."

And this paragraph: "Without a doubt, Operation Cast Lead has caused tremendous harm to Israel's reputation in South Africa. Some in the Jewish community see the attempt to minimize Gazan civilian casualties as essentially backfiring, primarily because of the extent to which it lengthened the conflict. The net result was bad publicity for Israel, week after week."

[oberliner]

8. I did not know that Mary Robinson turned down the job that Goldstone took

Is that actually true?

[bemildred]

9. The Elders' View Of the Middle East

During the past 16 months I have visited the Middle East four times and met with leaders in Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza. I was in Damascus when President Obama made his historic speech in Cairo, which raised high hopes among the more-optimistic Israelis and Palestinians, who recognize that his insistence on a total freeze of settlement expansion is the key to any acceptable peace agreement or any positive responses toward Israel from Arab nations.

Late last month I traveled to the region with a group of "Elders," including Archbishop Desmond Tutu, former presidents Fernando Henrique Cardoso of Brazil and Mary Robinson of Ireland, former prime minister Gro Brundtland of Norway and women's activist Ela Bhatt of India. Three of us had previously visited Gaza, which is now a walled-in ghetto inhabited by 1.6 million Palestinians, 1.1 million of whom are refugees from Israel and the West Bank and receive basic humanitarian assistance from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Israel prevents any cement, lumber, seeds, fertilizer and hundreds of other needed materials from entering through Gaza's gates. Some additional goods from Egypt reach Gaza through underground tunnels. Gazans cannot produce their own food nor repair schools, hospitals, business establishments or the 50,000 homes that were destroyed or heavily damaged by Israel's assault last January.

We found a growing sense of concern and despair among those who observe, as we did, that settlement expansion is continuing apace, rapidly encroaching into Palestinian villages, hilltops, grazing lands, farming areas and olive groves. There are more than 200 of these settlements in the West Bank.

An even more disturbing expansion is taking place in Palestinian East Jerusalem. Three months ago I visited a family who had lived for four generations in their small, recently condemned home. They were laboring to destroy it themselves to avoid much higher costs if Israeli contractors carried out the demolition order. On Aug. 27, we Elders took a gift of food to 18 members of the Hanoun family, recently evicted from their home of 65 years. The Hanouns, including six children, are living on the street, while Israeli settlers have moved into their confiscated dwelling.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/04/AR2009090402968_pf.html

[oberliner]

10. Non-sequitor?

I know she was one of the "Elders" - what I did not know was whether or not she was offered and declined the position with the UNHRC that Goldstone ended up taking (as the OP claims).

[bemildred]

11. You must not read Shira's posts much.

Edit: it's true, you have to follow the links to read about that.

[oberliner]

12. Let me try to clarify what I am asking about

In the article that was posted, there is this quote:

"If Mary Robinson refused to lead the mission, how could judge Goldstone agree to it?" Krengel asked.

<end of citation>

I do not recall Mary Robinson being asked to lead the mission and refusing to do so. Do you?

[bemildred]

13. I have seen that claim quite a few times now, among them by following Shira's links.

I have no personal knowledge if it is true or not. I don't really care much about it, as I don't see that it means much by itself. If you asked me to speculate, I'd say it's likely true, since I don't think something so obviously verifiable would be lied about, but again, I don't really know, that's just a speculation based on the assumption that the people who write these things think in a rational way about what they are doing.

[bemildred]

14. I am mildly stunned to find that you were not aware of that allegation.

I assumed you were annoyed with me or something.

[bemildred]

15. Here's one:

Why Mary Robinson rejected the mandate accepted by Judge Goldstone
Published by
UN Watch

- at July 2, 2009 in Mary Robinson and Goldstone "Fact Finding" Mission for UNHRC.

http://blog.unwatch.org/?p=405

You will note that it's been around for a while and they provide a quote.

[oberliner]

19. Thanks for the info

Guess it was just a brain lapse on my part.

[bemildred]

23. Well, there is no reason you should, really.

I just assumed you pay attention to the subject like I do. But you might well have better things to do.

I don't think it amounts to much anyway. Ms Robinson objected to the original mandate and withdrew. Mr Goldstone objected to the original mandate and negotiated a modification so the he could proceed. One can speculate about the reasons for the difference, but I don't think the notion that Goldstone hates Israel would point you in the right direction.

[Ken Burch]

32. More to the point...

Why would Judge Goldstone be obligated to refuse to lead the mission just because Mary Robinson refused to do so?
(Assuming she actually did refuse, for the sake of argument)

If Mary Robinson refuses to lead such a mission, does that refusal in and of itself automatically discredit the mission?

Is it not possible, that Ms. Robinson's refusal may simply have been based on the assumption that any findings critical of the Israeli government's actions would automatically be dismissed as "anti-Israel" or even antisemitic if the mission were led by someone who was gentile?

[shaayecanaan]

6. Yeah...

all the respective heat of South African and Israeli politics in the one pot.

The remaining Jews in South Africa tend to be very religious - ie the ultra orthodox, less wealthy and those less able to buy a house in Canada, Australia or the UK.

Interestingly, South African Jews tended to avoid both the old Jerusalem and the new (the United States), preferring the Commonwealth countries that were the first preference of the non-Jewish white South Africans fleeing the end of apartheid.

It reminds me of a witty remark that a pro-apartheid politician shouted at Louis Rabinowitz during a parliamentary debate "we can't be all that bad - after all, you're still here. Is there anywhere that we have gone and you have not followed?"

[oberliner]

7. Interestingly, you have no idea what you are talking about

South African Jews have not "tended to avoid both the old Jerusalem and the new (the United States)"

Putting aside for a moment whatever your calling the United States the new Jerusalem is supposed to mean, it is an indisputable fact that South African Jews have emigrated to the United States and Israel in large numbers.

In fact, the US and Israel represent 2 of the top 3 most common destinations (along with Australia) for emigrating Jewish South Africans since 2000.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Interestingly, the numbers moving to Australia far outnumber those to the US and Israel...

...which were respectively #2 and 3 for destinations after Australia:

'Since 2000, nearly half of the Jewish emigres have gone to Australia (44 percent), followed by the United States (18 percent), Israel (12 percent) and Canada (9 percent).'

http://jta.org/news/article/2008/10/23/110636/safrica102008

[shaayecanaan]

18. I presume that the UK accounted for about 6% of the remainder...

which means that "Blighty and Sons" have a combined score of 59 points (yay!) compared to the Manifest Destiny Duo, who got only 30% of South African Jews (boo).

I suppose that they must not have read all the articles you see here on DU on how terrible it is to be a Jew in the UK (or Australia or Canada by extension, one presumes). Either that or they were beguiled by the bikini girls handing out visas outside the Australian consulate.

It certainly raises some interesting issues. Maybe Australia and Canada could solve the Middle East peace problem by simply offering visas to the settlers in the territories. My guess is at least 60% of the non-religious settlers would take them. Even the threat of doing so might be highly motivational from Israel's point of view.

It would certainly present a challenge to the hasbara brigade: how do we portray an offer by countries to allow Jews to settle there as anti-Semitic? I'm sure that they would manage it somehow.

[oberliner]

21. What articles are there about how terrible it is to be a Jew in Australia?

You almost seem to be belittling any claim of anti-semitism as some kind of invention (or exaggeration) by the "hasbara brigage."

I also would like to know what the source of your initial claim that South African Jews "tend to avoid" the US and Israel - a claim that is clearly false.

[shaayecanaan]

22. Remember...

that there wasn't a level playing field to begin with. South African Jews could qualify for Israeli permanent residence by simply turning up. On the other hand, to qualify for Australian PR, they had to be below 45 and have a skilled occupation and a suitable offer of employment, or buy $1.5 million in government bonds. Consequently, the wealthier, younger and more employable tended to go to Australia. Had it not been for the very quixotic US immigration system, I concede that more would have gone there.

Even so, by a ratio of 3:1, Jews preferred to migrate to Australia. I believe that this justifies my contention that South African Jews, by and large, tended to avoid migrating to Israel if they could help it.

My impression is that many people here consider that the US and Israel are singularly exceptional in terms of their welcoming Jews and Jewish immigrants, and my post was reflecting on the irony of that perception vis-a-vis the realities on the ground.

[oberliner]

24. A fair response

It is certainly interesting that such a sizable percentage have emigrated to Australia.

I would note that Australia does seem to be a popular destination for South African emigres generally. There are over 100,000 people who were born in South Africa who now live in Australia.

I do not believe the US is unique in its welcoming of Jewish immigrants (relative to, say, Australia or Canada).
Israel, on the other hand (and as you alluded do) does make an exceptional effort to facilitate the welcoming process.

However the mandatory military service, requirement to learn a new language, and the dangers associated with Israel's ongoing state of conflict do represent serious disincentives.

[LeftishBrit]

25. I'm surprised at your perception that there are lots of articles here about 'how terrible it is to

be a Jew in the UK'.

I am a Jew in the UK and I don't think it's terrible. There is one other Jew from the UK on this forum (Donald) and I'm pretty sure he doesn't think it's terrible either.

One of my friends is a South African Jew who emigrated to the UK (for work-related reasons as much as anything), and she is very happy here. Another friend is the daughter of a South African Jew who emigrated to the UK many years ago because of her dislike of the apartheid system.

There is some antisemitism everywhere, including the UK, and sometimes there are articles here reporting on it. Personally, I would say that there is more antisemitism in some other parts of Europe, and at least as much in the USA, though it may take somewhat different forms in different places.

[shaayecanaan]

29. Im surprised at your surprise...

most of the time, when somebody posts an article intimating that the ghost of Hitler is walking across the stage in Europe, you are generally the first person to post a response saying that it really isnt that bad being Jewish in Europe.

[LeftishBrit]

37. True; I meant that I hadn't seen many *articles* saying this, as opposed to individuals' opinions

In my experience, many Americans do have either one of three extreme ideas about Europe: (1) it's a liberal paradise with no racism whatsoever; (2)it's still barely changed since the 1930s, or (3) it's being Overrun By the Muslims (public service announcement once again, please don't believe anything in the Daily Mail or the Sun). Neither of these views is at all accurate.

[shaayecanaan]

39. My general impression of the denizens of this board...

is that in foreign policy terms, those from Commonwealth countries skew towards the left, those from Israel tend to be pragmatic, and the Americans here tend towards the right. There correlation between nationality and one's viewpoint seems to be much stronger than the influence of one's religion, in that respect.

I might also venture to suggest that Americans believe the UK to be a hotbed of anti-Semitism for the same reasons that they seem prepared to accept that the National Health Service is some kind of dystopian Communist dictatorship, but that is another topic entirely.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. I know I've seen lots of posts in this forum and upstairs...

And they're not being posted by Jews in the UK, but mainly by Americans. If I had a dollar for every post by some American who insists that the UK and Europe are rabid hotbeds of antisemitism, I'd have made my fortune by now....

[oberliner]

20. Indeed they do

The claim that I was disputing was that South African Jews "tend to avoid" Israel and the United States.

As is evidenced by your link, that claim is false.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I'd say they do tend to avoid them in favour of Australia...

So, the poster who was rather rudely told they didn't know what they were talking about was pretty much there with what they were saying...

[oberliner]

28. Australia is first, US is second, Israel is third - per your own link

The UK and Canada are behind Israel and the US - thus, the poster did not know what they were talking about, and has graciously accepted that correction.

[shaayecanaan]

30. No, I didnt

and its rather disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise.

The United Kingdom is by far the primary destination for South African ‘scatterlings’ with about 40% of the sample living there. The United States and Australia follow at just under 15%. Thereafter, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland also attract a significant proportion of South Africans.

http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/general/will_the_scatterlings_of_south_africa_return_.html

My original contention that SA Jews tended to migrate to Commonwealth countries in the same proportions as their non-Jewish counterparts still holds - about two-thirds each, although clearly Jews for whatever reason preferred Australia much more and the United Kingdom much less than non-Jews. The United States was also more attractive to non-Jews than Jews.

This is quite interesting and I'm not sure of the reasons for this. I am aware that having an ancestral connection to the UK assists with migration although that would not be enough to explain such a large discrepancy. I am also not sure why more Afrikaans speaking South Africans did not migrate to the Netherlands rather than the UK.

[oberliner]

31. My apologies

It looked like from your response that you had acknowledged your error.

I'll just step back and allow you good folks to believe whatever it is you'd like to believe.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. It's a matter of facts, not wanting to believe what you'd like to believe...

Shaay said that SA Jews preferred Commonwealth countries and the stats prove them right. According to the link I posted, only 30% went to the US and Israel combined (and that's with the massive welcome mat Israel puts out), and a massive 44% for Australia alone (which as Shaay pointed out, has much tighter restrictions for immigration). Which, apart from meaning that we're awesome as a destination to live in, also means that Shaay's initial comment was right and didn't deserve a 'you don't know what yr talking about' response...

[oberliner]

35. The claim made was false and the facts in the link you provided speak for themselves

Claim: South African Jews "tend to avoid" moving to the US and Israel.

Fact: The US and Israel are two of the three most common destinations for emigrating South African Jews.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Now for what the claim and the facts actually are....

Claim: South African Jews tended to avoid both the old Jerusalem and the new (the United States), preferring the Commonwealth countries that were the first preference of the non-Jewish white South Africans fleeing the end of apartheid.

Fact: Since 2000, nearly half of the Jewish emigres have gone to Australia (44 percent), followed by the United States (18 percent), Israel (12 percent) and Canada (9 percent).

[oberliner]

38. Thanks for keeping this thread alive and kicking!

Perhaps it will lead to greater exposure for the brilliantly insightful article in the OP.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Uh, I'm posting coz I have something to say and it's a recent thread....

I certainly hope that comment about the article being 'brilliantly insightful' was sarcastic. If it wasn't, why would you think that about the article?

[Fozzledick]

40. delete

responding to wrong message

on third thought: Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting episode of "As the Stomach Turns".

[shira]

16. they're pissed at Goldstone for joining in the demonization campaign

and here's around 20-30 reasons why their anger at him is justified...

The Goldstone Report: A Study in Duplicity
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736

[grassfed]

26. SA and Israel's deep roots

Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria

During the second world war the future South African prime minister John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem. In the second part of his remarkable special report, Chris McGreal investigates the clandestine alliance between Israel and the apartheid regime, cemented with the ultimate gift of friendship - A-bomb technology.

read at http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel