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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine |
question everything (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 12:57 AM Original message |
Ehud Barak: At the U.N., Terrorism Pays |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 01:09 AM Response to Original message |
1. Burma, Sudan, and North Korea are international pariahs |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 05:24 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. dissing the Goldstone Report isn't a "look over there" kneejerk reaction - the report is comical |
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LeftishBrit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 05:31 AM Response to Reply #1 |
3. You are right to an extent; but one point is... |
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oberliner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 08:15 AM Response to Reply #1 |
7. Sudan is no pariah in the Middle East |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 05:46 AM Response to Original message |
4. Another side argument |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:02 AM Response to Reply #4 |
6. I've noticed there's a lot of those floating round... |
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oberliner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 08:22 AM Response to Reply #6 |
9. Calling something "screeching rehearsed side arguments" is also a bizarre tactic |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 11:42 AM Response to Reply #9 |
11. Your unwarranted attack misses the point |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 11:56 AM Response to Reply #11 |
13. no facts cited in the report are disputed directly? did you even read the 24pg MFA response? |
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shaayecanaan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 08:01 AM Response to Reply #13 |
52. I read it... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 08:34 AM Response to Reply #52 |
53. it's not page 414, it's pages 126-127 in paragraph #414 |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 09:13 AM Response to Reply #52 |
54. Full text of paragraph #414: |
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shaayecanaan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 06:54 PM Response to Reply #54 |
72. Must have been looking at the wrong document last night... |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 07:21 PM Response to Reply #72 |
73. I prefer to let a text speak for itself, as opposed to having it interpreted for me. |
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shaayecanaan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 08:36 PM Response to Reply #73 |
81. The Lebanese Army were also ordered by the government... |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 08:51 PM Response to Reply #81 |
83. And a stupid order it was too. I remember that. |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 05:55 AM Response to Reply #72 |
74. at the very least, it shows Gaza Police were combatants and not civilians |
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bemildred (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 09:14 AM Response to Reply #52 |
55. Paragraph 415: |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 09:18 AM Response to Reply #55 |
56. wow - this report could have been written by monkeys, check out the contradiction |
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shaayecanaan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 08:39 PM Response to Reply #56 |
82. I presume that means... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-30-09 03:17 PM Response to Reply #82 |
86. why presume? why didn't Goldstone show that the other 25% did not die due to "facing the enemy"? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 01:12 PM Response to Reply #11 |
17. As does yours |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 01:44 PM Response to Reply #17 |
20. Well first |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 02:24 PM Response to Reply #20 |
22. Have you read the Israeli rebuttal? Its a good place to start and answer many of your questions |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 03:29 PM Response to Reply #9 |
23. No it's not. It's saying what I think and it's not trying to drown out anything.... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 08:18 AM Response to Reply #4 |
8. the facts & conclusions of Goldstone are addressed in my link from post #2 above (MFA report) |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 06:59 AM Response to Original message |
5. Seeing Barak's responsible for what happened in Gaza, it's no surprise to see this response from him |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 11:23 AM Response to Reply #5 |
10. Have you read the rebuttal or not? That is your standard screed isn't it? |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 11:43 AM Response to Reply #10 |
12. Or maybe there is no argument about the facts nt |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 12:00 PM Response to Reply #12 |
14. One issue out of many is the judicial style conclusions drawn without full facts |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 12:03 PM Response to Reply #14 |
15. I'd say chances are slim Goldstone tries defending this report on its (de)merits |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 01:18 PM Response to Reply #15 |
18. Goldstone has been whining about how Israel had its chance so if his product is flawed its their |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:25 PM Response to Reply #18 |
31. More hyperbole, I see. Pointing something out is not *whining*... |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 09:55 PM Response to Reply #31 |
41. Read either the Goldstone Report or the Israeli rebuttal yet? |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 12:18 AM Response to Reply #41 |
45. Why bother asking a question if yr going to answer it immediately afterwards.... |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 01:37 PM Response to Reply #14 |
19. I'm sorry but . . . |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 02:08 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. You missed the key concept...Goldstone made conclusions based on assumptions, not facts |
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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:43 PM Response to Reply #21 |
32. Yes, I understand that |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:57 PM Response to Reply #32 |
35. Some stuff is hard to fake, others less so. Context and consistency is the key. |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 12:13 PM Response to Reply #10 |
16. i agree the MFA's response to Goldstone was mild |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 03:36 PM Response to Reply #10 |
24. I've read it, though I doubt you've read all 600 pages of the Goldstone report... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 04:42 PM Response to Reply #24 |
25. so what do you think about the 24 page initial response provided by the MFA? |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 04:46 PM Response to Reply #25 |
26. Why are you bothering asking when you invent what you want me to think? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:14 PM Response to Reply #26 |
28. While that is not what Shira does, would turnabout not be fair play? |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:19 PM Response to Reply #28 |
29. Here's a link to where she did it to me yesterday.... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:32 AM Response to Reply #29 |
48. Violet, you can play games all you want - the fact is the MFA paper tears Goldstone to shreds |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:33 PM Response to Reply #48 |
58. Posting a link to where you invented me thinking something I don't think isn't game playing... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:44 PM Response to Reply #58 |
61. and yet more evasion and obfuscation |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:50 PM Response to Reply #61 |
62. Huh? Yr the one that barged in with a reply to me that had zero to do with what I said n/t |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 06:00 AM Response to Reply #62 |
75. Deleted message |
Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 03:28 PM Response to Reply #75 |
77. No, like I said yr the one who barged into this subthread with something unrelated to what I said... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 04:33 PM Response to Reply #77 |
80. okay, feel free to correct me on anything Goldstone related |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-30-09 03:26 AM Response to Reply #80 |
84. Go back and reread what I'd just said to you. Clearly you didn't understand it n/t |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:13 PM Response to Reply #24 |
27. I have indeed read both. Specifically the Adv Edited Ver, dtd 15 Sept. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:24 PM Response to Reply #27 |
30. Deleted message |
ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:43 PM Response to Reply #30 |
33. Umbrage is free, take all you want. Your disbelief does not change the facts |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:53 PM Response to Reply #33 |
34. The thing is just because you say something's a fact, it doesn't make it so... |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 07:58 PM Response to Reply #34 |
36. If I did that, I would be no better than Goldstone. |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 08:07 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. If you did what? Apologise for calling me a Hamas supporter? |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 08:57 PM Response to Reply #37 |
38. Deleted message |
Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 09:32 PM Response to Reply #38 |
39. I notice you don't have the same coyness about saying what war crimes you think Hamas committed... |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 09:40 PM Response to Reply #39 |
40. Hamas main crime were the rockets. Not a lot of doubt about their illegality |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 12:16 AM Response to Reply #40 |
44. There's also not a lot of doubt as to the illegality of the use of WP in Gaza... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 06:15 AM Response to Reply #44 |
49. as to WP, if you read the MFA report you would find on pages 20-21... |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:35 PM Response to Reply #49 |
59. Well, if the IDF said so it must be true! |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:43 PM Response to Reply #59 |
60. more obfuscation - how lame |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:51 PM Response to Reply #60 |
63. Well, how about you post what I think? That's yr normal routine... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 06:01 AM Response to Reply #63 |
76. how about instead of obfuscating, you address the main points in post #49? |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 03:32 PM Response to Reply #76 |
78. No, don't think I'm going to do that... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Sep-29-09 04:32 PM Response to Reply #78 |
79. okay, well feel free correcting me on anything Goldstone related |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Sep-30-09 03:28 AM Response to Reply #79 |
85. Maybe if I get really bored and feel like getting into more one-sided 'conversations'... |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:36 PM Response to Reply #44 |
67. There are legitimate uses of WP in combat, and without the IDF saying why the used it |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:41 PM Response to Reply #67 |
68. But seeing the IDF lied originally and denied ever using it, why would anyone believe them now? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 06:53 PM Response to Reply #68 |
71. It pretty hard to fudge all the records and keep the content and context right |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 10:46 PM Response to Reply #37 |
42. If you read #27 you will see that I said both sides... |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 12:21 AM Response to Reply #42 |
46. What's the 'in an absolute view' thing mean then? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:00 PM Response to Reply #46 |
64. I am really beginning to doubt you have read either Goldstone or the rebuttal |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:21 PM Response to Reply #64 |
66. But why are you saying yr just beginning when you told me yesterday I hadn't read them? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 06:02 PM Response to Reply #66 |
70. Because I am continually giving you the benefit of the doubt |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 12:31 AM Response to Reply #27 |
47. Not sure why my post was deleted, so here's one with another question... |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 07:49 AM Response to Reply #47 |
51. what's missing, Violet, are the circumstances, like the "fog of war" Richard Kemp speaks about... |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 03:31 PM Response to Reply #51 |
57. Not sure why you replied to my post when it didn't address what I was saying to PP... |
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Alamuti Lotus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Sep-27-09 11:48 PM Response to Original message |
43. this old terrorist bitching and moaning in a Journal of Record for economic terror |
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shira (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 06:19 AM Response to Reply #43 |
50. you'd find Barak is correct if you read the MFA's report (see link in post #2 above) |
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azurnoir (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:11 PM Response to Original message |
65. Palestinians seek Barak's arrest |
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Violet_Crumble (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Sep-28-09 05:42 PM Response to Reply #65 |
69. Guess Barak's going to be rethinking that trip n/t |
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