Israel's cluster bomb maps useless, says head of (Lebanese) Army demining center

[Alamuti Lotus]

Israel's cluster bomb maps useless, says head of Army demining center

NABATIEH: The information provided by Israel concerning the locations of dropped cluster bombs during the summer 2006 war was useless, according to the head of the Lebanese Demining Center Brigadier Mohammad Fahmi. “What benefit can we get from such information after three years, and after witnessing 50 deaths and 350 injuries?” he asked on Friday during the launch of a new NGO, the Peace Generation Organization for Demining (PGOD).

The organization, funded by an Iranian foundation, was launched during a celebration held at the Jaber Cultural Center in the southern town of Nabatieh over the weekend.

The head of Hizbullah’s Loyalty to the Resistance parliamentary bloc, MP Mohammad Raad, MP Yassin Jaber and representative of Lebanese Army Commander General Jean Kahwaji attended the ceremony along with an array of prominent political figures.

Fahmi gave a speech during the gathering in which he described the severity of cluster bomb related injuries. “After the summer 2006 war Lebanon faced a problem beyond its capacities,” he said, referring to the millions of cluster bombs dropped by Israel on Lebanese soil.

“It’s true that Israel provided the Lebanese Army with information concerning the locations of dropped cluster bombs but what benefit can we get from such information after three years, and after 50 casualties and 350 injuries?” he asked.

The number of cluster bombs victims has been increasing since the end of the war in 2006 and has now reached 350. On Wednesday two young siblings were wounded by a cluster bomb as they gathered firewood in the village of Toulin, close to the Israel border.

Many of the victims of unexploded cluster bombs are children under the age of 12.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=105460

[Kurska]

1. Doesn't the map help prevent future causalities?

Maybe if all you want is martyrs it is useless.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. If they hadn't delayed giving the map for three years, it would have prevented many deaths...

'“It’s true that Israel provided the Lebanese Army with information concerning the locations of dropped cluster bombs but what benefit can we get from such information after three years, and after 50 casualties and 350 injuries?” he asked.'

Why do you think anyone should be doing cartwheels of gratitude after so many needless deaths due to Israel fucking around?

[Kurska]

3. What you consider "Israel fucking around" is normal for military conflicts.

How many countries usually handover a map of where they attacked the enemy right after the fighting stops? Especially when the war ends in a bloody stalemate and that side has no reason to help a enemy that still poses a threat.

I think it is a good thing that Israel handed over the maps to prevent future casualities, but by every established military tradtion Israel wasn't required to do that. If you're going to turn up your nose over a act of kindness and whine about it not happening soon enough, don't expect such consideration AT ALL in the future.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. And how does that justify fucking around and the continuing deaths of civilians?

It doesn't in any way. Delaying handing over a map is not something that should be applauded or condoned...

btw, I don't know the answer to yr question. Could you tell me what the answer is?

[Kurska]

5. You're acting from the assumption that Israel was required to hand over the maps.

They were not, there is no law or established military tradition that requires them to. Handing over the maps at all was a act of kindness, one that may not be given in the future if all it is used for is to blast Israel for not doing it sooner.

The answer to the question is not very many.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Just wait for the whining when it turns out that the data is not perfect

Which of course it can not be due to the nature of combat.

[Alamuti Lotus]

9. maybe a few of those belong in your neighborhood, then we can talk callously about "whining" as well

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. I've lived in areas with unexploded ordinance. Building was at times an adventure

No maps to say where they were either.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. You've got a longer list of experiences than Coastie ever did! ;)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. A number of areas in California were used as bombing ranges that later were turned back for civilian

use. Mostly practice bombs, but that is why there are EOD teams.

Event I referenced was in question was Ridgecrest, CA.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. That's not the same as a war-zone with cluster bombs in it n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

15. No, I'm not making that assumption at all..

I'm assuming that anyone with a shred of decency and concern for the lives of civilians would not have delayed handing over a map for three years. Which explains why Israel fucked around for so long...


And I see that shaayecanaan has answered the question you asked me, and given the information they've supplied, I'd take their answer as being the accurate one...

[shaayecanaan]

7. No, its not...

How many countries usually handover a map of where they attacked the enemy right after the fighting stops?

Most of them. About 20 different fighting groups co-operated with UNMACC (the UN Mine Action Clearing Centre) in trying to clean up unexploded ordinance in the former Yugoslavia after the Kosovo War. The United States supplied data on dropped ordinance to the UN within three months of the end of the initial conflict against the Taliban in Afghanistan. It did the same in Iraq by September 2003. In the first Gulf War it provided data often within 72 hours of individual air strikes. Notwithstanding that, about 400 Iraqis have died from UO, and about 300 Vietnamese continue to die each year from UO still in Vietnam.

Increasingly, most countries have realised that the use of submunitions is inherently immoral, and have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions. There are only four Western countries that have not:-

Greece
Poland
United States
Israel

Especially when the war ends in a bloody stalemate and that side has no reason to help a enemy that still poses a threat.

The people killed by unexploded cluster munitions generally aren't "the enemy". They're civilians, particularly farmers, and children. Cynically withholding data whilst children die due to unexploded ordinance is generally considered immoral by most reasonable people. Certainly it runs counter to the IDF's propaganda that it makes every effort to avoid civilian casualties.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Until there is a better tactical option, cluster munitons will be used

They are the ideal weapon for soft targets like artillery and rocket launchers. When using fire finder radars, there is enough TLE that sub munitions are the appropriate response.

Since it tends to be fairly obvious where unitary or sub munition weapons have been used, maps are not particularly essential.

Next thing you will be complaining about is their color and its similarity to food packets

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Then the IDF should stop lying about trying to avoid civilian casualties...

Also, the claim you make in the second line of yr post is yet another incorrect one. I've addressed it further down the thread with some information from credible sources and experts....

This may have escaped yr attention, but people complain about the use of cluster bombs, not because of their colour or whatever, but because they lead to far too many civilian deaths, especially children. That you can be so flippant about something most folk in this forum are opposed to because of its effect on civilian populations, really does come across as incredibly callous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. It is the tactical reality. Also the alternatives are worse (carpet bombing/shelling)

It appears that the IDF did not use cluster munitions in Gaza, so you should consider it a step forward.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Then they should stop lying about trying to avoid civilian casualties...

They're clearly not....

[Alamuti Lotus]

8. well, dropping millions of the damn things in the last 3 days of the war..

indicates that "preventing many deaths" is a propaganda afterthought at best, and the failed display was little more than a PR show anyway. Not that the 2006 tantrum was the first employment of these weapons, these devices had been employed throughout the whole duration of the criminal occupation since 1982 (less so in 1978, as this was directed more at supporting their first quisling Major Sa`ad Haddad and did not have the approach of mass terrorism against the population that later aggressions would typify), and have indeed murdered or maimed hundreds more in the process.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Source for your claim?

[Alamuti Lotus]

14. there were several claims packed in there; which are you referring to?

some relatively gentle sources on the Israeli quisling, Lebanese army traitor Saad Haddad:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925940,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saad_Haddad

2006 cluster bomb tantrum:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/01/world/fg-cluster1
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19670&Cr=Leban&Cr1
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0919-03.htm

IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

Mass terrorism against the population and general acts of aggression:
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
Israel threatens Lebanon with mass destruction
http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/350/355/april-war/Limited-War-in-Lebanon.html

1993 Lebanon war

On July 25, 1993, Israeli forces launched a week-long attack against Lebanon named Operation Accountability in Israel and the Seven-Day War in Lebanon. Israel claimed three purposes to the operation, to strike directly at Hezbollah, to make it difficult for Hezbollah to use southern Lebanon as a base for striking Israel, and to displace refugees in the hopes of pressuring the Lebanese government to intervene against Hezbollah. <1> The affected civilian population included both Lebanese and Palestinian refugees.

During the week-long operation, Israel bombarded thousands of houses and buildings resulting in 300,000 civilians being displaced from southern Lebanon towards Beirut and other areas.<5> Israeli forces also destroyed Lebanese infrastructure and civilian targets, such as major electricity stations and bridges, and failed to take adequate measures to minimise civilian casualties, and may have used weapons inappropriate for the environment.

Cluster bomb use before 2006:
http://mcc.org/clusterbombs/news/lebanon/thenandnow.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/28/world/use-of-cluster-bombs-is-confirmed-by-israel.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/26/world/cluster-bomb-remains-found-by-israeli-troops.html

Real heroes:
Nansen Award: Mine clearers in Lebanon win Nansen Refugee Award

"Chris Clark and his Lebanese and international staff in the UN Mine Action Programme have worked courageously to clear southern Lebanon of the remnants of war and clusterbombs," Guterres said in a special message. "Through their painstaking work and devotion, the teams created the conditions for a safe and dignified return home for almost 1 million displaced Lebanese," he added.

"This recognizes the deminers who have given their lives, limbs and sight," Clark told journalists at a press conference in the Lebanon capital of Beirut on Monday. The former British soldier will be in Geneva on October 6 with Lebanese mine clearer Jamal Hammoud to receive the Nansen Award during the annual meeting of UNHCR's governing Executive Committee.

In mid-2006, over a period of five weeks, Israeli clusterbombs scattered between 2.6 and 4 million bomblets over urban and agricultural areas of southern Lebanon. More than 750,000 Lebanese fled the south and lived as internally displaced people in northern Lebanon, while another 250,000 people fled to Syria or further afield.

UNMACC-SL's deminers found and destroyed almost 150,000 clusterbomb submunitions in villages and agricultural land polluted during the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah militants. Before 2006, the organization cleared some 60,000 landmines, legacy of the long Israeli occupation that ended in 2000. At least 20 civilians and 14 mine clearers have been killed by unexploded ordnance in the south since the war and scores more injured.

"During our daily task of clearing remnants of war and cluster munitions, we were finding bombs inside houses, in gardens, in churches and mosques," mine clearer Hammoud told Monday's press conference. He said many people tried to clear their own homes of bomblets, risking their lives. "They had no choice. They needed to use their lands and live in their houses. They needed to survive."

There are many more; research on the subject is quite easy. However, in the brief course of compiling this, I have learned that I was incorrect: they had indeed used cluster bombs and other forms of landmines in support of their proxy army of traitors and mercenaries in 1978, my awareness on the matter was that it was primarily armor and air support and not the same tactics of widespread terrorism that followed; well, can't say that I was surprised.

[stranger81]

38. oooohh, *snap*!

The crickets from "progressive" -- what a joke -- are deafening.

[Alamuti Lotus]

45. eh, I get that a lot. *nt

[shira]

47. what do you make of the majority of IDF kills in Lebanon being fighters - which is better than NATO?

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=8&x_article=1195

read the entire article, please - and let me know your thoughts on the intentionally false information disseminated during and after the conflict that this article describes.

one more thing - you seem to have some connection to Lebanon - did you live there, have friends there....?

thanks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Since it tends to be fairly obvious where unitary or sub munition weapons have been used,

maps are not particularly essential. They are much more important for minefields and booby traps.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Since you tend to claim a lot of things that turn out not to be the case at all...

...I'll go with what I've read from organisations that have a whole lot more credibility than some anonymous poster on an internet forum...

Here's some info on cluster bombs for those who are interested:

Human Rights Watch has called for a global moratorium on use of cluster bombs because they have been shown to cause unacceptable civilian casualties both during and after conflict. Cluster bombs have a wide dispersal pattern and cannot be targeted precisely, making them especially dangerous when used near civilian areas. Cluster bombs are usually used in very large numbers and have a high initial failure rate which results in numerous explosive "duds" that pose the same post-conflict problem as antipersonnel landmines.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/arms/cluster-bck1031.htm



The head of the UN's demining programme in Kosovo has blamed Nato for the slow progress made to clear up unexploded bombs in the province.

The latest victim, a 10-year-old boy, was killed on Sunday when he walked into an unmarked field of cluster bombs.

Sometimes the first time we knew there was an area was when there was a casualty reported

More than 100 people have now died from bomb and mine injuries since the end of the war in Kosovo, in June last year.

John Flanagan, the head of the Mine Action Co-Ordination Centre in Pristina, says essential information about the precise location of cluster bomb sites was withheld from his group.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/761092.stm

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Since you tend to reject that which is beyond your limited experience

- HRW is not exactly a unbiased and as I predicted their report has been of no consequence

- Flanagan's complaints are the exactly the kind to be expected from Hezbollah. Precision recording of what went where is not possible in combat. However, the situation in Kosovo is different than that of Hezbollah in Lebanon

[Violet_Crumble]

26. No, I don't tend to do that. I tend to believe experts over you....

..when yr saying something the opposite of what others who have expertise in the area being discussed do. Rather than shoot the messenger, you could have tried to explain what was incorrect about what HRW said about cluster bombs in Afghanistan, but you didn't, which makes it very clear that what they said was correct. Clearly locations are important to have in order to save the lives of civilians, particularly children, and Flanagan's complaints are exactly the kind to be expected from anyone who wants locations so that they can be cleared up and no longer pose a threat to innocent civilians. No difference there whether it was Kosovo or Lebanon...

[stranger81]

39. but HRW is biased and hates Israel!

Only anti-semites believe unexploded, forgotten cluster bombs are dangerous.

:sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

19. It seem "almost" as if IAF dropped these bombs

many in the last day or two of the conflict, after a cease fire agreement had been reached to create a defacto mine field on the Lebanese border

[shira]

22. looks like they dropped them to create a DMZ in order to prevent Hezbollah from getting too cozy on

Israel's border.

If millions of cluster bomblets were dropped in order to kill people, we should expect tens of thousands of deaths as a result. It looks like this was a defensive measure - not to say I agree with it - just saying.....it's better than building an "apartheid" wall or re-occupying Southern Lebanon, right?

[azurnoir]

27. No but I would hardly expect you to understand

why creating a mine field that kills civilians is wrong; well least as the victims are not Israelis and as far as an Apartheid wall Israel can build one if they wish there is not much traffic between Israel and Lebanon, but it would have to be on Israeli territory which could be why there is not one, as I have said in the past when Israel finally sets its borders it can dome it self if it wishes

[shira]

29. never said I agreed with it, did I? as for the apartheid wall and re-occupation, that was sarcasm

makes no sense to me and appears indefensible - regardless whether millions of bomblets were dropped and few lives have been lost.

sorry to burst your strawman bubble

[azurnoir]

31. you didn't burst anything n/t

[shaayecanaan]

28. Absolute rubbish...

looks like they dropped them to create a DMZ in order to prevent Hezbollah from getting too cozy on Israel's border.

They're not supposed to "create a DMZ" - they're not mines. They're supposed to explode immediately. Unfortunately, the relatively cheap cluster bombs Israel used in 2006 had a fairly high dud rate, meaning large numbers of unexploded sub-munitions now clutter Lebanon (and not just the old security zone, which is another problem with your rather half-baked "theory").

Those munitions pose virtually no threat to Hezbollah fighters at all, except maybe for the ones charged with locating and cleaning them up. They pose a much greater threat to children stumbling across them.

Your logic is rather like suggesting that Israel is entitled to poison the Litani river, on the basis that someone from Hezbollah might drink from it.

[shira]

30. so why do you think they did it?

[shaayecanaan]

32. As a collective punishment...

pound the Shia hard enough and maybe they'll give up their support for Hezbollah. Or maybe they didnt particularly give a fuck how many civilians died.

[shira]

34. pretty weak guess on your part

if millions of cluster bombs were dropped, the death toll should be at least 10 to 20x the final casualty count.

[shaayecanaan]

42. Pretty crap attempt at logic on your part...

Vietnam was heavily mined and bombed for over a decade. The death rate due to UO is about 300 a year. Lebanon was bombed for about 35 days. The death rate due to unexploded ordinance for the last three years has been about 16 per year.

The difference in death rates is largely due to the limited duration of the conflict, rather than any restraint on the part of the Israelis. In fact, about 10 days into the conflict Israel had largely exhausted its munitions stockpile and had to urgently petition the United States for more.

To make any estimate of death rates due to UO, you need to know the dud rate for the munitions involved. You also need to recognise that some duds simply fail to explode, some explode spontaneously at a later stage, and others explode when disturbed, which obviously is the main danger from civilians' point of view.

You should also realise that unexploded cluster munitions in Lebanon have killed far more people than Hamas' Qassam rockets, which is something to bear in mind the next time you feel inclined to remark that only "a few" people have been killed.

[shira]

43. just saying, with the tons of munitions dropped it's obvious the IDF was not motivated to

just arbitrarily kill the Lebanese people, but if it makes you feel better to think the IDF is so incompetent in their genocidal goals - have at it.

[bemildred]

36. I have seen the theory that it was a matter of clearing out obsolete inventory.

Given the rate of unexploded sub-munitions, that may have a kernel of truth in it, though I expect that there were a number of other rationales, including several mentioned in this thread. One could even argue that it was a matter of covering the IDF's retreat.

[stranger81]

41. I think they did it for the same reason they gave the Lebanese the map:

out of kindness.

Also, I like turtles.

[stranger81]

40. of course, because everyone knows cluster bombs are good at distinguishing

Hezbollah from other targets.

Only anti-semites think Israel dumps tons of massively destructive weapons on other countries to kill people.

[Taitertots]

33. "Millions of cluster bombs"

Really, Millions?

[bemildred]

35. 'Million bomblets' in S Lebanon

Please note, this is the ones that failed to explode, not the total number in the munitions dropped on S. Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5382192.stm:
Up to a million cluster bomblets discharged by Israel in its conflict with Hezbollah remain unexploded in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.

The UN's mine disposal agency says about 40% of the cluster bombs fired or dropped by Israel failed to detonate - three times the UN's previous estimate.

---

Mr Clark said Israel fired up to 6,000 bombs, rockets and artillery a day into Lebanon during the 34-day conflict.

---

Hundreds of bomblets are packed into the cluster bombs, which are fired from the ground or dropped by aircraft.

Etc.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. The numbers are all over the map in terms of how many were fired and how many failed

I have seen factor of 3X in the estimates, and 5X in extreme cases. Same with failure rates. 40% is so far out of spec, that it begs credulity.

In the end there are no hard numbers out there and everybody is pretty questimating as they go. The best source out there would be the report the IDF issued on where they targeted them. Not in terms of location, but in terms of type and quantity of rounds expended, presuming the IDF included that data. I have not seen that published publicly anywhere at this time.

[bemildred]

44. I was just supplying a source for the "millions of cluster bombs" figure for Mr Tots.

It is certainly true that many sources will fudge the numbers for their own reasons, but I would think that the UN demining agency would be experienced and have less reason to fudge than the IDF or Hezbollah, not having a dog in the fight. I don't really see where haggling about precision is to the point anyway, it seems clear that plenty were dropped, and there are plenty laying around.

[shira]

46. From Israel's MFA - the IDF supplied UNIFIL with maps about cluster munitions right after war

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Legal+and+operational+aspects+of+the+use+of+cluster+bombs+5-Sep-2006.htm

5. Clean-Up efforts after hostilities

On conclusion of hostilities, questions arise from both sides regarding unexploded ordnance left behind on the battlefield. For example, many deadly explosives fired by Hizbullah against northern Israeli population centers still remain unexploded. Israeli civil defense authorities are consequently making great efforts to locate and disarm these weapons in order to protect Israeli civilians from further harm. Israel regards the welfare of Lebanese civilians in same manner. Immediately after the cease-fire the IDF gave UNIFIL maps indicating the likely locations of unexploded ordnance, to aid the international attempt to clear these areas and avoid injury to the population. Furthermore, immediately after the cease-fire the IDF distributed warning notices to the residents in the areas of warfare, and recommended that they wait a few days before returning to the south until the UNIFIL forces were deployed there and the area had been cleared of unexploded ordnance.

so much for the lie that it took 3 years.

:eyes:

[Scurrilous]

48. Lebanon's Landmine Soccer Team

http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,34912410001_1918737,00.html?iid=digg_share