Obsessed with Defamation and Slander

[Ken Burch]

By Zaid Shakir




http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/may_jun_09_shakir





I."...The shameless allegation that Islam is the new fascism would be bad enough were it presented in isolation. However, it is coupled
with allegations that Muslims supported Hitler and the Nazis during World War II.

Such allegations are a foul misrepresentation of the historical record and serve to dishonor the memory of all of the courageous Muslims who selflessly fought and died in defense of the European democracies, even though many of their own lands were still suffering under the yoke of European colonization.


"At the heart of these baseless and base allegations is the fact that the Palestinian Mufti of Jerusalem, Al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni, had close ties to the German leader Adolf Hitler, and even spent part of the war in Berlin.





While this much is true, al-Husayni's sentiments were not those of the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians, to say nothing of the rest of the world's Muslims. To use al-Husayni's ties to Hitler as a means to defame and discredit Islam and Muslims as fascists is misleading and has to be challenged."




"In fact, there were several Palestinian brigades and tens of thousands of Palestinians in the British Army who actively fought the spread of fascism.


The existence of these Palestinian brigades was more indicative of the mood of the Arab and Muslim masses than al-Husayni's misguided actions.


Therefore, when al-Husayni issued his call for a Muslim jihad against the allied forces his plea was largely ignored. The fascist jihad never materialized. The reason for that is simple. It had no significant support from the masses of Muslims..."




"The Palestinian Muslims were not alone in terms of their participation in the anti-fascist effort.

Hundreds of thousands of North and West African Muslims assisted in the liberation of France from the German occupation and the French Vichy government.


As many as half of the free French forces that landed in southern France in 1944 were Africans, the overwhelming majority of them Muslims.


Among their ranks was a group referred to as Senegal's Secret Soldiers, a group of Senegalese Muslims who played a significant role in the liberation of France from Nazi occupation."




II."One of this country's staunchest Muslim allies in the struggle against the fascist menace was the Moroccan king, Muhammad V.

He not only worked strenuously to insure that Moroccans supported neither the French Vichy government nor the Nazi effort in North Africa, but he also courageously supported Moroccan Jews during the war years, saving them from extermination at the hands of the Vichy regime.


Muhammad V's efforts were so heroic in this latter regard that the Moroccan Jewish community has initiated an effort to have him become the first Arab to receive Yad Vashem's "Righteous Among the Nations" award."




III. "Perhaps the greatest testimony to the Muslims who actively opposed fascism is the work of the Paris Mosque in protecting Jewish children from the Nazis, who were sending French Jews-men, women, and children-to perish in the death camps of Eastern Europe.


The mosque itself was built by the French government in appreciation of the 500,000 Muslims who had fought for France during World War I, with 100,000 losing their lives in the trenches.


It is estimated that the mosque helped to save over 1,700 Jewish children, by providing them with shelter, transit, and Muslim names. A pamphlet that circulated among Algerian Muslims in Paris at the onset of the Nazis' campaign against the Jews in France stated:"


"Yesterday at dawn, the Jews of Paris were arrested.

The old, the women, and the children.

In exile like ourselves, workers like ourselves.

They are our brothers.

Their children are like our own children.

The one who encounters one of his children must give that child shelter and protection for as long as misfortune-or sorrow-lasts.

Oh, man of my country, your heart is generous."

[Ken Burch]

1. This is some history few in this country knew about.

It should change a few assumptions about Arabs and Muslims.

[henank]

2. Please explain

The Mufti. Husseini. Their pact with Hitler.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. I'd love to hear yr explanation...

Do you disagree with what was said in the article? If so, why?

[Ken Burch]

15. henank disagrees with reality, when it disagrees with him.

The original article demolishes over six decades of lies about the moral character of the Arab world.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. What do you expect from *postmodernist deconstructionists*? n/t

*snicker*

[Ken Burch]

21. Does henank actually know how to spell those words?

n/t.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. No, I borrowed it from Sezu n/t

[Ken Burch]

23. Now he'll be wanting you to give it back.

Sezu hates it when the other kids steal his toys.

[Sezu]

25. Least I have some toys other than the pork chop your

parents had to hang around your neck.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Okay, someone's going to have to explain Sezu's comment to me...

What did it mean?

[Ken Burch]

31. It was from an old joke about the kid that was so ugly

that his parents could only get the dogs(or possibly the other kids)to play with him by hanging a pork chop around his neck.

Or something vaguely like that.

It didn't actually have much to do with the thread, but he was basically getting in a dig in response to the dig I got in on him in the post before that. Is that way TOO much explanation, now?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Thanks. I hadn't heard that one before.... n/t

[shira]

32. Edward Said on the Mufti and other resources

Edward Said:
"Hajj Amin al-Husayni represented the Palestinian Arab national consensus, had the backing of the Palestinian political parties that functioned in Palestine, and was recognized in some form by Arab governments as the voice of the Palestinian people."

=====

“Although there was ample proof to arrest him as a war criminal after the war, the Allies made not effort to do so. They were deterred by Husseini’s prestige in the Arab world. In 1946, Yugoslavia, indicted him for war crimes and asked for his extradition, but the Allies were afraid of the storm in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.” The French allowed him to escape to Egypt. (Encyclopedia of the Holocaust)

=====

"Haj Amin's popularity among the Palestinian Arabs and within the Arab states actually increased more than ever during his period with the Nazis,...large parts of the Arab world shared this sympathy with Nazi Germany during the Second World War." (Haj Amin's biographer, Zvi Epeleg)

much more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

=========================

Ken, I agree it's unfair to hold the Palestinian people responsible for Haj Amin's actions. But whether they were for or against him, the Mufti was their leadership for some time and he had popular support from Arab leaders abroad. THAT leadership is what the Jews of the time period had to deal with whether they liked it or not.

=========================

The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.

William Ziff, in his book "The Rape of Palestine," summarizes:

Implicated in the 1920 disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life.

Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.

As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment:

"Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

[Ken Burch]

40. I'm glad you mentioned the appointment of the Grand Mufti

Were you aware that the Grand Mufti(btw, he was the ONLY Mufti ever called the "Grand Mufti", with the adjective "grand" added by the British to further swell the man's ego?)was appointed to the position AGAINST THE WILL of the Palestinian Muslim community?

Herbert Samuel, the Mandatory governor, personally selected Al-Husanyi to the post, despite the fact that the Palestinian Muslim community voted against him when they were polled on the matter. In the vote they held, Al-Husanyi finished FOURTH. A member of the more moderate Nashabibi family actually won the vote. Despite this, Samuel appointed Al-Husanyi to the post for the sole reason that members of his family had traditionally held it. The British Government was to blame for the crimes of the Grand Mufti, and for whatever influence he held. If they had respected the will of the Palestinian Muslim community, the history of the entire area would have been radically different.

Al-Husanyi was a vile man. But no one other than Al-Husanyi should ever have had to suffer for what he did. And it's time for CAMERA/FLAME and AIPAC to stop invoking Al-Husanyi as if his existence justifies everything.

[oberliner]

42. He was not the only Mufti ever called the Grand Mufti

There are clerics around the world who have carried and do carry the title of Grand Mufti including the current Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. He was the first Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, I think...

Wasn't the title bestowed by the British? During the Ottoman Empire they'd been known as Qadis or something like that...

[oberliner]

47. Possibly, but there was a Grand Mufti of Egypt in the 19th Century

The title of "Grand Mufti" pre-dates this particular Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and continues to be used to this day.

[Ken Burch]

49. What we're saying is that there was no such title as "Grand Mufti OF JERUSALEM" prior to the Mandate

The British invented that title.

[oberliner]

50. Thank you for the clarification

And also for the citation. I have not read that book you mentioned but I will try to do so.

[Ken Burch]

53. Glad to hear it.

BTW, I always appreciate the fact that it's possible to have a reasonable discussion with you in this forum. That can't be said for all the inmates of I/P.

[Ken Burch]

48. Before that, the equivalent title, I've just discovered was "Qadi"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti_of_Jerusalem

[Lithos]

78. He would have been the first

Mostly because prior to the Mandate, the role would have been assumed by the "Grand Mufti" of Constantinople. Remember, the title "Grand Mufti" is a title given to the head Islamic cleric of a country much like the "Chief Rabbi" in various countries. Prior to the Mandate, Jerusalem would have been rolled up under the Ottoman Empire.

This is not a case of the British inventing a title, but rather a case where the role had not been needed before. The title of "Grand Mufti" is an older one which predates the Mandate.

L-

[Ken Burch]

45. Among the ones in Jerusalem, I mean

There were others but they were in other places. In THIS case, it was the British that added the "Grand". Tom Segev documented this in "One Palestine, Complete". I assume you'd trust him on this.

[shira]

75. seems you're arguing a straw-man

Can you show examples from DU or even CAMERA that link the Palestinian people to Naziism back in the 40's?

Let's at least agree that the Mufti didn't act alone, had other regional leaders who supported his despicable brand of nationalism, and that the Jews of the time period had to deal with that.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. No he doesn't - he remembers to say that.

Also, Yitzhak Shamir, a future prime minister of Israel, was a member of the Lehi, who also attempted to work with the Nazis.

[Ken Burch]

14. The point is, the majority DIDN'T suport Nazis.

What the author is addressing in the original article is the slanderous myth that the vast majority of the Palestinian community and the Arab community as a whole were hotbeds of Nazism. Clearly this was not the case. There were some that were pro-Nazi(as there were pro-Nazi Americans, Britons, Canadians and probably Australians and New Zealanders as well) but many more that weren't.

Thus, the argument that the treatment received by Palestinians in 1948 was justified because they were supposedly partisans of Hitler is discredited. The Palestinians and the Arab world were not saints(neither was any OTHER community or nation on this score, as the memory of the German-American Bund, Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh and Prescott Bush's investment portfolio should remind us)but they were not a particular evil.

In fact, since Arabs are mainly dark-skinned and brown-eyed, with a significant number of them having at least a partly Jewish heritage, Hitler would likely have sent THEM to the camps had the Afrika Corps prevailed over the forces of Viscount Montgomery.

Six decades of apologies are needed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. Permit me to quote:

"At the heart of these baseless and base allegations is the fact that the Palestinian Mufti of Jerusalem, Al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni, had close ties to the German leader Adolf Hitler, and even spent part of the war in Berlin.

While this much is true, al-Husayni's sentiments were not those of the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians, to say nothing of the rest of the world's Muslims."



Had that passage from the article you replied to escaped your notice? If not, which part of that do you want further explanation of?

[Ken Burch]

12. The Mufti was addressed in the OP. The OP showed that the Mufti's views were not shared

by MOST Palestinians.

And the pact was the MUFTI's pact, Not "their" pact.

The article clearly discredits the "Palestinians were pro-Nazi" smear.

[Howardx]

5. i have found this to be an effective antidote

to the grand mufti nonsense

"In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

as usual the israelis are projecting.

[Sezu]

6. You are so full of it. Israel BANNED 'em

Palestine still celebrates the Mufti with his picture alongside Arafat as heroes of the resistance. THAT'S the fucking difference but I'm sure it's AOK with you.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Not actually true.

In May 48 Lehi was "dissolved" and integrated into the IDF, with its leaders getting amnesties.

In September 48, it struck again, assassinating a UN envoy trying to mediate peace. This time, one of the leaders of the assassination was jailed briefly (he was released the next year, due to the amnesty), while the rest were released.

In 49 the Fighters List, a politial party founded by the Lehi movement, won a seat in the Knesset, but it lost it again two years late.

In 80, Israel instituted the "Lehi ribbon", a decoration for former members.

Yitzhak Shamir, a former Lehi member, went on to become PM of Israel.

So I'm afraid it's not the poster you are replying to who is "full of it".

[Howardx]

8. perhaps...

learning israel's REAL history would benefit some of the fantasists who post here in support of her.

[azurnoir]

13. Even closer

first Lehi's also known as the Stern gang an offshoot Irgun. This is Lehi's statement of goals (would that be charter?}

1 - The nation: The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.
2 - The homeland: The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.
3 - The nation and its land: Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will.
4 - The Goals

1 - Redemption of the land.
2 - Establishment of sovereignty.
3 - Revival of the nation.
There is no sovereignty without the redemption of the land, and there is no national revival without sovereignty.

These are the goals of the organization during the period of war and conquest:
5 - Education: Educate the nation to love freedom and zealously guard Israel's eternal patrimony. Inculcate the idea that the nation is master to its own fate. Revive the doctrine that "The sword and the book came bound together from heaven" (Midrash Vayikra Rabba 35:8)
6 - Unity: The unification of the entire nation around the banner of the Hebrew freedom movement. The use of the genius, status and resources of individuals and the channeling of the energy, devotion and revolutionary fervour of the masses for the war of liberation.
7 - Pacts: Make pacts with all those who are willing to help the struggle of the organization and provide direct support.
8 - Force: Consolidate and increase the fighting force in the homeland and in the Diaspora, in the underground and in the barracks, to become the Hebrew army of liberation with its flag, arms, and commanders.
9 - War: Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.
10 - Conquest: The conquest of the homeland from foreign rule and its eternal possession.

These are the tasks of the movement during the period of sovereignty and redemption:
11 - Sovereignty: Renewal of Hebrew sovereignty over the redeemed land.
12 - Rule of justice: The establishment of a social order in the spirit of Jewish morality and prophetic justice. Under such an order no one will go hungry or unemployed. All will live in harmony, mutual respect and friendship as an example to the world.
13 - Reviving the wilderness: Build the ruins and revive the wilderness for mass immigration and population increase.
14 - Aliens: Solve the problem of alien population by exchange of population.
15 - Ingathering of the exiles: Total in-gathering of the exiles to their sovereign state.
16 - Power: The Hebrew nation shall become a first-rate military, political, cultural and economical entity in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean Sea.
17 - Revival: The revival of the Hebrew language as a spoken language by the entire nation, the renewal of the historical and spiritual might of Israel. The purification of the national character in the fire of revival.

18 - The temple: The building of the Third Temple as a symbol of the new era of total redemption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

As for Irgun

Irgun emblem. The map shows the land claimed by the organization for the Jewish state, which corresponds to the British Mandate of Palestine: current Israel, West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jordan

The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party. Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

[Howardx]

16. 9 - War:

Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.

check.

[Sezu]

17. Well I'm just glad that the usual suspects here care more about

demonizing Israeli assholes, yes they do have some, than condemning Nazi Muftis and those who continue to idolize him. Your lousy moral equivilance speaks TONS about your characters.

[Ken Burch]

18. It's enough that the article condemned the Grand Mufti as an individual

And you know that nobody here ever let the Mufti as an individual off the hook.

The point is, the article shows that it's wrong to hold the acts of the Grand Mufti against ALL Palestinians. So, do you plan to stop doing so anytime soon?

[Igel]

34. Linguists used to employ introspection to find linguistic "truths."

It was determined that looking at data was better because then you'd not just produce data that suited you.

I've always been a firm believer that the real reason looking at actual data is so much better is that most people suck at their "native language competence." Take the use of a bare plural as an example.

"Muslims supported Hitler." Quick question: Is that saying "There existed Muslims such that they supported Hitler" or is it saying "Muslims overall supported Hitler" or is it saying "Every Muslim supported Hitler"? Quick answer: It's three-way ambiguous, how you read it depends on how you want to read it.

Take the article, for example. The Morrocan king defended his sovereignty, therefore Muslims were anti-fascist. Clearly the only valid inference is that at least some Muslims were anti-fascist. Palestinians, under British rule, were hardly likely to produce much by way of an active army in support of Hitler; they were also likely to be drafted. Had the article been able to say that tens of thousands volunteered to fight fascism, that would have been a meaningful statement; had it been able to say that all the volunteers were Muslim, it would have been more meaningful. However, Albanian Muslims were able to join up without great penalty (and with the promise of great reward)--and were recruited by the Mufti, something overlooked (i.e., he was not the lone wolf at some Hitlerian estate devoid of influence); they turned in Jews in the Balkans and fought on the Eastern Front, for a homeland. We heard that the Serbians still resented Croatian cooperation with the Nazis, somehow the Western press was silent on Kosovar cooperation. (Similarly, Indonesian Muslims were at least partly in Hirohito's hip-pocket). Conclusion: Many Muslims supported Hitler, many opposed him. The Nazis managed to stage a revolt in Iraq, which was put down; they weren't able to in Palestine, but then again there had already been an "uprising" from what, '36-'39 or thereabouts, which was suppressed.

Odds are many more in the Middle East sat at home eating their hummus just wanting all the foreigners to go away. We'd have a clearer picture of Palestinian support for Nazism if Germany had been able to occupy Palestine.

So Muslims supported Hitler, in the sense that there existed X, X = Muslims, such that X had support for Hitler. But also, with the same kind of baby semantics, Muslism supported Britain and fought fascism. Those trying to paint all Palestinians as Muslims for Hitler are deluded and, I think, fewer in number than believed to exist in some circles (at least if asked it in those terms--most live with the three-way ambiguity pointed out above and aren't really conscious of the ambiguity ... again, most people suck at competence in their own native language); those who try to pain all Palestinian Muslims as anti-Nazis are no less deluded.

[Ken Burch]

37. As to the conscript question:

Would you also argue that those Americans who were drafted into service in World War II instead of volunteering for induction were NOT antifascist?

If Palestinians had been basically pro-Hitler(which is what those criticizing this article still don't want to admit is an incorrect assumption)they would have evaded conscription and joined the Grand Mufti's attempted "Arab Legion"-you know, the one that basically didn't have any Palestinian or other Arab legionnaires in it? As you yourself admitted, the Mufti's recruits were basically Albanians-NOT PALESTINIANS. Therefore, Palestinians bear no responsibility for the Grand Mufti's legions and their reprehensible acts. And, for the record, I'd have no problem with the IDF occupying Albania in response to the Legion's actions. Hell, I'd probably join them in it.

Oh, and the "sat at home eating their hummus" thing is what we call racist.

You do realize, also, that Muhammad V could have protected Moroccan sovereignty without protecting Moroccan Jews, do you not?. Does the fact that he was(as would have been the case for any head of state in a wartime situation)obliged to defend Moroccan sovereignty and committed to doing so mean that his defense of Moroccan Jews doesn't count? The Mizrahi of Morocco and those of Moroccan descent clearly don't agree with you on this.
Does it also mean Winston Churchill shouldn't get credit for at least protecting Jewish children because he was also, at the time, actively defending British sovereignty? Or that it doesn't count that U.S. troops liberated the camps and saved last survivors of Hitler's atrocities because Roosevelt and Eisenhower were also somewhat concerned with defending American sovereingty?


The importance of the article is that it shows that Palestinian Arabs, other Arabs, and Muslims in general were much less likely to be pro-Nazi than anti-Nazi. It discredits the long-standing "Arabs loved Hitler" meme. And it's time for those who spread that meme and used it to justify Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians to apologize. They don't need to slander Arabs and Muslims to work for Israel's survival.

You are working really hard here to avoid admitting that the "Arabs/Muslims were pro-Nazi" claim was basically a lie(except for the Albanians, they were bad guys on this, fair enough.) Why is it so important to you to not let go of that?

[Sezu]

73. The responsibility some of them bare today is that this

vile evil man is STILL one of the "heroes of the resistance," despite his Nazi loving ways. The impact of that may be far too subtle for your masive intellect but some of get it. I can think of no other state extant where Nazi buddies are still publically worshipped as heroes in their public gathering banners.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. And we have a winner in the Palestinians were/are supporters of Nazism stakes!

Kind of amusing to read this stuff while others are trying to argue that it doesn't happen...

[Ken Burch]

86. You haven't taken a tour of the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, then.

n/t.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Yes, everybody should join you in demonising 'Pal' arseholes, right? n/t

[Sezu]

Too little time to do a good job of that. The terrorist lovers

here would disagree no doubt.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Do you think there are many "terrorist lovers" posting on DU? N.T.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Ah, so I'm a terrorist lover coz I do disagree?

Great. Glad we got that cleared up...

btw, on the subject of demonising and making derogatory comments about either Palestinians or Israelis. You don't seem to have any problem with calling Palestinians 'Pals', as you did further up in this thread. While that label is used regularly over at LGF and FR, DU is a left-wing forum, and using derogatory terms to describe a people, like pals, lebs, etc isn't allowed...

[Sezu]

24. delete double post

here would disagree no doubt.

[Shaktimaan]

70. No, it is true. Lehi was banned.

Nothing the above poster said was incorrect. Lehi wasn't ever a popular group. They were hunted, arrested, disbanded and banned altogether.

First of all, Lehi was a radical fringe group that never numbered more than a few hundred members at its height. It was never popular with the vast majority of Israelis. Both the Irgun and Lehi were considered terrorist groups whose actions hurt the odds of the Yishuv achieving its goals of independence and they were actively pursued and fought by the Haganah. Look up "the hunting season" or the "sinking of the altalena" for reference. Over 1000 Irgun and Lehi members were arrested and turned over to the British by the Haganah.

These groups were given amnesty and folded into the IDF as a means to consolidate the Israeli military into a single force answerable to the Israeli government, without sparking a civil war between mainstream and radical militant factions. All of the forces were dissolved, including the Palmach. The leaders of all the groups were granted amnesty, it had nothing to do with anyone approving of their actions or ideologies. It was strictly a practical matter.

But Lehi and Irgun still operated in Jerusalem, which wasn't part of the original plan to integrate them into the IDF as it was under siege at the time. After Lehi assasinated Count Folke Bernadotte, (as you mentioned) THEN Lehi was banned and completely integrated into the IDF (along with Jerusalem Irgun.)

[azurnoir]

87. Former members of Lehi are honored with a special ribbon

as are members of Etzel (Irgun)

http://www.medals.org.uk/israel/israel015.htm

http://www.medals.org.uk/israel/israel-ribbons.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military_decorations

[Shaktimaan]

88. Yes. So what?

There are ribbons to denote every group that fought for Israeli independence. Lehi was a very small, radical faction but it did exist. And its members did fight, just as much as members of the Palmach did. The existence of this ribbon hardly refutes anything I wrote earlier about Lehi. What's your point?

[azurnoir]

89. The point is that Lehi is still honored today n/t

[Ken Burch]

11. Israel allowed Itzak Shamir to be prime minister.

n/t.

[Shaktimaan]

33. I am unfamiliar with...

...the premise of the article, that Palestinians have been universally reviled for their perceived widespread support of Nazis during WWII. I always thought that the historical record was pretty clear about this. Yes, the Mufti was a close ally of Hitler, but many Palestinians fought for the British, while many stayed neutral, however only a small number actually fought for the Axis.

The author is demanding an apology for six decades of lies but I have never come across these lies in my own readings. Have other people?

[Violet_Crumble]

36. That particular mindset has appeared in this forum before....

And I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find out there on some pro-Israel sites...

on edit: I've reread the article and can't see where he demands an apology. Are you sure it's in the article. I did see him stating several times that ugly mindsets like the ones that try to make out Muslims were fascists and supporters of Hitler need to be challenged. I can't see why you'd have any issue with that, as I totally agree that ugly stereotypes against ANY group need to be challenged...

[Ken Burch]

38. Camera/Fl;ame also included it in their half-page hate rant magazine ads on many occasions.

n/t.

[Shaktimaan]

44. Oh, I realize that SOME people believe this kind of stuff.

But the article makes it seem as though it was correcting a firmly held historical belief. I have no doubt that many people unconcerned with the exact reality of the situation may have their own ideas on the subject. I just wasn't aware that this was the kind of historical inaccuracy that was so widespread as to need to be corrected. To my knowledge there were not that many Muslims who fought for the Axis powers, and the ones who did are pretty well documented, like Al-Husseini or the Bosnian Muslims. I don't remember ever hearing that Arabs and Muslims were primarily allied with Germany. It seems like a pretty obvious falsehood.

I've reread the article and can't see where he demands an apology.

He doesn't. My bad. That was something that someone else posted in this thread. I have no issue with challenging the notion that Muslims were fascists or supporters of Hitler. I just wasn't aware that it was a notion that needed challenging in the first place.

Look, there's no doubt that Al-Husseini was allied with Hitler. But it seems pretty obvious that his support of Germany had much more to do with political necessity than any kind of deep seated commitment to fascism. Since the early Palestinian movement received some amount of aid from Germany and then later Al-Husseini remained an influential figure, with connections to Arafat and pro-Palestinian organizations, I understand why some people might be tempted to draw a link between Nazi ideology and the modern pro-Palestinian movement for propaganda purposes. But the reality of the situation is pretty clear. Even if there had been substantial Palestinian participation in the German war effort it does not imply any kind of ideological common ground. The Palestinians didn't want the British or the Zionists in Palestine. Frankly, I'm surprised as many ended up fighting for the British as did.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. It's a pretty commonly held view in the US...

Sorry, Shakti, but while I know from previous threads that you don't believe that kind of stuff, I do think you are tending to put most people in the same category as yrself when it comes to it, and that's not the case at all. All you have to do is read the OP to see that this stuff is a problem. Obsession was a widely distributed DVD, and the OP speaks of the way they try to draw a link between Muslims and Nazis by including clips of both. That's definately not the first time I've seen that sort of thing where images of Muslims are interspersed with images of Nazis. Someone in this thread who's attempting to make out this stuff doesn't happen once posted a YouTube vid that did exactly that, as well as appearing in a thread where I was saying how wrong it was to try to compare Palestinians to Nazis and proceeded to post a whole bunch of links to what they said was Palestinian antisemitism, followed by a link to info on the Grand Mufti and finished up by claiming that the Grand Mufti influenced today's Palestinians...

I have no issue with challenging the notion that Muslims were fascists or supporters of Hitler. I just wasn't aware that it was a notion that needed challenging in the first place.


Of course it needs challenging. I don't understand why you'd think it doesn't. Is it because you think that only SOME people believe this stuff? Well, only SOME people believe that Jews control the media, so is that a notion that shouldn't be challenged either? Of course not...

I understand why some people might be tempted to draw a link between Nazi ideology and the modern pro-Palestinian movement for propaganda purposes.

I understand why too. After all, a lot in this conflict is pretty much involved in dividing things up into making either Palestinians or Israelis *good* and *bad*. The aversion most people feel towards the Nazis and their ideology is a handy tool, and what's done is the Palestinians are linked to the Nazis and there's an expectation that people will be repelled. I know this has been pulled on me online when I got told that the Palestinians would get more sympathy if they hadn't thrown their lot in with the Nazis, and being asked how I could support a group of people who helped the Nazis.

[oberliner]

39. I've seen it about as often as the "Zionists were pro-Nazi" theory

Which also has come up on this board, indeed on this very thread!

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No-one in this thread has said that the Zionists were pro-Nazi...

I went back and reread the thread to make sure I didn't miss it the first time. Could you point out where you think you saw it?

[oberliner]

51. Yes, one poster did - it is in post #5

They were citing Wikipedia which claimed that the Zionist faction called Lehi proposed working with the Nazis.

A follow-up post noted that Israel elected a PM who was associated with this group.

Edit to add: Please note the "as usual the Israelis are projecting" comment at the bottom of that poster's comment.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. No they didn't. They said it was an antidote for those who argue Muslims supported fascism...

And it is. People can't have it both ways and insist that it's okay to take history out of context to make one group look bad, and not expect their logic not to be thrown back at them. The poster did not claim that the Zionists were pro-Nazi. Of course Lehi did propose working with the Nazis and one of their former members went on to become an Israeli PM, but that translates into 'the Zionists were pro-Nazi' no more than the Grand Mufti's words and actions translating into 'Muslims were pro-Nazi'...

[oberliner]

56. What about the inclusion of the "Israelis are projecting" comment?

What are "the Israelis" projecting exactly? I don't know. Maybe I am reading too much into it. If so, I withdraw my claim.

All I would point out is that I've seen folks make both associations in equal (and equally small) numbers. Not necessarily on this site, but across the internet generally.

I have not seen or very much that would accuse Palestinians generally of sympathy with Nazi Germany although I don't doubt that it is out there.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. Well, it didn't mean the Zionists were pro-Hitler...

You could always ask Howardx what he meant, I guess...

One thing I want to mention is that the term 'Islamofascist' is very common around the internet and seems to be favoured by predominantly US folk. I always wondered about the fondness for using the term fascist tied in with a religion, and now I'm figuring it's to tie Muslims in with fascism and with ideologies such as Nazism....

When we see folk trying to tie the Zionists or Jews in with Nazism, we challenge them. And we should also challenge people when they try to tie Muslims or Palestinians in with Nazism as well...

[oberliner]

67. Have you encountered the term "Zionazi" on the internet at all?

I'd love it if that term and the term you mentioned could be eradicated from the landscape.

Fortunately neither term is used on this site.

[Ken Burch]

69. I have seen that term and find it loathesome.

There have to be other ways to condemn the unmistakable authoritarian tendencies in Israeli politics and governance without Godwinning.

It's a sloppy use of language and harms the cause it's intended to support.

[Ken Burch]

68. We can "thank"(if that's the word) Christopher HItchens for coining the term "islamofascist"

He started using it in 2002 or so when he was beating the drums for a war in Iraq and making the delusional argument that such a war could lead to progressive change in that country, something the members of the now-banned Iraqi trade union movement and the millions of Iraqi women who were forced into burqas in "Free Iraq" would be amused to hear, if they weren't terrified to go out in public to hear it.

[Shaktimaan]

71. I never saw that as its meaning.

At least, not in the sense that it implicates all Muslims under the umbrella of fascism. Rather I took it to refer specifically to a violent and intolerant brand of hardline Islamic fundamentalism. Think the Taliban.

[Howardx]

77. dont throw stones

from your glass house is what i meant. lehi was willing to work with the nazis and in fact met with them to discuss it, take from that what you will.

[Ken Burch]

81. Small suggestion: if you're gonna talk about the I/P discussion

you'd probably want to use phrases other than "don't throw stones".

:eyes:

just sayin'

[Howardx]

82. no im cool with it

the way it is.

[Ken Burch]

46. What was said was that Lehi(Shamir's fascist mob) was(or at least close to it)

Not "Zionists" as a group. Nobody at DU said that or ever would say that.

Does that clarify that point?

[oberliner]

52. They were a Zionist organization and it was noted that a Lehi ribbon is still awarded in Israel

Also, as you point out, an Israeli PM was cited who was associated with that group.

The poster also mentioned citing it as an "antidote" to those who speak of the Grand Mufti supporting Nazi Germany.

In any case, my point is that I have seen associations made between some groups of Zionists and some groups of Palestinians with the Nazis in about equal numbers.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. About yr point. Can you point me to the widely distributed anti-Jewish DVD containing those themes?

Y'know seeing as how yr saying that everything's so equal, I'd like to be pointed to the anti-Jewish version of 'Obsession'...

[oberliner]

57. That I can do!

Here is a 3 DVD set:

In Part 1:

You'll see documentation that Soviet monsters Lenin and Trotsky were Jewish Masons and were led by Zionist overlords.

Part 2:

The Rothschilds—richest dynasty in the world. The leaders of Britain and Israel worship these ruthless barons of the Illuminati bloodlines. They control the world’s banking and financial establishments.

Part 3: Well, you get the idea.


I don't wish to link to where this collection can be purchased, but if you type "Jewish World Control" into Google (US) it should be one of the first links you come to.


Edit to add: The reference to Lenin and Trotsky as "monsters" comes from the web page I was citing. Did not mean to insult any Lenin and Trotsky fans here!

[Violet_Crumble]

59. So it was widely distributed in mainstream newspapers like Obsession was?

Somehow I don't think it was...

[Ken Burch]

60. Was that DVD set being distributed in major U.S. newspapers(including the New York TImes)

And being mailed to millions of U.S. voters during last fall's election?

Yes, the material you mentioned exists, but it wasn't sent to households all over the country.

What you speak of is a horrible piece of hate propaganda, but it wasn't going to much of anyone other than people who were already hard-core antisemites and fascists, and it wasn't being sent to anyone who didn't order it and pay for it out of pocket.

So the two situations are not equivalent.

[oberliner]

63. How about The Passion of the Christ or other similar films?

Many have argued that there are serious anti-semitic overtones in that movie and there is (in my opinion) some even more blatant anti-semitism in some other video depcitions of this particular story that are distributed by various Christian groups.

The imprinting of the association of Jews as "Christ-killers" is something that has gone on for quite some time.

Is that not a wide-spread and problematic phenomenon similar to the associations being made with this DVD regarding Muslims?

[Ken Burch]

65. I agree with you about "The Passion", and about Christian antisemitism in general.

(And it appears that Mel Gibson, as he goes through his divorce proceedings, is about to discover that the wages of sin are $500 million.)

[Ken Burch]

72. One difference in the situation with "The Passion" and "Obsession"

People had to CHOOSE to get a copy of "The Passion" or to go to the theatre and watch the damned thing(and I'd suspect G-d will damn the Melster for it...after all, any dad would throw down on a guy who beat up his kid!)

[oberliner]

76. Some church groups were offered the chance to view free screenings of that film

I think that a pretty sizable number of people were encouraged to see that movie by their churches, and in some case, were able to do so free of charge (early previews, etc).

[Ken Burch]

80. Well, you're not gonna hear me say that "The Passion" was no big deal

I still think, though, that loathesome as it was, the effort to distribute "Obsession" not only to committed Islamophobes but also to people with no particularly strong feelings about Muslims probably did have a much greater effect.

I do still hope Mel gets soaked bigtime in the divorce, and that Recovering Mrs. Mel gives a big chunk of the settlement money to the Tikkun Foundation or Meretz U.S.A. or something.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. I never did see "The Passion" but I liked the South Park episode about it n/t

[Ken Burch]

58. There have been far more insinuations of Palestinian support of Hitler

And the latter implication has been far more important in the I/P discussion, in that it was used to help establish the notion that Palestinians were the successors in infamy to the Romans, the Inquisition, the Tsar and Schickelgruber.

Can everyone agree that, if Lehi doesn't mean that Israelis should be tied to Naziism, that the Grand Mufti's individual evil should not be considered proof that Palestinians as a group were or are evil?

[Violet_Crumble]

62. That's something I definately agree with...n/t

[oberliner]

64. I do not agree - at least not on the left

I've almost never seen this association between Palestinians and Nazis made by those on the left while I have occasionally seen references to various early Zionists and their complicit or ambivalent relationship with Nazi Germany.

I do agree with your second paragraph.

[Ken Burch]

66. Well, it wasn't "the left" making the "Palestinian=Nazi" association. It was the Likudnik right

As represented by Commentary and those crazies at CAMERA/FLAME.

[shira]

74. appears you are arguing a straw-man Ken....show where anyone here blames Palestinians for the Mufti

or show where CAMERA/FLAME does, please.

From whom precisely are you demanding an apology?

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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