Poll: 40% of Israeli Arabs believe Holocaust never happened

[IndianaGreen]

Reaping what it has been sown.

Last update - 21:01 17/05/2009

Poll: 40% of Israeli Arabs believe Holocaust never happened

By Fadi Eyadat, Haaretz Correspondent

Some 40.5 percent of Israeli Arabs believe the Holocaust never occurred, according to the results of a University of Haifa poll released Sunday.

The survey shows that Holocaust denial among Israeli Arabs has become more prevalent in recent years. In 2006, 28 percent of Israeli Arabs polled denied that the Holocaust occurred.

The annual poll of Jewish-Arab relations, which was conducted by Professor Sami Samuha, also found that only 41 percent of Israel's Arab minority recognize the country's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, as opposed to 65.6 percent in 2003.

Moreover, only 53.7 percent of the Israeli Arab public believe Israel has a right to exist just as an independent country, according to the poll, down from 81.1 percent in 2003.

"This radicalization in the positions of Arabs was caused by a series of factors such as the Second Lebanon War, the stalemate in the negotiations with the Palestinians, the failure to implement the conclusions of the Or committee, closing the case against the Border Police troops who shot dead the Israeli Arab protesters in October 2000, and more," Samuha said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086115.html

[Smith_3]

1. Whether or not the holocaust happened is really not their problem.

"Denial" is the wrong word here as it implies "denying that you did something". Germans maybe can "deny" the holocaust. Arabs simply have a wrong idea on a historic issue. They are misinformed on this issue, but that is simply irrelevant in the context of their claims regarding their homeland. They had nothing to do with the holocaust nor do they have a history of anti-semitism (a concept that was developed and carried out solely by white christians), despite the ongoing efforts of the Israeli government to associate any of their current enemys with Hitler.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Hard to feel empathy for someone that is oppressing you without mercy

I think that is what is at the heart of this poll.

[DonCoquixote]

4. Emotion does not preclude Facts

The idea that a reality can be washed away because it is inconvenient is a major part of what caused this mess to begin with.

[LeftishBrit]

5. Holocaust denial isn't just an issue for those in countries involved in the Holocaust

Though it is usually these countries where Holocaust denial is illegal.

However, Britain, America, Australia and many other countries were not involved in the Holocaust. The problem with Holocaust denial is not just that it absolves the perpetrators, but that it is almost always used as part of antisemitic conspiracy theories: 'the Jews invented or exaggerated this to promote their own advantage'.

I have tried without much success to check on how frequent holocaust denial is in Britain and America - it would be no use checking in countries where it's illegal. My guess is that actual denial that the Holocaust happened is pretty rare, but that minimization is probably commoner.

The situation in Israel seems to reflect an increased tension and hostility between Arabs and Jews. Perhaps many Israeli Arabs are retaliating against the racism of Lieberman et al; and perhaps (probably) they are influenced by antisemitic propaganda elsewhere in the Middle East - including Hamas, but many others too. In any case, it's a depressing situation.

ETA: Although the term 'antisemitism' was devised by white Christians, and the most extreme forms took place in Europe, there is and has been anti-Jewish prejudice virtually everywhere.

[Ken Burch]

28. The U.S, and the other English-speaking countries didn't commit the Holocaust, BUT...

They do bear a huge responsibility for making the death toll a lot higher than it ever needed to be. All those countries could see that the European Jewish community was in mortal danger, from the late 1930's on, YET THEY BARRED THE DOORS to most Jewish refugees and asylum-seekers.

If those people had been allowed refuge in the U.S., Hitler could have done nothing to them and no one in those countries would have lost anything.

But they wouldn't, because that would have meant admitting that "The Other" deserved to live.

All English-speaking nations bear an eternal blot on their moral reputations for turning the Jewish and other refugees from Hitler away, even when they KNEW what the Reich was going to do.

[Shaktimaan]

15. I'm sorry, but this is not quite true.

They had nothing to do with the holocaust nor do they have a history of anti-semitism (a concept that was developed and carried out solely by white christians), despite the ongoing efforts of the Israeli government to associate any of their current enemys with Hitler.

The Palestinians did not play a role in the Holocaust, this is accurate, however there is a history of anti-semitism in all of the Arab states, including the Palestinians, and an association did exist between Palestinian leadership and Hitler. While many Palestinian Arabs fought with the Allies against the Axis powers, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the most influential Palestinian leaders at the time, was a close associate and ally of Adolf Hitler. While this was likely due primarily to political considerations, the man was always an avowed anti-semite and was responsible for instigating much of the violence against Jews that sparked the very beginning of the conflict. It is worth noting that the victims of these early attacks were not recent immigrants to Palestine but indigenous civilians whose families had been there for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Today anti-semitism is rampant throughout the Arab world and while many of the ideas being espoused are recycled concepts originating from Christian nations they have taken root and found new life among non-Christians. While anti-semitism has not traditionally been as enthusiastically endorsed in the Arab world as it was in Europe it is untrue to think that it did not exist or that Jews were not systematically persecuted and discriminated against. As dhimmis, Jews were frequently subject to an array of discriminatory laws and practices throughout history in the Arab kingdoms. After the establishment of Israel, Jews in Arab lands were violently oppressed during pogroms, expelled and even murdered as retribution for the Jewish state's continued existence. Very few Jews remain in any of these countries today for this reason.

Arabs simply have a wrong idea on a historic issue. They are misinformed on this issue, but that is simply irrelevant in the context of their claims regarding their homeland.

You are missing the point. No one is suggesting that the two are related. The fact that so many Palestinians question the reality of the Holocaust is indicative of an unwillingness to accept historical facts that support the need for a Jewish state. For Palestinians, Holocaust denial is one facet of a larger philosophy that seeks to deny the legitimacy of Israel. Holocaust denial in today's day and age is also not merely a mistake about a single historical event. It represents the acceptance of a host of other anti-semitic ideas which threatens to undermine the spirit of co-operation which would be necessary for the successful implementation of any peace process.

It is not like the Palestinians have never heard of the Holocaust. They know about it but believe that it is an exaggeration or falsehood perpetuated by Jews in order to rob them of their homeland. One cannot deny the Holocaust without also buying into the idea that a Jewish conspiracy intent on defrauding the world exists. It is no coincidence that propaganda like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are so popular in the Arab world.

When a large percentage of Palestinians accept such outrageous ideas as truth it represents a great failure. A failure to understand their enemy as a people or see the situation from their perspective (and thus a failure to understand their own situation within a realistic historical perspective.) If they misunderstand the Israeli's reality then they have no hope of understanding their motivations or fears. And an inability to grasp your enemy's motives or needs leads to a weak foundation for peace. Sadat understood the Israeli's motives and needs very well. Which is what led him to take the appropriate actions necessary for gaining their trust, such as his historic visit to Jerusalem for negotiations.

Whether or not the Holocaust happened is not the Palestinians' problem, true. But knowing whether or not it happened certainly IS. Refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Israelis' own rights and history does nothing to bolster their own claims, however legitimate they might be.

[Smith_3]

16. Hey. Thanks for the reply.

:)

[Sezu]

3. But even PRIOR to there being an Israel...

"After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ... Before long political parties of the Nazi and Facsist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders."

Lewis, Bernard. Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice. W.W. Norton & Company, 1999. ISBN 0393308397, p. 148

So it appears the two of 2 are dead wrong. Go figure. More Kool aid it appears.

[shaayecanaan]

7. Bernard Lewis believes that the Armenian Genocide never happened...

and has been convicted in a French court on the charge of genocide denial. Its a bit rich to be quoting him given the context.

[Sezu]

8. Oh my God. What the two have to do with his FACTS on this

which are easily confirmed via many other sources is beyond me. People who are wrong sometimes are also capable of being right most of the time too or didn't anyone teach you these simple truths? Abbas was once a terrorist and wrote a thesis denying the Holocaust and now he's a "partner for peace," or IS he according to your views?

Try to use some sense in these matters when it comes to facts vs opinions.

[shaayecanaan]

9. Would you object if I had quoted David Irving?

He did produce some reputable works of history earlier in his career.

[Sezu]

10. Are you comparing Lewis to Irving? Guess you don't know all that much

about Lewis' "sin."

[shaayecanaan]

12. Why the "quotes"?

Do you consider that denying the Armenian genocide is less egregious than denying the holocaust?

[Sezu]

21. Research the fucking incident and get back to me. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

25. Should I research the Armenian Genocide or Bernard Lewis?

You have to be more specific with these things. And am I supposed to realise that the Armenian Genocide never happened after I research it?

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I know they're both genocide deniers n/t

[oberliner]

11. Bernard Lewis was not convicted in a French court on the charge of genocide denial

He was found innocent in the criminal case against him which was eventually dismissed.

He was, however, fined one franc in a civil judgment.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Interesting how you don't mention why the case was dismissed...

You make it sound as though he was found innocent of denying the Armenian genocide, when that wasn't the case at all. The case was dismissed because the law the case was brought under was one where it's illegal to call into question crimes against humanity as defined by the Nuremburg Laws, and the dismissal came about because that law was strictly applied as only concerning the crimes of the Nazi government during WWII. Also, in dismissing the case, the court recognised the validity of the Armenian genocide...

Also, I suspect you've got it wrong about how much Lewis was paid. I've read the judgement, and while that was the amount of damages, didn't he have to pay a much larger amount in court costs and the costs of printing an excerpt of the judgement in Le Monde?

[oberliner]

19. Thank you for sharing the additional information

I did not mean to make it sound like anything other than that he was not convicted of any crime as was implied by the poster to whom I was responding. The criminal case against him was dismissed for the reasons you've indicated.

I read on Wikipedia that the civil judgment against him was one franc.

Here's what is written there:

Bernard Lewis was fined one franc by a French court in a civil proceeding for not recognizing the Armenian Genocide in a November 1993 Le Monde article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

If this information is false, I would encourage you to correct their records.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Proof that people shouldn't believe everything they read on Wikipedia...

The Court;
Declares the action to be admissible;
Adjudges Bernard Lewis liable to pay to each plaintiff, the FORUM OF ARMENIAN ASSOCIATIONS IN
FRANCE, and to the INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE AGAINST RACISM AND ANTISEMITISM the sum of one
franc in damages;
Orders the publication of excerpts of this judgment in the next issue of the newspaper Le Monde to appear
after the date on which this judgment shall be made final, the cost of this insertion, to be borne by the
defendant, not to exceed twenty thousand (20,000) francs;
States that no grounds exist for provisional execution; Adjudges Bernard Lewis to pay, pursuant to Article
700 of the New Code of Civil Procedure, the sum of ten thousand (10,000) francs to the Forum of Armenian
Associations in France, and the sum of four thousand (4,000) francs to the International League Against
Racism and anti-Semitism;
Sentences the defendant to costs.
Judgment rendered in Paris on June 21, 1995

http://www.wihl.nl/finals/France/FR.C-DO.Decision%20no.%2012%20Paris%20Court%20of%20First%20Instance%20(Armenian%20genocide).pdf

on edit: that's a weird url that yr going to have to copy and paste into yr address bar to get working...

[oberliner]

22. Amen to that - thanks again!

How did you track down the actual primary source document?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I found it using Google n/t

[varelse]

6. Holocaust denial on the rise, acceptance of an established state (and UN member) on the decline.

Not an encouraging trend :(

[Sezu]

31. AND as evidenced in some of these posts, a penchant

for declaring some kind of moral equivilence to the two Holocausts. Yes there was an Armenian genocide. It was barbaric but the mechanisms involved in the Jewish Holocaust involved MOST of EUROPE unlike the Armenian event. Trying to create a meme that these two belong together somehow is as contrived as Israeli/Nazi comparisons and is, as Lewis claimed, a way of trivializing the Jewish Holocaust for some agenda.

[proteus_lives]

13. Not surprising.

Propaganda mills across the world pump "the Holocaust never happened." shit everyday. You'd probably find a lot in Europe/USA too.

[azurnoir]

14. How many Israeli's do not "believe" the Nakba happened

or view it as something entirely different, this could be a reaction to that. None the less

MK David Rotem (Yisrael Beiteinu) responded to a poll conducted by Haifa University, which found that Israeli Arabs have recently become more radical in their views.

"The poll attests to a profound hatred by a large part of Israel's Arabs against Jews, which is expressed through Holocaust denial and the refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state," he said, and called for an investigation of Arab education in Israel. (Sharon Roffe-Ofir)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3717333,00.html

I found the claim the only 53.7% of Israeli-Arabs believe in Israels right to exist quite "interesting" also, as I remember a much touted poll here recently that claimed 77% of Israeli Arabs wanted to be in Israel.

[IndianaGreen]

24. and how many deny Palestine the right to exist?

Amazing part of this planet, isn't it?

[Dick Dastardly]

26. No one has a right exist unless the exalted one Dick Dastardly Almighty wills they do.

Those who anger Dick Almighty will be smited out of existence by the mighty smiter or I may make little anal-dwelling butt monkeys come out of their ass.


The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.



I am Dick Almighty. My will be done.

[IndianaGreen]

27. I am having flashbacks to Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction

Vincent Vega and Jules Winnfield.

[azurnoir]

29. I'm wondering

what Almighty Dick was smoking

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Hillary Clinton should look into their educational system. nt