The West Bank Archipelago

[bemildred]

This week, leading Israeli, Palestinian and American officials have agreed that the creation of a Palestinian state on territory in the West Bank and Gaza is essential to peace in the Middle East. But spend any time looking at a map of the West Bank as it is today, or with any of the many different proposals for how that map might be redrawn to accommodate the aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians, and it becomes clear why any sensible mapmaker might choose to steer well clear of the challenge of drawing up that state.

But first, let’s see where the agreement lies. On Tuesday in Washington, Vice President Joe Biden reiterated that the Obama administration’s vision for peace in the Middle East includes the creation of a Palestinian state. In a speech to members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Mr. Biden said that Palestinians leaders “must combat terror and incitement against Israel” and Israeli leaders need to accept that “Israel has to work toward a two-state solution.” After the aside, “You’re not going to like my saying this,” Mr. Biden emphasized that, to make space for a Palestinian state, Israel has to “not build more settlements,” in the areas of the West Bank it currently controls.

While Israel’s new prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has not explicitly endorsed the creation of a Palestinian state, a report in the Jerusalem Post pointed out that Mr. Biden’s audience agrees with him, “Participants at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee Policy Conference will this week be urging their elected representatives to press President Barack Obama for precisely that.”

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/07/the-west-bank-archipelago

[azurnoir]

1. could call it Tahitistan, it could be the paradise of the ME

well if not for the military checkpoints between Islands
that is not an acceptable or viable state and the Palestinian leadership along with Obama should reject that map out of hand

[Scurrilous]

2. Israeli researcher suggests creating 'Palestinian emirates

<snip>

"An Israeli researcher specializing in Arab-Israeli affairs at Bar-Ilan University, Dr Motti Kedar, asserted on Monday that he would submit to the Israeli Knesset this week a proposal suggesting the establishment of a “Palestinian emirate state.”

Kedar told local Palestinian radio station “Ar-Raya FM,” which is based in Ramallah, that several Knesset members and party leaders welcomed his idea that he has worked on for some ten years studying the nature of Palestinian-Israeli relations.

"Today I promise both peoples that their complicated question will be solved through this proposal. My proposal suggests the appointment of a king or emir or caliph in each Palestinian city or village, which will have its own systems and its own army. These emirates could become richer than the Gulf states if the Palestinians wake up and invest in the gas reserve near the Gaza beaches."

However, Kedar rejected a withdrawal from Israeli settlements in the West Bank. He said Israel would not allow these hilltops to become bases for Hizbullah.

As for Jerusalem, he said it would never be negotiable, and that if any Israeli prime minister were to seriously negotiate over Jerusalem, he would be assassinated immediately because Jerusalem is a red line "burning anyone who comes close to it."

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&Do=&ID=37733

[IndianaGreen]

3. Another fanatic!

The gods save us from the likes of Motti Kedar.

[bemildred]

4. Well, amazingly stupid, anyway.

One wonders if anybody ever talked to him about the need not to look like Apartheid.

[excess_3]

5. any links to maps of the proposed bantustans?

thanks for any comments

[Scurrilous]

6. Palestine’s Island Paradise, Now With a Word from its Creator

<snip>

"The Bible contains at least two stories equating the aquatic with the amoral. As Red Sea pedestrians, Moses and the Israelites didn’t even get their sandals moist, while the Lord did some expert smiting on the pursuing Egyptians, by way of the gurgling waters closing in on them. And a few thousand years earlier, Noah kept his binary boatload afloat while all the rest of humanity (and the now extinct species of the animal kingdom) met their watery grave.

Even though this map of L’archipel de Palestine orientale (‘The Archipelago of Eastern Palestine’) is set in the same area and uses a similar theme, the cartographer behind it refutes any allegation that it is meant to reflect the same Biblical dry = good, wet = bad analogy. "The map is not about ‘drowning’ or ‘flooding’ the Israeli population, nor dividing territories along ethnic lines, even less a suggestion of how to resolve the conflict," gasps Julien Bousac, the Frenchman who created this map.

A small excerpt of the map (focusing on the Greater Jerusalem area) was published a bit earlier on this blog, but the map in its entirety (sent in by Mr Bousac but also earlier by Baptiste Hautdidier) merits a separate entry, not only because "without a legend, it (…) gives ground to various misinterpretations, due to the high sensitivity of the subject," as Mr Boussac relates – but also because it just looks so nice. And strange, of course.

"Maybe posting the full map would help to take it for what it is, i.e. an illustration of the West Bank’s ongoing fragmentation based on the (originally temporary) A/B/C zoning which came out of the Oslo process, still valid until now. To make things clear, areas ‘under water’ strictly reflect C zones, plus the East Jerusalem area, i.e. areas that have officially remained under full Israeli control and occupation following the Agreements. These include all Israeli settlements and outposts as well as Palestinian populated areas."

more

[Violet_Crumble]

7. This was interesting...

In an interview with The New York Times published on Tuesday, the leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshal, made it clear that his definition of “viable” and Aipac’s are not quite the same. Mr. Meshal said that a Palestinian state should be created on the territory in the West Bank and Gaza that Israel conquered in 1967, which would mean removing hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers from the West Bank.

At the risk of being forever scarred by being branded a Hamas supporter by a roving DU Hamas Spotting Patrol, Mr Meshal's comments there don't seem to be in line with what some of the resident Hamas experts in this forum tell me Hamas say about a two-state solution....


Underlining how far that is from Israel’s position, the news agency J.T.A. reported the same day that Israel’s president, Shimon Peres, told Mr. Biden that building on Israeli settlements in the West Bank had to be allowed to continue, since “Israel cannot instruct settlers in existing settlements not to have children or get married.”

Okay, maybe it's just me, but why are settlers in the West Bank the only folk who need to build a new house every time they pop out a baby? Also, it's very hypocritical to have such a broad idea of what *natural growth* is when it comes to Israeli settlers in the West Bank, and have a policy in East Jerusalem for the Arab residents where *natural growth* isn't taken into account at all, not even to put an extension on an existing home...

[bemildred]

8. That should be "DU Hamas Supporter Spotting Patrol (DHSSP)".

I do find the fixation on what this or that Hamas "spokesman" has to say somewhat illogical since nobody is willing to "talk" (i.e. "listen") to them in the first place. Oooops, now I've done it, I'm a "Hamas supporter" too.

I would like to ask Mr Peres what he thinks about the "natural growth" of the Arab population and about their needs to build lots more towns and houses where ever they like.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Damn, I missed an S....

Yeah, that fixation thing is pretty illogical. I also find the unwillingness to see groups like Hamas as having more pragmatic elements among them which makes it so sometimes the message depends on who's delivering it to be kind of one-dimensional....

[shira]

9. Hamas will grant Israel a 10 year hudna at best after a Pal'n state based on '67 borders ...

...is established (meaning Israel goes back to the insecure and indefensible Auschwitz borders of 1949) and then Hamas attacks again in 10 years or sooner (which is more likely since Hamas is way too radical and violent to stop attacking for 10 years).

uh yeah.....that's kinda extreme.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Great. That's a whole lot better than Nutty is wanting...

uh yeah....that makes him and his gang of hardline RWers and fascists even more extreme...

[shira]

12. Bibi will agree to 2-states

but he differs from past Israeli administrations who would agree to give the PA land and THEN hope for peace and state-building later. Bibi just thinks the process should happen in reverse order.

It appears some 'moderates' here think it's too much to expect the PA to work towards peace, tolerance, and state-building first BEFORE declaring a Pal'n homeland.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. What are you? His mind-reader? Right now he opposes a two-state solution...

That's what matters. Not predictions of the future by his fans. A ten year hudna offered by Hamas in return for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders is far more reasonable than Nutty's opposition to a two-state solution and a refusal to stop settlement expansion. And as you wanted to talk in terms of extreme, that makes Nutty's govt's stance more extreme than that of Hamas....

[shira]

14. pay better attention

Mubarak: Netanyahu will agree to two-states
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3729414,00.html

===========

It's not just Mubarak either.

===========

You really need to pay better attention to Netanyahu. He has conceded many times that Israel cannot keep ruling over Palestinians and he has called for Pal'n state-building from the bottom level up (not the top-down model). That's a move towards 2 states even if he's reluctant to articulate "2 states".

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Nutty has not stated his support for a two-state solution....

So don't trot out what he might say as being proof that he supports it. And while autonomy in the West Bank might impress the likes of you no end, it doesn't fool all that many others...

[shira]

16. fascinating....so when Bibi concedes Israel cannot keep ruling Palestinians that means...

...what to you? After all, the PA was given more autonomy from 1995-2002 but the occupation (Israel ruling) continued. Bibi concedes that cannot keep going on. So what do you believe he means when he says Israel cannot keep ruling Palestinians?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. I believe he means "please don't put pressure on us, Obama".

Actions speak louder than words; the course Netanyahu is charting with continued settlement expansions and refusal to endorse a two-state solution makes it clear that what he envisages is - at best - a bunch of small, ever-decreasing bantustans with limited autonomy, probably with living conditions deliberately made harsh to encourage emmigration.

[shira]

18. not if he wants to stay in office

most Israelis want rule over Palestinians to end, so Bibi cannot stay in office long if the impression remains that he is against a 2-state solution.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. The last election results suggest otherwise.

I don't know how many Israelis say they don't want to continue ruling of the Palestinians, but they vote for parties whose policies will have that effect.

[shira]

20. latest polling shows at least 58% of Israelis back a 2 state solution

Netanyahu cannot survive if the impression among Israelis is that he is against peace or for endless occupation.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. He hasn't come out in support of a two-state solution...

That's a fact.

Not sure why yr asking me my opinion about anything when I've just come from a thread where you say you don't take me seriously.

[shira]

22. sigh....typical response from you

Bibi says repeatedly that Israel cannot keep ruling Pal'ns but that doesn't mean he's for 2 states, of course. It just means the IDF leaves and _____________ (fill-in-the-blank).

:eyes:

well, happy delusions Violet!

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yeah, I tend to respond the same way to sheer silliness...

Which is the area yr inhabiting. It's a FACT that Nutty's govt is opposed to a two-state solution. That's why they haven't come out and supported a two-state solution.