'Allegations of civilian shootings in Gaza categorically false'

[Fozzledick]

By YAAKOV LAPPIN

Allegations that IDF soldiers deliberately shot and killed Palestinian civilians in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead have been found to be categorically untrue by official army investigations, an IDF source told The Jerusalem Post on Wednesday.

...

During the conference, one soldier claimed a marksman opened fire on a mother and two of her children, in full knowledge that they were civilians, after a squadron commander told them to walk into a no-entry zone.

"All of the soldiers who were involved in the conference were questioned - not as a punishment - but in order to understand whether they had witnessed these things. From all of the testimonies we collected, we can safely conclude that the soldiers who made the claims did not witness the events they describe," the source said.

"All of it was based on rumors. In the incident of the alleged shooting of the mother and her children, what really happened was that a marksman fired a warning shot to let them know that they were entering a no-entry zone. The shot was not even fired in their general direction," the source said.

"The marksman's commander ran up the stairs of a Palestinian home, got up on the roof, and asked the marksman why he shot the civilians. The marksman said he did not fire on the civilians. But the soldiers on the first floor of that house heard the commander's question being shouted. And from that point, the rumor began to spread," the source added.

"We can say with absolute certainty that the marksman did not fire on the woman and her children. Later, the company commander spoke with the marksman and his commander. We know with certainty that this incident never took place," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237727539851&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Of course those who wish to demonize Israel will make ad hominim excuses to disregard this, but I can't help noticing how their accusations always evaporate when the facts finally come out.

[cali]

1. I don't as a matter of course, believe internal U.S. armed forces

investigations, and I don't swallow this. Outside investigations are vital to determine the facts.

[Sezu]

7. What part of the soldiers testimony that they were only

repeating rumours DON'T you understand. Guess they are villians instead of heroes not that the FULL truth is known that they were only reporting hearsay. Or are you so vile as to think that their "bosses," have coerced them to admit that and that if an outside agency investigates they will revert to the "truth?" I'm guessing you are given your need to think you would be "swallowing," something. Try and remember that the soldiers admitted this to a RADIO interviewer almost immediately once someone figured out to check....this is WAY before the "bosses," got to them.

Now the Guardian expose may hold more water but even it needs to be viewed only with interest at this point given the fact that it is all allegations from Israel's enemies at this point with nothing that is really fact and this of course has been played out time and again with the Jenin hoax and al-Durah, etc. The GUARDIAN of course was one of the biggest willing dupes in the Jenin hoax so right there it is supect.

[cali]

8. I think armed forces have a vested interest in

protecting themselves. This is NOT particular to the IDF. Nothing vile about believing that organizations- ALL organizations- have conflicts when it comes to investigating themselves. An outside agency might indeed come to the same conclusions as the IDF. That's not my point. That you don't understand that outside investigations are a better way to go, is your problem, dearie.

[Sezu]

10. WHO is going to do such "outside" investigation?

The UN which is transparently biased against Israel? One of the humnan rights NGO's who fell for the Jenin and OTHER hoaxes IMMEDIATELY and later had to retract? Maybe the UN special envoy who is a 9/11 troofer?

Give me a break DEARIE. Who can be trusted to be impartial given their records so far?

[cali]

11. how about an Israeli organization?

or appoint an independent panel of Israelis.

[Sezu]

12. Actually that's an idea I could get behind and there is

precedent for it to some extent. Okay I'm behind you there but still pissed at the automatic assumptions that Israeli officials are going to automatically lie. Not saying you do that but some here do it all the time.

[The Second Stone]

39. I don't accept the lies from the IDF investigators

exonerating themselves. Bullshit. The fact that the IDF now has as its official policy that all of these claims are lies, in face of all t-shirts bragging to the contrary and the reports from non-Israeli witnesses simply make it look like official denial of the crimes is now official policy.

No more support for Israel.

[LeftishBrit]

13. I agree

It applies to all organizations - military, financial, business, academic, political, etc. If you let an organization police itself, and rely on its own internal investigations, you'll end up with a serious loss of accountability. (E.g. if there'd been more external oversight of the banks, we might not have ended up in this mess.)

It isn't even always deliberate lying: members of a group tend to want to perceive themselves in the best light.

I would be much more convinced by some sort of external investigation (this doesn't even need to mean non-Israeli, but just not by the IDF itself).

[Sezu]

15. It appears that the story has caused one famous American based

cartoonist to do his own independent investigation with this kind of result. Imagine, in America yet.

http://www.gocomics.com/patoliphant/2009/03/25/

[The Second Stone]

40. It is a racist cartoon

but it is only one thousandth as offensive as t-shirts bragging "one shot, two kills". Hundreds of civilians in Gaza were killed, and it is far more unfortunate than the racist tinged outraged at the killings. Very convenient that the people who denounce racist cartoons don't denounce the crimes against humanity that inspire them.

[Sezu]

42. And if Israel HAD been inclined to "kill civilians,"

there would be 30,000 or more dead civilians. You Israel haters can't have it both ways you know, try as you will.

[The Second Stone]

47. So it isn't true because the numbers weren't 10 times what they

were? Sorry, that's bullshit. The Israel haters are the ones like you who turned a country founded for moral reasons into a country that profoundly oppresses a helpless people and carelessly murders them by the thousands.

And over time, far more than 30,000 civilians have been killed by the poor nutrition poor sanitation and poor access to medical care. Realizing that this is true would not get you to change your view, because no amount of oppression by the Israelis would be beyond justification to those who brag that Israel could kill ten times that many. I no longer support Israel. Jews are welcome to live in my neighborhood and even rent a room from me. But Israelis are the most oppressive people in the world, and I do not want a bunch of them coming to the United States to live. Israelis and Jews are not coextensive, Jews are moral and ethical, Israelis oppress their neighbors in the most disgusting manner.

[Sezu]

55. I didn't turn anything into anything you lout. n't

[The Second Stone]

57. So you were always a goostepper?

You advocate policies that are different than the Nazis in only degree. You either started out that way or became that way. This American despises the Israeli propagandists as much as I despise the Nazis. I consider you no better than Goebbels. And before you act all offended, take your fucking rhetorical boot off the Palestinians and get your evil nation's evil government off of Palestinian land. And stop begging my country for money to pay for all of this. Pay for your own damn butchery. Beggar for death. My words hurt you nothing compared to the aid and comfort your words give to the killers of Palestinian civilians.

[ORDagnabbit]

2. uh-huh....would you care for a ton of evidence other wise or will you just dismiss it away?

[EFerrari]

3. The problem with this "report" is that we've seen the footage already.

That doctor whose four daughters and his niece were killed WHILE he was on the phone with an Israeli anchorman on the air & etc.

The IDF is just making themselves look worse by these obviously false statements.

[mike_c]

4. agree with cali-- this is quite likely a whitewash by the IDF....

External investigations are necessary. Few military commands report honest internal investigations. They go to extraordinary lengths to hide the truth when they're culpable for war crimes. Not saying that's the case here, just that internal investigations are generally untrustworthy. This is the same military that still claims not to have nuclear weapons, right?

[Sezu]

6. See what I mean? n/t

[Sezu]

16. What PROOF do you have of that claim...that few report honest

internal investigations? I call bullshit. It's just your biased opinion. As well, I don't believe they have ever made such a claim about nuclear weapons. Perhaps you could link to that claim as well as proofs of the former accusation.

[Jefferson23]

20. "This is the same military that still claims not to have nuclear weapons, right?"

Calls for Olmert to resign after nuclear gaffe

* Luke Harding in Berlin and Duncan Campbell
* guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 12 December 2006 18.39 GMT


The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert. Photograph: EPA
Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, was today trying to fend off accusations of ineptitude and calls for his resignation after he accidentally acknowledged for the first time that Israel had nuclear weapons.

After decades in which Israel has stuck to a doctrine of nuclear ambiguity, Mr Olmert let slip during an interview in Germany that Israel did indeed have weapons of mass destruction. He told Germany's Sat.1 channel last night: "Iran, openly, explicitly and publicly, threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as America, France, Israel and Russia?"

*snip: Speaking in Berlin after a meeting today with Germany's chancellor, Angela Merkel, Mr Olmert attempted to backtrack. He insisted that Israel's doggedly held position of nuclear weapons ambiguity had not changed.

article in full here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/12/germany.israel

[Sezu]

5. Of course that is what some of us have been saying

but it has fallen on many deaf ears who are always certain Israel is GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY of any and everything that comes down the pipe even after all the BS is disproved and media and NGO's have to apologize. The orgiastic furor with which they pursue each and every possible wrongdoing is SO blatant here at DU and elsewhere. Thwe disturbing part is that the vast majority of the perps are NOT mindless drones but seemingly intelligent people who nonetheless seem able to suspend their critical thinking skills if they smell the slightest scent of blood with which to tar and feather Israel.

Case in point, the OBVIOUS lack of FACTUAL information contained in the original accusations which we now see is what proved the allegations false. Not ONE, not a single ONE of the usual suspects around here was able to say "whoa, something may not be right here; maybe we need to slow down."

Instead the accusations were repeated, enhanced and the general consensus was that the "probe," would be a whitewash. you know since Israel can't be trusted. I fully suspect that most of them will continue the whitewash meme or some other derivation so that they can milk the outrage as long and as hard as they can.

Of all the stuff that has blown up in their and the media's faces, you think they would learn not to jump offf the cliff with the lemmings EACH and EVERY time.

[frylock]

9. 'Allegations of civilian shootings in My Lai categorically false'

[Idealism]

18. 'Allegations of civilian casualties in the Battle of Fallujah categorically false, DoD confirms'

[shira]

19. the allegations are of indiscriminate and deliberate killings of civilians

[Idealism]

21. And?

[Maat]

14. To the Israeli government ...

know that you do not have my willing support of your "self defense." Know that I will spend the rest of my life protesting one penny of my hard-earned money going to provide weapons or money to your military. I do not want to pay for that. I do not feel that I should be coerced into paying for unwarranted and disproportional violence. The fact is that the vast majority of those killed by their occupying force were civilians. Many of them were children. I watched video after video of the bombing of homes and of a U.N. warehouse (no justification for that bombing - period).

This the bottom line - no matter how much the apologists try and justify your actions.

[shaayecanaan]

17. Its always the throwaway remarks at the end...

"Look at the allegation that we killed 48 civilians in a UN school in Gaza. In reality, seven people were killed, and four to five of them were terrorists. The UN apologized, but the damage is done," the source said.

that indicate whether someone is credible or not.

[shira]

26. perfect example

"Look at the allegation that we killed 48 civilians in a UN school in Gaza. In reality, seven people were killed, and four to five of them were terrorists. The UN apologized, but the damage is done," the source said.

===============

Do you disagree with this statement? If so, why?

[shaayecanaan]

27. perfect example of what? nt

[shira]

28. perfect example of one of many demonstrably false allegations

proven to be false only after the lie made its way around the world, with most who read or heard of it still believing the original false report (the correction/retraction didn't make as many headlines for some reason).

Do you disagree with the statement in particular?

[shaayecanaan]

29. Just to clarify: do you agree with it?

Do you believe that only 7 people died at the school and that 4 or 5 of them were terrorists?

[shira]

33. i think i read somewhere that 12 were killed, 9 of whom were Hamas

so I'm not sure exactly what the numbers are, but apparently the IDF has video proving their point.

[shaayecanaan]

36. Again, is that what you believe?

That 7 were killed, or 12?

And if you're wrong, does that constitute a "libel" against the Palestinians, or does this kind of histrionic bullshit only work one way?

[shira]

37. whether it's 7 or 12, most killed were combatants

which turns the original story of 44 killed, most being civilians, upside down.

That the story took weeks to be corrected, and the fact that a retraction didn't even show up in most MSM outlets, should be quite bothersome to any objective observer - don't you think? How many of these outrageously false flags, with little to no regret or retractions, does it take to start wondering what the hell is going on?

[bemildred]

22. So what we have is somewhere between 300 and 1000+ "accidents"?

How do you even tell a "militant" from a "civilian" when you are a IDF soldier in Gaza? Do they wear name tags or something to identify themselves so they can be killed in a "moral" way?

[Idealism]

23. Don't 'cha know they all have nametags that say "Hi, my name is Jihadist" on them

[bemildred]

24. Ah, nice of them to identify themselves so the can be killed "cleanly".

The IDF ought to be more grateful for the help.

[Idealism]

25. Well they don't want modern warfare to denigrate into something messy. n/t

[Sezu]

30. What a ridiculous statement. Surely you don't believe that an army

cannot know who is shotting at it; where various targets are and can count. The level of ignorance in such a stance is astounding.

[Idealism]

31. As if you are one to preach about ignorance?

Please, Sezu. Your own ignorance didn't even allow your mind to detect sarcasm in that post, don't you lecture me.

[Sezu]

34. self delete

[Sezu]

35. Sarcasm, how can one tell the difference given most of your

posts pretty much all of which try and demonize some part of Israel. Maybe you should use some smileys like other do when they are being "sarcastic."

[Idealism]

38. To call out an entity for wrong-headed policies is not demonization.

I suppose I am not "demonizing" the US when I say the Afghanistan operation Obama is embarking us on is terribly short-sighted and flawed, is it? Or does "demonization" only occur when its Israel we are criticizing?

[Sezu]

43. It is when it's couched in the usual terms like war crimes,

crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, genocide, a holocaust etc. Why oh why do so many want Jews in Israel to just sit there and take it because defending themselves is some kind of freaking EVIL thing?

[Idealism]

44. Point to where I have called Israeli crimes genocide, ethnic cleansing, or a holocaust.

I make it a point to correct those who incorrectly label them as such. International law, however, is not ambiguous about Israel's actions: they are war crimes. Just like Hamas' actions of rocket fire are war crimes- no one gets a free ride.

[Sezu]

50. If they are war crimes, why has nothing been done other than

talking about war crimes for almost 60 years? All that's been done other than that is useless theatre by powerless individuals and the odd powerless group. Yet REAL war crimes have been PROSECUTED in that time. You can SAY war crimes all you want; point and cry but them that can DO something about it don't seem to be on the same page do they? You don't suppose the Elders are exercising a little too much influence do ya?

:sarcasm:

[Idealism]

51. You should look up how the ICC works, and who is and isn't a signatory to it.

You should also look up when the ICC (Rome Statue) was first written and ratified. Then you can rephrase your question.

[Sezu]

52. Yes yes I know Israel is not a signatory but the ICC can

investigate if asked to by the UN. So far, no cigar.

[Idealism]

54. The security council has to pass a resolution brining it to the Prosecutor.

Which will not happen; the United States has veto power on the UNSC and they use it freely when concerning Israel.

[bemildred]

32. Isn't all the whining about hiding behind civilians about exactly that problem? nt

[The Second Stone]

41. They kill civilians knowing that their propagandist squads

will later deny that they ever happened. "Categorically false", "debunked". And when you complain they will ominously warn that they "note" who you are. No more support for Israel, Israel commits crimes against humanity.

[Sezu]

45. BS the freaking soldiers who spoke up in the FIRST place later

admitted it was all hearsay; they hadn't seen it. What part of that can't youi get through that noggin of yours? You commit crimes against rationality with this stupid shit.

[The Second Stone]

48. Then why did the IDF discipline the soldiers for wearing the shirts

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/23/2009-03-23_israels_military_rips_soldiers_for_weari-2.html

Some seem to not have the slightest comprehension of the evil they lie to support. Haaretz showed pictures of the shirts. So Haaretz is now in on the plot to lie about Israel? These kind of liars were born in Germany in the first part of the 20th century, and they told the same kind of of lies for the Nazis. Kust like Goebbels. And the dead victims of this lying are just as dead and were just as human as the victims of the Holocaust.

No more support for Israel.

[Sezu]

49. Try to stay on topic. We weren't talking t-shirts, we were talking

the hearsay allegations from soldiers some of whom were NEVER EVEN IN GAZA. Why is is folk like you can only keep piling on in a debate? For all I know, Jews had anti-Roman t-shirts way back when. You wanna bring that into play as well? How about leaving when women sing? Christ, dig up every thing you can remember and research for some others if that's the way you have to go.

Sheesh.

[The Second Stone]

53. No, you try to stay on topic

bragging about crimes against humanity is utterly despicable. So is the committing of those crimes. It is a lie to say that the crimes did not occur in light of the evidence around the world. Israel does not deserve the support of any country or group, including Jews. It is a criminal oppressive state. Israel is an apartheid state ghettoizing Gaza in the same manner the Warsaw Ghetto was oppressed prior to the liquidation. Israel's acts are evil.

[rateyes]

46. Nice of you to assume that these are the "facts" when they are presented

by the IDF's investigation of itself. Puts me in mind of that old question: "Who is going to guard the guards."

Do you think the IDF has a reason to cover up anything?

Which is more credible...a report from the IDF about alleged IDF atrocities, or a report from the International Red Cross about alleged IDF atrocities??

[bemildred]

56. Army says most Gaza fatalities were rebels

If I read this right, the idea is that Hamas etc. are "rebels" against Fatah/PLO/Abbas, and the IDF was defending Fatah/PLO in the Gaza offensive.

TEL AVIV — More than two months after its 22-day offensive in Gaza, Israel and the Palestinians continued yesterday to argue over the total number of Palestinian deaths and over civilians killed in the war. The Israeli military overnight published its own casualty figures of the offensive, saying at least 60 per cent of the total Palestinian dead were rebels. In a statement sent to the media it said that 1,166 Palestinians died in the offensive, adding it had collected their names and that 709 of them were rebels.

Most of these rebels were members of the Hamas movement ruling Gaza, while a “small number” were members of other rebel factions involved in fighting Israel, a military spokeswoman in Tel Aviv said yesterday. She said the figures are the result of a “thorough” investigation by the Research Department of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) Intelligence Corps. But the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre For Human Rights (PCHR), which published its own final death toll last week, accused Israel of trying to “distort reality.”

According to the PCHR, 1,417 Palestinians died in the offensive, nearly two-third of them civilians. It has published a list with all 1,417 names, detailing their ages, dates of death and other specifics. It says that of the dead, 236 were fighters and 255 non-combatant police officers, leaving 926 civilians, who include 313 minors and 116 women. The Israeli military said that of its 1,166 names, 295 civilians were certainly killed, including 89 children under the age of 16 and 49 women.

http://www.omanobserver.com/Daily/World/World3.htm

[shira]

58. IDF soldiers speak out

http://www.soldiersspeakout.com/