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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:14 AM
Original message
Report: No more than 600 died in Gaza
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The number of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead did not exceed five or six hundred, Lorenzo Cremonesi, a correspondent for Italy's Corriere della sera reported on Thursday.

Cremonesi based his report on tours of hospitals in the Gaza Strip and on interviews with families of casualties. He also assessed the number of wounded to be far lower than 5,000, the number quoted by Hamas and repeated by the UN and the Red Cross in Gaza.

"It is sufficient to visit several hospitals to understand that the numbers don't add up," he wrote.

In the European hospital in Rafah, one of the facilities which would presumably be filled with wounded from the "war of the tunnels," many beds were empty, according to Cremonesi. A similar situation was noted in the Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, and in the privately-run Amal Hospital Cremonesi reported that only five out 150 beds were occupied.

Cremonesi interviewed Gazans who echoed Israel's insistence of how Hamas gunmen used civilians as human shields. One Gazan recalled civilians in Gaza shouting at Hamas and Islamic Jihad men, "Go away, go away from here! Do you want the Israelis to kill us all? Do you want our children to die under their bombs? Take your guns and missiles with you."

"Traitors, collaborators with Israel, spies of Fatah, cowards! The soldiers of the holy war will punish you. And in any case you will all die, like us. Fighting the Zionist Jews we are all destined for paradise. Do you not wish to die with us?" the religious fanatics of Hamas reportedly responded.

Other Palestinians told Cremonesi of Hamas operatives donning paramedic uniforms and commandeering ambulances. A woman identified as Um Abdullah, 48, spoke of Hamas using UN buildings as launch pads for rockets.

Cremonesi reported that he had difficultly gathering evidence as the local population was terrified of Hamas.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. and the propaganda churns on and on. n/t
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. So how did you figure out a reliable number and why do you absolutely trust that source?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. What does it matter if it is 500 or 1300?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Gosh, what a silly question.
That's what happens with ivory tower moralizing. The difference is 800 people alive in one account and dead in the other. But 800 lives mean nothing to you. It's the principle of the thing.

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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. One Innocent Life Means Everything to Me.
The shame and suffering is compounded. Lesser numbers DO NOT justify the act of killing an innocent person.
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iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. Ernst Zündel, _Did Six Million Really Die?_
And wow, did Zundel search for nits! Because, as with you, it meant everything to him.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. I think the point is that whether it's 500 or 1300, it's still a lot.
Of course knowing the exact figure is important. But even the lower figure (which is unlikely, as the IDF have themselves contradicted it) would be tragic.

E.g. IIRC at first the estimate on 9-11 was that about 5000 people had been killed (I may be wrong on the exact figure, but it was certainly an overestimate). When it turned out to be 'only' 3000, of course it was a relief that 2000 fewer lives had been lost than originally feared; but that didn't make the 3000 lives that were lost any less tragic.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Well said. nt.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. The question is: "Why should I trust this source?"
He sounds like a shallow airhead.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Because Hamas, busy rounding up "collaborators", is so honest and humane.
YOU TRUST HAMAS????? Their own mothers don't trust them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. And really badly written propaganda at that. n/t
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is supposed to make me feel better?
Okayyyyyyyyyyy :eyes:
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BridgeTheGap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Let's see, over 1000 is an outrage - Under, acceptable collateral damage? n.t
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Oh, I see you working up to a fine, noble, haughty snit.
I'm so much simpler. 800 fewer people dead? 800 ALIVE who were counted dead? How annoyed you are that it might be so.

Would your morals be better satisfied if it were 800 MORE DEAD? Would your righteousness be appeased by that?

How ridiculous to object to the possibility of life.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. That sounds too close to the 'dems want the economy to fail' "argument".
No, we didn't. We wanted the truth to be told.

Same situation here...
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BridgeTheGap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. The only "deserving" lives to be lost would be those firing the rockets. n.t
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. That hundreds you thought dead might be alive?
Well, hey, if you'd rather they were dead...
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NOW tense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well if it was only 600 deaths
It was all okay then. Caring about human life is so last year.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. A dead civilian is a dead civilian.
Gaza has been decimated, many have been killed. I trust the Red Cross and the UN over JPOST.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. One in ten in Gaza were killed?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No.
1300+ were. Decimated does not only mean one in ten. It also means to inflict destruction.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. IDF denies report that no more than 600 people died in Gaza
By YAAKOV KATZ AND JPOST.COM STAFF

Despite a report by Lorenzo Cremonesi, a correspondent for Italy's Corriere della sera, that the number of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead did not exceed five or six hundred, Israeli defense officials on Thursday said there were around 1,300 Palestinians killed during the fighting in Gaza and that a majority of them were Hamas operatives.

The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration has already compiled a list with 900 names of Palestinians killed during the operation, out of which 750 are believed to be Hamas operatives.

The IDF estimated that two-thirds of those killed were gunmen affiliated with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror factions. At least 500 are believed to have been members of Hamas's military wing.

Hamas, defense officials said, purposely covered up the number of dead and on Sunday claimed that only 48 members of its military wing had been killed. Many bodies belonging to Hamas operatives were being stored, officials said, in the morgue in Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.

The vast majority of the Hamas operatives killed were not wearing uniforms to disguise their affiliation, another reason for the exaggerated estimate of civilian casualties by the United Nations.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Curiouser and curiouser....
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. I hope this lower estimate is correct, but even 600 is a lot of people.
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 10:21 AM by LeftishBrit
ETA. Apparently Israeli sources think this estimate is too low, and they would have no reason to wish to exaggerate it - rather the reverse.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. It strikes me as improbably low, but Hamas' figures don't add up either
It remains to be seen what emerges from the fog of war.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Well, not really.
If you have that big an assault, you want something to show for it. Or the other side can say, Big fucking deal.

It's the MidEast. Then, too, how many dead are Fatah sympathizers deliberately targeted by Hamas? Like the "collaborators" currently being disappeared. Like the 51 Fatah people Hamas was holding who ALL died in the assault. Not one wounded? Not one single prisoner wounded? Israel sure has good aim.

Grain of salt for every word from every mouth.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. How did he get in? nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I heard that journalists were now being allowed access again.
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 10:23 AM by redqueen
Is that not the case?

I've been sick for a few days and not keeping up.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. That's good.
I've been googleing Cremonisi, he's looks like an interesting guy, but I don't read enough Italian.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Interesting is a way of putting it
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 02:16 PM by azurnoir
especially in writings about Gaza, just for now though I'll take the UN and ICRC's word for it
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
24. We will never have an exact number
There are all sorts of incentives all over the place to distort the numbers of casualties of civilians and Hamas members up or down, and there are all sorts of opportunities to muddy it up and all sorts of ambiguities in how casualties are counted (who is Hamas, who is civilian, who is a little of both, who was killed by Israeli fire). Assuming the actual number is 1300, it is relevant how many were Hamas affiliates and how many were civilians without Hamas affiliation, and it is relevant how the deaths came about - the extent to which Israeli forces exercised caution in pursuing the military objectives (which is a different question than whether the military objectives were justified by the anticipated number of casualties), and the extent to which Hamas brought about (as a tactic to win the PR war) conditions whereby the Israeli operation would have higher civilian deaths. We are hearing every party spin all this in the way most favorable to themselves and most damning to the other side. No source at this point is automatically credible, there is a lot to sort through, and even then, the truth may be less murky but it won't be entirely clear.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. the Israelis only murdered 600...?
Well, that makes it all better. :sarcasm:
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. I wondered how long it would take for the deniers to lurch out. nt
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Officials: More than 600 died in Gaza
Despite a report by Lorenzo Cremonesi, a correspondent for Italy's Corriere della sera, that the number of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead did not exceed five or six hundred, Israeli defense officials on Thursday said there were around 1,300 Palestinians killed during the fighting in Gaza and that a majority of them were Hamas operatives.

The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration has already compiled a list with 900 names of Palestinians killed during the operation, out of which 750 are believed to be Hamas operatives.

The IDF estimated that two-thirds of those killed were gunmen affiliated with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror factions. At least 500 are believed to have been members of Hamas's military wing.

Hamas, defense officials said, purposely covered up the number of dead and on Sunday claimed that only 48 members of its military wing had been killed. Many bodies belonging to Hamas operatives were being stored - officials said - in the morgue in Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. To be honest, 1300 probably is lowballing it
Bodies still need to be pulled from the rubble :/
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Just pointing out that the IDF itself refutes this guy. nt
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. That won't stop ol' Dick from repeating it as gospel
And condemning your post as "propaganda" (although maybe in this case, he will call it "unconfirmed")
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Still not paying attention, are you?
Edited on Fri Jan-23-09 12:24 AM by Fozzledick
See post # 7 above.

Maybe I should just call it "echo".
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Maybe you should look at past examples
There has been a long history of denial stemming from your misconceptions.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. I can discuss it with Mr Dick myself, if I choose to, thanks. nt
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Their Basis For Doing, Sir
Is their claims of total Hamas militants they have killed. These may be as much an over-statement as their claims in Lebanon in '06 seem to have been.

It is going to be a while before figures that can be regarded as accurate appear from any source.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Yes, I know. I'm not making any claims about the facts. nt
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. None Is Made By Me Either, Sir
This report is, simply, interesting....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Maybe the IDF is exaggerating the number
Make it seem like they killed more militants than they actually did.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
43. Full translation of Italian article - MUST READ - narrative killer
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 04:32 PM by shira
Doubts on the Number of Victims: Could be 600 rather than 1300
Lorenzo Cremonesi
Il Corriere della Sera
January 21, 2009

GAZA - “Get away! Get away from here! Do you want the Israelis to kill everyone? Do you want our children to die under the bombs? take your missiles and weapons away,” the inhabitants of the Gaza strip yelled at the Hamas militants and their allies in Islamic Jihad. The more courageous were organized and blocked the entrances to their courtyards and locked the doors to their buildings, barricading quickly and furiously the stairs to the highest rooftops.

But for all of that the guerrillas didn’t listen to anyone. “Traitors, collaborators with Israel, spies of Fatah, cowards! The soldiers of the holy war will punish you. And in any case you will all die, like us. Fighting the Zionist Jews we are all destined for paradise. Do you not wish to die with us?” This is what they yelled furiously as they broke down doors and windows, hiding themselves on high floors, gardens, using ambulances and barricading themselves near the hospitals, schools and buildings of the UN.

In extreme cases the shot those who sought to block them from their streets and houses to save their own families, or they beat them savagely. “The Hamas Militants looked for good places to provoke the Israelis. They were usually youths, 16 or 17 years old, armed with submachine guns. They couldn’t do anything against a tank or jet. They knew they were much weaker. But they wanted the to shoot at the houses so they could accuse them of more war crimes” asserted Abu Issa, 42, resident of the Tel Awa neighborhood.

“Practically all of the tallest buildings in Gaza that were hit by Israeli bombs, like the Dogmoush, Andalous, Jawarah, Siussi, and many others, had rocket launching pads on their roofs, or were observation decks for the Hamas. They had also put them near the big UN warehouse, which went up in flames. The same goes for the villages in the valley along the border who were more devastated by the mad fury and punishment of the Zionist,” echoes his cousin Um Abdallah, 48. They use family nicknames, but they provide important circumstantial details. It was difficult to get these testimonials. In general, fear of Hamas prevails and the ideological alimentary taboos reign in this century of wars with the “Zionist enemy.”

Those who recount a different version than the story imposed by the “Muhamawa” (the resistance) is automatically an “Amil,” a collaborator and is risking his life. However, the recent fratricidal collision between Hamas and Olp helps. If Israel or Egypt had allowed foreign journalists to enter immediately it would have been easier. These Locals are often threatened by Hamas.

“This is not a new fact, in the Middle East, Arab societies are missing the cultural traditions of human rights. It happened during Arafat’s regime that the press started being persecuted and censured. With Hamas it is even worse,” said Eyad Sarraj, a noted psychiatrist in Gaza City.

And there is another fact coming to light ever more obviously, visiting the hospitals, clinics and families of the victims of Israeli fire: In reality their numbers appear much lower than 1300 dead and another 5000 injured, as reported by the men of Hamas and repeated by the UN officials and the local Red Cross. “The dead can’t be more than 500 or 600. There are many youths between 17 and 23, recruited by Hamas, who sent them quite literally to the slaughter.” Said the doctor from the Shifah hospital who under no circumstances wanted to be quoted for he risked his life.

This data has been confirmed by the local journalist. “We already pointed this out to the heads of Hamas. Why do they insist on inflating the number of victims? Its strange on the other hand that the NGOs, also the western ones, report them without and verification. In the end the truth may come to light. It could be like Jenin in 2002. Initially we spoke about 1500 dead. Then it came out that there were only 54, of whom at least 45 were militants who died in battle.”

How do we arrive at this figure? “Lets take the case of the Al Samoun family massacre in the Zeitun neighborhood. When the bomb landed on their houses they reported that they had 31 dead. And this is how they were registered with the officials of the Health department which is controlled by Hamas. But then, when the bodies were effectively recovered the sum total was doubled to 62 and this si how they are computed into the final balance,” explained Masoda Al Samoun, 24 years old.

And he added in an interesting detail: “To create confusion there were the Israeli special squadrons. They were dressed up as Hamas militants with many green bandanas tied in front with the customary writing: there is no other God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. They slipped in to create chaos. We yelled at them to leave, fearing the retaliation but later we realized they were Israeli.”

Its sufficient to visit a few hospitals to understand that the numbers don’t add up. There are many empty beds in the European Hospital in Rafah, one of the that should be most involved with the victims of the Israeli “war of the tunnels.” The same goes for the “Nasser” of Kahn Yunis. Only 5 out of the 150 beds in the private hospital of Al-Amal are occupied. In Gaza city the Wafa was evacuated, constructed with “charitable Islamic” donations from Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Countries of the Gulf, and bombed by Israel at the end of December. The Institute is marked as being a stronghold of Hamas, this is where it’s fighters came to recuperate after the civil war with Fatah in 2007. The others, however, stayed at Al Quds, which in turn was bombed the second half of the week in January.”

Talking about this event, Magah al Rachmah, 25 inhabitant no less than ten meters from the four large buildings of the health complex, today seriously damaged. “Hamas’s Men hid themselves mostly in the building that houses the administrative officials of Al Quds. They used the ambulances and they forced ambulance drivers and paramedics to take off their uniforms with the symbols of paramedics on them so that they would be able to better confuse and escape the Israeli snipers.” All of this vastly reduced the number of beds available in the health institutions of Gaza. Also,

Shifah, the biggest hospital in the city, is very far from exhausting all of it’s resources. It seems in fact that they are densely occupied with their underground tunnels. Hamas hid the emergency jails and the interrogation rooms for the prisoners of Fatah and the people who were evacuated from the bombarded prison of Saraja,” said the militants of the democratic front for the liberation of Palestine.

This between Fatah and Hamas was a war within a war. The local humanitarian organizations, mainly controlled by the UN, tell of “dozens of executions, torture chambers, and kidnappings in the last three weeks” committed by Hamas. One of the more notable cases is that of Achmad Shakhura, 47 years old, resident of the Khan Yunis and brother of Khaled, the right hand man of Mohammed Dahlan (the former head of Yasser Arafat’s security services, now exiled) who was kidnapped by order of the head of Hamas’s local secret police, Abu Abdullah Al Kidra, and subsequently tortured, his left eye ripped out and, in the end, killed on the 15th of January.
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I prefer facts, and even the IDF disputes the "only 600 dead" lie
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
45. Too bad this guy doesn't write for Vanity Fair
Maybe he'd have more credibility that way.
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