IDF uncovers booby-trapped school next to zoo in Gaza

[GoesTo11]

Israel Defense Forces troops this week uncovered a school in the Gaza Strip rigged by Hamas militants with a large amount of explosives.

The school, located next to a Gaza zoo, was entirely surrounded by a fuse connecting to the explosives. Inside the abandoned classrooms, IDF troops found a number of weapons.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054533.html

[PDJane]

1. Since the IDF targets schools, it's not an outrageous act.

[Fozzledick]

2. Hamas targets schools, IDF targets weapons

and this outrageous act clearly demonstrates how Hamas deliberately murders Palestinian civilians to produce propaganda.

[Duckhunter935]

3. nothing to see here - move on now

[Howardx]

4. more than likely

its just more idf lies. let me ask you a question fozzledick, would you implicitly trust the word of the US army the way you do israels?

[Fozzledick]

7. This is consistent with numerous unrefuted reports from many sources

as well as Hamas' general strategy of appealing for international sympathy by getting as many civilians killed as they can.

[Howardx]

11. "numerous unrefuted reports"

who could refute them? the journalists israel doesnt allow in? all your "numerous unrefuted reports" start with an IDF source and are extremely suspect. i notice you choose not to answer my question. not surprising.

[Fozzledick]

12. Let me know when you stop beating your wife...

:eyes:

[Howardx]

13. dont have a wife

and thats still not an answer, why does someone who posts on a progressive, democratic website automatically believe what some military spokesman tells them? again i ask would you be as trusting of a us army spokeman as you apparently are of an isreali?

[Duckhunter935]

8. I do not trust either side, both have an agenda

[ShadesOfGrey]

9. I don't either. Also, with the reports of IDF posing as Hamas...

how does anyone know for certain who is doing what? :crazy:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. There seems to be only one seminal source for that report that I have found. Do you have others?

Looking for verification that is actually happening. If it were long term, it would explain the level of intelligence Israel had on Hamas.

[atreides1]

10. Actually

Hamas' targeting is accidental at best, considering that the rockets they fire have no guidance system, they just fall on what happens to be on the ground when they run out of fuel.

Israeli missiles and bombs on the other hand can be targeted, like in the case of the UN school!

By the way what weapons were located at that UN school again?

[Duckhunter935]

16. If they are using dumb munitions you have the CEP

In the military science of ballistics, circular error probable (CEP) or circular error probability is an intuitive measure of a weapon system's accuracy. It is defined as a circle, centered about the mean, whose boundary is expected to include 50% of the population within it.<1>

The original concept of CEP was based on a Circular Bivariate Normal distribution (CBN) with CEP as a parameter of the CBN just as μ and σ are parameters of the normal distribution. Munitions with this distribution behavior tend to cluster around the aim point, with most reasonably close, progressively fewer and fewer further away, and very few at long distance. That is, if CEP is n meters, 50% of rounds land within n meters of the target, 43% between n and 2n, and 7 % between 2n and 3n meters, and the proportion of rounds that land farther than three times the CEP from the target is less than 0.2%.

This distribution behavior is often not met. Precision-guided munitions generally have more 'close misses' and so are not normally distributed. Munitions may also have larger standard deviation of range errors than the standard deviation of azimuth (deflection) errors, resulting in an elliptical confidence region. Munition samples may not be exactly on target, that is, the mean vector will not be (0,0). This is referred to as bias.

In order to apply the CEP concept in these conditions, we can define CEP as the square root of the mean error squared (MSE). The MSE will be the sum of the variance of the range error plus the variance of the azimuth error plus the covariance of the range error with the azimuth error plus the square of the bias. Thus the MSE results from pooling all these sources of error, geometrically corresponding to radius of a circle within which 50 % of rounds will land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_error_probable

Yes they can be more accurate but not perfect as some would believe

[marybourg]

17. That's ridiculous

I try to avoid the pro terrorist provocation which is so pervasive on this site, but I happened to blunder into this. Unguided missiles are ok, but guided ones which at least make an effort to target military sites are to be condemned? This is sensible leftist thought? Bizarre

[Fozzledick]

20. The party line is that any attack on Israel is ok, but any defensive response is condemned

All the rest is just variations on this simple theme.

[Fozzledick]

18. Hamas aims their rockets at schools and fires when students are entering and exiting

Their lack of accuracy does not excuse their murderous intent.

BTW, the weapons fired from the immediate vicinity of the U.N. school to deliberately draw counter-battery fire onto the school itself would appear to be mortars, as confirmed by two Palestinian eye-witnesses, but it's still unclear whether the secondary explosions that killed most of the students were from ammunition piled outside the school's walls or explosive booby-traps placed inside.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Have some sources for some of what you have claimed.

Shiva also made the timing claim, akin to the one made about a mosque attack. Looking for any stats or backup you have for the claim.

There have been multiple UN buildings/schools hit. I agree that radar directed counter battery fire is being most likely being employed. However at which school were there secondary explosions and what sources do you have for that?

I am driving Dog Pound crazy since he has no credible sources, but I also am asking the same questions of you.

[cboy4]

37. They are the propaganda kings.

Boy are you right about that.

Just look at how gullible so many DUers are!!11!

[cali]

5. uh, yeah it's outrageous.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. There have been other reports of extensive boobytraping

It may be the "dud submunition" of this conflict. Lots of post conflict casualities in the making.

[DogPoundPup]

14. LOL...so THEY say...LET THE JOURNALISTS IN TO VERIFY these flimsy accusations

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. And when they get killed, the Israeli's will be blamed

There have been many reports that Hamas so far has been much fewer in number and making extensive use of booby traps

[DogPoundPup]

22. The Israeli's ARE to blame...40 years of illegal military occupation and now this?

We are just to sit back and stay calm while people are massacred? What the hell?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. To be clear, if a reporter or stringer gets killed in Gaza by a Hamas boobytrap its Isreal's fault

in your opinion?

[DogPoundPup]

25. To be clear WAR JOURNALISTS are in the annals of history going back

in history for centuries. Have you not read about them before or does all your info come from Israeli sources?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Pls answer the question...if journalist died in a Hamas booby trap, would Isreal be at fault?

As for war correspondents, they have always been controlled, censored, and vetted. That they wander around on their own is a very new concept, and that they should somehow be untouched in the middle of an urban war is even newer and quite unrealistic.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Actually, you seemed to say that in #22 up thread...just looking to confirm

[DogPoundPup]

32. You make unsubstantialted posts about booby traps being set

just like the Israeli's can say whatever they like happened in their murders of innocent people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. Unsubstantiated? Hamas is bragging about it...

However, I did a google search using "Gaza Booby Traps". Here are some of the URLs found on the first and second page. Many trace back to the AP story. IHT and NYT may have done their own work. Not all are from sources I would trust were it not covered elsewhere.

The use of booby traps is clearly substantiated and is also to be expected in asymmetric urban warfare.
=================
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/11/mideast/tactics.php?WT.mc_id=rssmostemailed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3653059,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24888820-2703,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054533.html
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7zx5h_idf-reveals-hamas-boobytrap-school_news
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=121&x_article=707
http://www.pr-inside.com/israeli-troops-move-deeper-into-urban-r1000171.htm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2095127.ece
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331054823&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=125&sid=4275990
http://www.rightsidenews.com/200901113295/global-terrorism/hamas-in-gaza-urban-warfare-strategy.html

[EFerrari]

31. Are there any journalists left in Gaza, with the illegal ban and the Israeli bombing

of their offices?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Clearly there are some reports getting out of Gaza around IDF censorship

Several seem to report via email, LAT, IHT, and others are also claiming on site reporting. I am assuming its some form of cellular comms since there are still stories coming out of Gazans receiving calls to get out etc.

The real issue is that vetting, verification, and fact checking is damn near impossible. Both sides are spinning their lines and its really hard to tell where the truth is, especially on any real time event.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

21. Indefensible, if true.

We need journalists in Gaza.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. There are multiple reports of Hamas making extensive use of booby traps

There is also a lot of confusion and hyperbole all over the news wires.

My main concern is that they traps will remain "armed" and be a major cause of death after the hostilities end.

[azurnoir]

26. You mean like the cluster munitions Israel left in Lebanon? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Actually its worse

Dud sub-munitions look pretty much alike (there are several different models) and are readily identifiable. Booby traps are designed not to be recognized and are generally more deadly (more explosives, daisy chains, etc).

*IF* the use of booby traps is as widespread as some sources indicate, it could make Lebanon look small in terms of post conflict civilian casualties.

[azurnoir]

43. I answered that in another post but

it is a good thing we know who to blame the deaths of Gazan civilians on when they're still dieing after the war

[ohio2007]

33. Hamas Booby Trapped School and Zoo ( video )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU

It can always be claimed it was 'planted' propaganda.

[azurnoir]

34. Nope not planted at all

what I noticed is that they concentrated on the zoo and only showed the school from a distance shot and even then it appeared to bombed out a bit.
Are the booby trap real possibly but it seems that IDF is uncanny at finding them

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Its called Combat Engineers

Some of the Israeli casualties are from CE units. They specialize in structural stuff including mines, booby traps, and EOD. In this kind of situation, the infantry would not go into empty buildings that were not cleared by a CE team. Pretty standard practice in urban fighting. However, if they do not clear the building, any booby traps would be left live for Gazans to find the hard way.

Mines and other concealed devices are supposed to be recorded by the planting side and disarmed/removed as soon as practical after the fighting is over. That is next to impossible given the nature of Hamas and the kind of fighting going on.

[azurnoir]

42. Well its a good thing this is being

announced so loudly now huh? or else people might get the wrong impression afterward when Gazan civilians start getting blown up

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Hamas has bragged about it, IDF has publicized it as well. I have to think that the IDF

is laying a few of their own when they find a Hamas weapons cache. Hamas might also have planted some on some caches to kill Israelis. Its a nasty business.

Hopefully, when the conflict ends the booby traps will all be found and neutralized, whomever planted them. Somehow I doubt that will actually happen.

[happyslug]

41. So, this is obviously NOT intended for the children of the school, the bombs are for the IDF

That was common in Vietnam, the Viet Cong would tell Local where the bombs were so the locals could avoid them, but the Americans would NOT be told even by the natives and get hit by the various traps. Even children as young as two and three quickly learn NOT to go to certain places because they friends and family do not (And younger children are NOT left to go that far from their mothers). Thus such a booby-trap is perfectly safe for the locals, they know HOW to avoid setting it off, it is people who do NOT know where the booby-traps are that such bobby-traps are set for.

Now, remember the biggest source of injuries from "mines" are NOT booby-traps or mine fields, these tend to be clearly marked, OR both the natives and the side that planted know where they are and avoid them before, doing and after the planting of the mines (And many people avoid the areas for years afterward, even after the mines had been removed).

The biggest source of injuries from "mines" are from air dropped or artillery drops "route denial munitions". These are bombs or shells that blow up about 20 feet above the surface but the explosion is NOT one of high Explosives but the dispersement of various small mines, mines design to be seen, but bombs that are NOT marked and been know to bounce hundreds of feet away from the impact area. It is these lose mines that are the problem in most countries that have a problems with "land mines". The purpose of most such mines in NOT to kill an adult, but to wound him, so he must be sent back to get medical care, medical care that must be provided or the troops lose morale. AS I said these can last for decades. The US has opposed anti-mine laws do to the fact the US uses more of these "route denial munitions" then any other country. It is the best way to use air power to defeat infantry.

Remember Infantry on seeing air planes hides for cover and waits for the plane to go by then resumes their march, the plane can only attack infantry that it can see and good infantry makes every effort NOT to be seen, given that most planes can only attack for 10 to 30 minutes or they run out of fuel or weapons, planes are NOT much of a problem for Infantry. The problem is the support elements for the infantry, the supply trucks, the artillery, the tanks. These are all much larger then an infantryman and harder to hide (and given modern heat detectors the engines of such vehicles are even easy to find under tree cover, if the engines had been on recently).

Thus the best way to stop such a leg infantry attack to somehow stop it from going through an area. Air Power can NOT hold terrain. During Vietnam this was found to be a huge problem, air Power could drop bombs anywhere in Vietnam within about 20 minutes, but the Viet Cong developed a policy of AVOIDING detection so it was hard to find out where they were. Furthermore, while Air Power could destroy any infantry unit once detected, this was only a 10-30 minute window of opportunity do to the fuel and weapons limitations of the airplanes. The issue kept coming back how do you keep the Viet Cong from moving men and supplies down paths and roads 24 hours a day? Air power could do it for 30 minutes at a clip, but sooner or later the path would be free of air cover and the Viet Cong would move. The Air Forces looked around and with the high losses of US troops (and the deterioration of US troops after 1968) something other then US troops were needed (The Army of South Vietnam was used, but found to be ineffective as the US Army in this job, given the massive support for the Viet Cong in most of the Areas Controlled by the Viet Cong). Thus route denial munitions seem to be the Answer, these could be dropped by plane during their 30 minute combat mission, but the mines could stay active for months and years afterward. The Viet Cong would face losing a lot of its personnel if it passed through the area with such route denial munitions. The Viet Cong would have three choices, retreat, go around or remove the mines. Retreat was rarely an option but the Viet Cong did do it when needed. Most times the reason the Viet Cong took the path they did was because it was the best way, and sometime the only way, to get to the target, thus removal of the mines was what the Viet Cong have to do and that would take time (The best way to to hit each mine with a 50 caliber round, setting it off, 7.62mm rounds were less effective at this but used). In the Jungle of Vietnam the Viet Cong would only remove what was needed to get through, they would tell the natives of the mines and tell the natives how to remove them, but they did not have time to remove all of them. The natives would know about the mines and avoid the areas, but the mines that cause the most damage were the ones that bounced way away from the impact area, these tended to be defective in another way, the safety catch to make sure the mines did NOT blow up when dropped from its casing in these high bounce mines tend to hold on so that they did NOT explode when first kicked or otherwise discovered. They blow up once in the hands of a child who picked it up years after it had been dropped and often years after the native have all forgotten about the dropping of the mines.

Thus the problem is not and has never been Booby-traps like the one found in this school, those are quickly removed afterward or otherwise made harmless. The problem are the Mines dropped from planes to deny movement to ground forces. I fully suspect Israel is using such weapons in Gaza, they have them in their arsenal provided by the US tax payer. My point is simple, this is NOT the type of mine that is killing people years after a war has ended, the type of mines that does so are in the exclusive hands of Israel for they have the only means to use them. Remember Hamas has no Planes not heavy artillery so even if Hamas had them, Hamas has no way to use them i.e. no launching system. Hamas does have some Small Rockets but the Rockers can only hold one or two of the mines so not worth the effort to launch. This is a Hamas defensive booby trap NOT a mine that will kill children years from now.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. You clearly do not know urban warfare...this is not Vietnam with a three tiered canopy.

Booby traps will remain functional as long as the mechanical trigger remains in place and the explosive components do not degrade. In buildings this will be quite some time. Depending on the quantity (lots according to both Hamas and the IDF), many will survive the hostilities. However there will be little to no records available to know where they are located. Every building, including every house will have to be gone over looking for them. Some will be missed and more often, people will not wait to return to their homes. Then BOOM.

I saw a couple of claims of artillery distributed mines. No confirmation. Tactically they would make little to no sense, so I would not expect them to be used, however, the IDF may have a different idea.

I full expect Hamas has mines in its inventory. Cheap and easy to use. However, there have been no reports of them being used. They may well be buried with a lot of other ordnance after the air strikes.

This risk has the potential to be worse than the dud sub munitions in Lebanon



On Edit: IDF is now claiming the use of AT mines by Hamas. See it here:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28606815#28606815

[DogPoundPup]

46. Looks like a pretty sloppy 'booby-trap' to me ... see for yourself

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28606815#28606815

Oh and oh yea, "Israeli officials say"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. That is one out of how many?

Have you considered that it is the bait for a much better one, designed to kill Combat Engineers who are highly trained and few in number?

Do you understand the use of primary devices deigned to bring in help and secondary devices designed to kill first responders?


Hamas and IDF are both claiming lots of booby traps, so its clearly substantiated that they are out there. The real issue is not now, but afterward when they start killing civilians

[DogPoundPup]

48. Do you understand Israeli F-15's, pilotless drones,tanks, attack helicopters

and whatever else murderous weapons Israell is using to kill these innocent people? Now we're all in a fuss about some booby-traps? It's been outrageous from the start of this murderous campaign, but now it is really getting pretty outrageously stupid to squabble over booby-traps.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Yes I do

I agree its a bit of a side issue while the conflict is going on. Afterward that will change. Depending on the number of booby traps they could kill and maim even more than the air strikes.

[ohio2007]

52. Hamas are not considered "the brightest bulbs"out there so 'sloppy' is

what sloppy training does



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7cb_1217106750


ever see the YouTube vids of those morons jumping through hoops of fire?

whats up with that?

didn't help these fools out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drlUxHqQYbc&feature=PlayList&p=393B999453F81CD1&playnext=1&index=73

Even Pakistan military unwittingly poked fun at Hamas recently when they felt the need to saber rattle quotes with India

How Hamas treat it's civillians..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e42_1231416294

Unless that last vid is a photo shop chop job ;)
Palestinians should rise up against these 'freedom fighters' many here seem to hold in high esteem

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. A friend opined it might have been a remote detonation device, not a booby trap

Not near enough coverage on the video to tell, and the media rarely gets that kind of distinction correct

[happyslug]

49. Gaza ia a compact environment, with a lot of locals

One of the comments I read about it years ago was a child was lost, an adult said where did he lived, he mentioned a town in present day Israel, the adult knew what that meant, the area of Gaza settled by people from that town and took him to that part of Gaza and the child found his family.

That type of cliques is common in most of the world, you move to areas where you have friends and relatives and when you live in a refugee camp you move to be near friends and relatives. Thus all of Gaza is a set of little home towns, and the people of those home towns know all about not only their old home town (Which most have NOT been in since 1948) but they new home town. My point was clear, booby-traps are rarely set to catch one's supporters. The best way to make sure this is NOT done is to tell them about it. That is what happened in Vietnam and I believe is what is happening in Gaza. The Palestinians are NOT going to tell the Israelis where the booby-traps are, but will tell their friends, neighbors and relatives. The people who set these booby-traps want support of the people of Gaza so they will tell them of any booby-traps. The only people who will NOT be told are the Israelis (Who hate this, but that is the problem of invading a city where almost everyone hates you).

As to MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) I am familiar with the concepts, one of which is NEVER to enter a building through any doorway, window or even old blasts holes. You enter via a new blast holes, one you blast yourself OR blasted for you just as you enter the building. This is to avoid preset booby-traps AND potential fire from pre set gun position covering the previous openings. Given this situation I doubt the Israelis are entering any of these buildings via the front door (or any door or window for that matter) but through new blast holes OR are avoiding them all together (Or using the old tactic, forbidden as a war crime, of forcing local through the door and buildings first).

My point was NOT that this trap was known to the local and NOT a threat to them, it was aimed and would have been used against the invading Israelis. Schools are often large buildings that are often grab to be used as supply and headquarters buildings in such operations. I fully suspect that was HAMAS plan, to wait for the upper floors to be occupied by the IDF and then to blow it from below. Another factor fro MOUT, secure not only the building but what is below the building. Scarcely part that is probably how it was found, some unit wanted to use the School as a Headquarters but followed procedures to have someone check the building including the basement, where the booby-trap was found. This caused the IDF unit to evacuate themselves from the Building before some HAMAS soldier set off the explosives. Again NOT a threat to the locals, but a clear threat at the invading IDF units.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Those are well structured tactics, and probably exist

But both sides are claiming a lot of improvised/hasty/local traps set in rubble of already damaged buildings. Those are the ones that will kill civilians, much more than the larger structured ones. They will be undocumented as well. That means that the locals will not know unless the bubbas setting them survive and pass on the information. I also believe that the IDF will be leaving some of their own behind on weapons caches they find, dropping off tampered weapons, ammunition and ordnance. All standard stuff these days. I fully expect that there will be a steady stream of casualties in Gaza due to such things and that it will not make the news anywhere but in Gaza.

I did see in another posting where the IDF reservists moving in have all had extensive environment specific MOUT training prior to going to combat.

[The Second Stone]

54. This is good police work the IDF did

And it prevented people from getting hurt. Kudos for confirming a good lead.

[EFerrari]

57. And I hope none of them tripped over that 2" extension cord!

[HeraldSquare212]

55. "Dear Hamas, We will fight you everywhere in Gaza, but you can only fight us at certain points."

[cali]

56. uh, Hamas putting weapons in a school- if it's true-

is hardly helpful to the people of Gaza. duh.

[HeraldSquare212]

58. I don't think school is in session, eh? From what I'm reading Gaza residents are staying indoors

except for during the humanitarian pause.

[EFerrari]

59. Right. They're taking a slaughter day. n/t