the consequences of israel not reacting (mods if you will indulge me...)

[pelsar]

the consequences of israel not reacting
I get the impression that for many its best if israel did not use military force...that is a legit option to discuss, but whats missing is the consequences of such a policy:

i'm wondering if the consequences of that policy is 'fair" to the israelis?

For those that promote such a policy arent they infact saying that the israelis along the border (and now beyond...) should be "satisfied" (given the other options) to play russian roulette with the incoming kassams/grads..have their days interrupted (showers, dinners, classes) with a 15- second run to the nearest shelter (sederot)..not go out to work in the fields, not have a social life...or at least make sure they've got that 15 second sprint ready to the shelter if they do....

is it reasonable to let so many people live in a world where missiles fall at random, (for years now)..where a normal social/work life no longer happens, since no parent/school wants that responsibility on their shoulders (friends coming/trips over, etc, board meetings don't happen as there is no shelter for everyone, etc)...and yes i am very aware how a 1000kg bomb can "interrupt" ones dinner.

furthermore its reasonable to assume that the hamasnikim will be perfecting their guidance system and increase the range (as we now know they can....today over 500,000 israelis are now in range of the kassams (estimated). and what happens when they do actually hit school, a hospital, a grocery store...

but the most bizarre is that for those promoting that israel should not attempt to stop the kassams etc is that they are promoting that one side should live under the constant threat (the israelis), and the other, who is actually doing the shooting, should live in peace and security...that doesnt sound a bit "upside down?

It maybe that some feel that the israelis deserve it...that too is a legit viewpoint, or that the Hamasnikim have no choice, or that the military solution is in fact not a solution and there is no realistic solution in the short term....etc.....at least let those viewpoints be heard.

the discussion if possible are actual relevant solutions...no "pie in sky" kumbaya type fantasies please

[EFerrari]

1. There is no real military solution. It seems to be mostly theater

on the part of the Israeli government and the people on both sides suffer. Palestinians are getting killed and the long term security of Israel is being put into further jeopardy.

The international community must engage both Israel and Hamas in a serious way. That was not possible while Bush was in office. I hope the new administration will do much better. :(

[subsuelo]

7. I just heard 365 killed. That's twice the number dead after the Mumbai attacks

[pelsar]

8. that doesnt answer the OP....

can i infer that your preference is that the israelis spend their lives "running to shelters" at all times of the day and night as opposed to the IDF attempt to stop it?

it could be your preference that its better to have their lives disrupted than for others to be dead.....it doesnt take much to write it our clearly.

[EFerrari]

46. And that's just people who die in the bombing.

What about people who need urgent medical care -- like insulin? What about those without water or food? What about those who will die of their wounds -- there are about 1,400 wounded last I heard. :shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

2. I think what the others are saying is that a negotiated settlement is possible

or, at the very least, that if the blockade were lifted Hamas would stop firing rockets. I think only a few people, at most, are arguing that Israel should just tolerate the daily spate of rocket attacks. I think the argument is that non-military methods of stopping the rockets would be possible and preferable.

[pelsar]

3. a negotiated settlement does not happen in a day...

during all the negotiations, whether they be in secret or out in the open, the fighting has continued...its reasonable to assume that if and when there are negotiations the kassams will fall..as they did during the negotiations for the calm period.....(assuming hamas remains in power....i have no illusions to know where this is going nor the consequences of it...)

so the question remains...even during negotiations are the israelis to sit back and do nothing?.......

i have no problem with the non military methods...i'm just not sure what those are...(besides negotiation.....which may or may not play out)

[rockymountaindem]

4. Not saying I agree with them

That's just my interpretation of their argument.

[Recursion]

71. Hamas's offer was no rockets in exchange for no blockade

The rockets and the blockade both kill civilians. I'd love to see them both stop. Hamas has offered to stop firing rockets in exchange for an end to the blockade. I'd like to see Israel try that.

[sellitman]

80. But why was there a blockade in the first place?

Once the Hamas regime gained power rockets were then launched.

Israel then set up the blockade.

Were they to allow the rockets to continue?


In other words, Israel shouldn't do anything but live with a barrage of rockets from Gaza?

[LeftishBrit]

5. A question is:

is the military action actually *effective* in stopping these things from happening?

[pelsar]

6. that we will find out.....

one of the more interesting aspects of the middle east is that things never seem to turn out as planned...israelis 6 day war turned out long term to be a disaster..its 73 war turned out to bring peace.....lebanons 82 war brought in hizballa...oslos peace brought in hamas.....lebanon II may bring hizballa to power in lebanon (and iran)...gaza 2006 has brought together egypt/saudia arabia/israel.......sort of...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. How many thousands will die so that the daily life in Sderot is un-disrupted by occupation?

Should Israelis be allowed to live everyday life as la-di-da, while they have their boots on the necks of millions? YOu should all be able to work, educate, your kids, dance in the disco, drink coffee on the street while you're starving 1.5 million in Gaza? While you deny basic human and political rights to EVERY PALESTINIAN IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA?

WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN?

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE JEWS HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO THESE THINGS BUT NOT THE ARABS YOU ARE SUBJUGATING?

Do you fail to see the fundamental racism of your position? You believe the problem is the reaction to ongoing occupation. The problem is that Gazan and WBers don't passively accept the denial of the human and political rights.

Do you really think that's fair?

Regardless, why didn't Israeli live up to its end of the truce?

You think you can bomb Gazans into submission? You are crazy. The events of this week have sealed the fate of the region.

But I read the residents of Sderot are "satisfied." Goody goody.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28431066/

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Your mask is slipping.

"WHY DO YOU BELIEVE JEWS HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO THESE THINGS BUT NOT THE ARABS YOU ARE SUBJUGATING?"

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. WTF are you talking about?

I am asking Pelsar why he believe that very statement.

Clearly, he believes the Jewish residents of Sderot have a right to live life as though their government is not committing hideous human rights violations.

If anyone here wears a mask, it's you, you phoney. You're the one who runs back to a hate site filled with impotent, IDF-wannabe-dreck that got kicked of the DU, to whine about how mean the DU mods are, blah, blah, blah. "6 days bitch!" You and your hate buddies make me sick.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Touch a nerve?

Yes, your mask is certainly slipping. Figured it out? I doubt it.

[eyl]

14. Since you put it that way

Do the people of Gaza have the right to live as though Hamas is not committing human rights violations?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. Poor, poor Israel. Always the victim.

Nice try dude.

This is not a conflict between nations, it's a conflict between a nuclear-armed, developed nation and an impoverished civilian population which has been under occupation for 40+ years.

I guess the hasbara is working.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. LOL!

Yes, logical responses to your nonsense is the work of the evil "Hasbara." :eyes: Wait...maybe it is AIPAC! Oooo! Maybe it is a group you don't even know about! :eyes:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Sure... I guess PR strategies that are discussed in the MSM are

anti-Jewish conspiracies...

[Behind the Aegis]

23. That probably only makes sense to you.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Actually, Israel's spin machine and its attempt to whitewash their bloodbath has been discussed here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x228686

[eyl]

60. I notce you didn't answer the question....n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Quick, BTA... Run back to the hate site and report my post....

you and your buds can giggle about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. I must have really tounched a nerve.

:(

Kiss for your boo-boo?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I really hit a nerve. GOOD!

[azurnoir]

29. Can you explain just who repulsivemuslim is?

or whitetrash or DTD or DTA was it I really do not remember but your so into hitting nerves

[Scurrilous]

32. You've got your nickname!

Congrats! :thumbsup:

BTW...I'm 'Scurvy' (amongst others).

[azurnoir]

33. I've come to consider it a badge of honor of sorts

and thank you:hi:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. LOL they are creative.

[azurnoir]

28. a reminder

any actual progressive checking out this site need to take a bar of soap with them it maks Freeperland look liberal

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=228404#228506

comment #34

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. The ugly side of I/P dialogue.

[burythehatchet]

43. Can you direct me to his site? I would love to check that shit out.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

27. fundamental racism?...no on the contrary....

my position is very clear: no matter how big, small, smart, dumb, occupied, occupier, some fundemenatals are constant, there is no double standard:

one is responsible for ones actions, be it the individual or the society ..and there are consequences for ones actions.....no one lives in a vacuum....and that is where our fundamental disagreement is.

The Palestinians, like the israelis, like the kurds, etc all deserve to live with the complete western civil rights package....getting there is not always easy and the paths are different for different groups...some many never get to own their own country based on their own genes, some will always be a minority and have no problem with it (jews in the us for example).

The Palestinians have a good chance at it.....they just have to learn how to get there on a practical level......I realize you dont like the history of the region, because when looking at it, it shows how once the Palestinians did in the past have far more civil rights, freedom of movement etc and now have far less...one doesnt have to look to far back to understand why..but it requires remembering the fundamental building block of how a liberal democracy works:

one is responsible for ones actions and there are consequences for those actions-until that fundamental aspect is understood by the Palestinians and their supporters i'm afraid the Palestinians lives are not going to get much better.

for example: shooting rockets at israeli cities will eventually get a reaction....its a dumb idea.

as far as the cease fire..you surprise me, i though you understood arabic: it was a Tadiya to use the words the hamas spokesman used....it just meant the shooting would be less on both sides (i assume i really dont have to list the various incidents....)

[azurnoir]

30. For example a country misles its "enemy"

with food shipments and radio announcements ect and then makes a sneak bombing attack killing nearly 300 people in minutes what consequences do those actions have? Or does tht depend on abilities of that countries online propagandists?

[pelsar]

31. whats the problem?....

Hamas declared the tediya period is over...and got bombed....

that is called the consequence for their action...is something confusing here? (maybe they should have continued the Tadiya....

israel has now received kassams and grads on its cities as a consequence for its actions....so.......

I think whats confusing you is that i'm using a the same standard for both ...no double standard

[azurnoir]

34. Oh no it is not at all confusing

really just testing the propaganda quality that's all and thanks we know you approve of dead Palestinians so how many is enough you never seem to answer that one is 100 to 1 good or not enough? I mean you have such an honorable single standard.

[pelsar]

36. actually i dont like any people dead.....

i do however differentiate between my personal views and that of a society.....i've never been asked what ratio is "good or not enough"....and since i have no idea what a "proportionate response is" (i've asked this question and have never received an answer....do you have one?) i dont have an answer........

i dont believe in counting the dead as some kind of "score card" since it does not represent either good or bad (to use the classic, the US killed more Japanese then were killed....)

a single standard is simply a way of working with different groups and giving each the same amount of respect that they deserve.....which helps them live in world as a western democracy...which is the best system by far.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. Too bad Israel never fulfilled its part of the agreement. How many times were the

borders opened, twice?


You occupy millions of Palestinians, deny basic human and political rights, you can expect to have your civil and social lives disrupted.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. How do you respond to Mustapha Barghouti, whom you probably know to be

the best hope for the future of Palestine... he reflects the views of the Intifidah I home-grown leadership...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x231856

[pelsar]

39. i dont know...

i have an inherent "lack of confidence" in any politician-i dont believe any of them (with a very few exceptions....)........at the sametime i believe its a standard in the middleeast that its the rightwingers that can actually make the moves for peace....sadat who launched the 73 war had the political capital to make peace..Rabin also had the political capital from the right to make oslo, sharon and only sharon could have left gaza.....

so with Barghouti?....i really dont know, but i have nothing against him either (hell arafat could have "changed" for all i know.....)..but then for that matter hamas mishel sounds intelligent ......though i think he too much into god to care of the Gazan in the street....

i know you like him.......eventually he'll get out and perhaps he'll have the political capital to change things.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. Mustapha, not Marwan.

[shaayecanaan]

54. Strange isnt it?

One thing the right wing types keep asking: where is the Palestinian Martin Luther King/Mahatma Gandhi? Mustafa Barghouti would appear to be that person - moderate, anti-violent. He was arrested by the Israelis and somehow his leg got broken. I suppose he fell over in the shower.

I expected to hear some sort of recognition from the Western press when he was released, but there was nothing. No one takes any notice of a Palestinian pacifist. Funny that our Israeli friend did not seem to know who he is. People watch the news to see guns and bombs and explosions, not some liberal protestor burning his bra. It doesnt rate.

The world forgot about the Palestinians from 1967 to 1987, notwithstanding that they were on their best behaviour. I suppose Hamas has figured out that this is what it takes to get the world's attention.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. Israel chose to sideline those leaders and begin secret communications with arafat

culminating in Madrid.

We'd have been much better off that the Unified Leadership of the Intifadah I stayed in power...

But then again, doesn't Israel always prefer to stir the pot? PLO too powerful in Gaza in the 80s? Support the formation of Hamas! Hamas giving you trouble in the mid-90's? Consecrete Fatah for life. Peskky little problem of free and fair elections? Just bring in the spoiler Mohammad Dahlan...

Never-ending.

[pelsar]

84. israels plans usually fail...

i dont know if you noticed but whatever they are...they usually dont seem to work out so well.....seems the Palestinians manage to put their "2 cents' into the dynamics and make a further mess of things....

i think you give way too much credit to israeli politicians and not enough to the Palestinians for the "screw up" awards...

[pelsar]

87. you assume too much...and perhaps know less...

Funny that our Israeli friend did not seem to know who he is.

[pelsar]

83. sorry wrong one....him i like....

i always have a preference for those trying to 'buck the system"-but he doesnt get that much press here (during the elections he did-lots of comparisons back then)......and his third way is probably the best the Palestinians have to offer for themselves.(israel is not relevant for his frst steps). I think hamas and fatah are polarized with way too much bad blood between them, thats going to last a very long time.


and if he would actually succeed, do some "internal fixing up,...change some of the internal dynamics within the society, i think he would be great. I really dont pay much attention to his calls for "non violence" as far as i recall it never included non violence against israelis, so i take his "non violent principle stand" with a "grain of salt"...but i think that is of less importance at this stage of the game. (actually irrelevant)

The PA remains corrupted and non trustworthy, hamas is a bunch of theocratic fanatics.....these are not good choices, neither have the interests of the Palestinians at heart as far as i can see.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

90. I think that Fatah no longer has a commitment

to the creation of a viable, independent Palestinian state.

I do think Hamas has that goal, even if I disagree with their tactics.

The bigger problem is that I don't believe Israel actually wants a partner for peace, and will do everything in their power to exploit the chaos for as long as humanly possible.

That certainly has been the strategy of the past 10 years.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. When does Israel end the bloodbath?

Clearly, Hamas is not backing down, the people are angrier than ever. Rockets continue to fly.

How will Israel know when it has won?

What are its goals? Clearly, they will not bring about regime change.

Will they continue the bloodbath until all the men are dead?

[azurnoir]

35. I predict Israel will take a break really it is never more than that

sometime before January 13 gotta give it at least a week to become "old news"

[THUNDER HANDS]

22. there are no actual relevant solutions

Israel is fighting a losing battle and they know it. In five or six generations there will be more arabs in Israel (in Israel, not the territories) than jews. In Gaza alone they average five kids per family. Its a demographic war as well as a military one.

The situation is only going to get worse.

People can talk all they want about how the Palestinians should just throw off Hamas and Hezbollah and accept a two state solution, but that's going to be impossible. There are countries surrounding it that want to see it destroyed, and they send in weapons for young Palestinians to use and then get blown up when Israel retaliates...but they know there's never going to be a shortage of people willing to fight Israel, and Israel can't kill off more Palestinians than are being born every year.

It's a simple numbers game that Israel can't win. So they'll become tougher and more restrictive and revert to an even more defensive posture, and the Palestinians will become even angrier and more assertive in their attacks over time.

And no amount of peace negotiations or blockades or bombings is going to change the fact that 100 years from now, Israel will look eerily similar to South Africa, except it'll be an extremely violent South Africa.

And there's no solution to that, short of some epic battle that wipes out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

[Vegasaurus]

25. The problem is far wider than Hamas

because it includes Islamic extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran and Somalia and Indonesia and Lebanon, and we could go on.

These extremists cannot be "stamped out", but they pose an enormous global threat because they are multiplying by the day.

[burythehatchet]

41. I think if we could develop a virus that just killed Muslims all our problems will be solved.

What a steaming turd you are.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

57. Its been tried.

The Sunday Times reported a few years ago that Israel was trying to develop an ethno-bomb, a virus that would target only Arabs. The guinea pigs were Jews of Iraqi descent, although I'm not sure why they didnt use regular Arabs.

The project was apparently shelved - it is very difficult to develop such a weapon as there really isnt any specific genetic "handle" that separates people of different races, religions etc.

[Shaktimaan]

58. you believe this?

Why would Israel want to wipe out the majority of its own population?

[eyl]

61. That report was idiotic

(and it's author was someone who has a rather dubious record for accuracy) and it would take a fool to consider it credible (or even possible, for that matter)

[shaayecanaan]

63. Clearly impossible...

whether the report itself was credible is another thing. I remember that Jewish groups immediately denounced the story as a blood libel and so forth. When no official denial was forthcoming they grew strangely quiet.

As far as I know, and despite the matter having been raised in the Knesset, the IDF has not admitted or denied that there was an attempt to develop an ethno-bomb.

[eyl]

81. What would be the point?

Given the preposterousnes of the charges, a denial would be either unbelieved or superflous. Besides, I don't think it would be the IDF involved in this kind of R&D in any case. Likewise, the voices defending Israel "fell silent" because there wasn't any follow-up, so to speak.

I should note that the author of this piece has a habit of reporting all sorts of things about Israel which don't pan out; accoridng to his predictions, for example, Israel should have already attacked Iran 5 or 6 times, I think.

[Vegasaurus]

72. Did I say "Muslims"?

No, I said Islamic extremists.

There is a difference, and don't make connections that aren't there.

All muslims are not Islamic extremists, so don't condemn the whole religion.

But you can condemn the virulent illness of terrorism and those Islamic jihadists who are intent on killing as many people as possible for not agreeing with their religious or political views (including other muslims).

[breakaleg]

40. So 300 dead is the alternative to a 15 second run.

[pelsar]

48. just say it clear....

or write it clear:

as i understand you believe its is better for 500,000 israelis to be subjected to random missile strikes than for the israel govt to attempt to physically stop the missiles.

its fine if you believe that...just dont be afraid to write it clearly...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. Just as you believe it's fine to continue to deny millions of Palestinians basic human and

political rights, because it inconveniences your countrymen... because your pols don't believe they have "earned" those rights... beucase your countrymen can't form a gov't without caving to the religious nuts... because there is an occupation machine that no one is able to shut down...

blah, blah, blah... the list of excuses for ongoing violent military subjugation is endless.

[pelsar]

85. its actually a very short list...

and its based on reality and its based on some basic ideals...but what i find fascinating here, i do not include you in this, as you have made you position clear, is that the "supporters" of the cause have trouble simply writing out in the same clarity, that was what the OP was about.

i dont care so much if they believe the bombing is out of proportion etc....i just would like to read in plain words their immediate solution for the residents of sederot.

if they believe, as you do, that is " tough shit" you deserve the kassams...then let them be clear about and stop playing some pseudo game of "caring for both sides equally"

perhaps they believe in this unfair world, that the kassams are the lesser evil, that too is ok, but at least they should write it out clearly so their stand will be clear....it just doesnt seem to happen does it....

they all write that "I put words in their mouth" as i attempt to put their positions into some kind of reality, they seem to disagree with that and yet, they will rarly if ever do it themselves.....what are they so afraid of? or why cant they ever write down the consequences for the actions or noactions that they believe in?

[breakaleg]

67. I did. My words came from your email and you just made shit up - as usual.

[pelsar]

74. i just write clearly..

you just seem to hint at it:

so heres another chance to write what you believe in plain english (is it so difficult? so frightening?)

to stop the kassams and grads flying out of gaza today, tonight, should israel do anything...and if not, explain why...

[HeraldSquare212]

44. That's a red herring, in my mind.

Taking the analysis back only to the last preceding act will always justify the reaction to that act. "Would you like missiles terrorizing your town?" Um, no. But I hope I would also not like my country from occupying and annexing the land of others and would do something to stop it.

[pelsar]

49. its not a red hearing if you live within missile range...

it does little to go back 5 year 10 years, 20 years etc....the problem exists daily..the question is what is the solution for tomorrow....what is your preference?

i would call the inability to answer that, while at the sametime be more than willing to criticize nothing more than a cop out....taking the easy way out without being willing to actually have the guts to make a stand..one way or another...

what should israel do today tomorrow if anything for the citizens now receiving random missiles? .......

i notice that you didnt answer.....so far no one has.......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. Wasn't it my hero Veggie who once asked "why don't they move?"

Oh.. that was the Pals in refugee camps.

[shira]

88. "no reply at all" - like the Phil Collins song

Pelsar's truth-to-power:

"i would call the inability to answer that, while at the sametime be more than willing to criticize nothing more than a cop out....taking the easy way out without being willing to actually have the guts to make a stand..one way or another..."


Absolutely dead-on correct. It's been 2 days. Not one single response that directly answers the OP.

We can only assume that all our very concerned Israel-critics here care less for Israeli Sderot citizens than they do Palestinians (they deserve to suffer and should "take it") and that Israel, unlike any other nation, should wait until Hamas rockets and bombs become more accurate and have farther reach until they hit daycares, hospitals, and grocery stores.....and at that point Israel should still do nothing but "take it". Any proportional response - and what is that by the way - should be such that no Palestinian is ever harmed, only Israelis.

And these "critics" wonder why they're not taken seriously by those not duped by the Hamas/PLO propaganda machine.

[shira]

89. and still no reply to the OP.....just defamation and demonization

:kick:

[shira]

91. hey Pelsar, at least Seth Freedman gets it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x235727

[shaayecanaan]

56. consequences?

Imagine this scenario in the 1980s - the Real IRA detonate a bomb in Piccadilly circus, killing forty civilians. In response, the British bomb the Republican strongholds in Belfast, killing scores of IRA operatives as well as numerous civilians, women and children. Then the British send in armoured vehicles and go door to door, arresting all the IRA men they find.

Now, imagine the headline of the Manchester Guardian the next day. Would "Massacre" be out of the question? I would think not.

There was a recent movie in the cinemas called "Bobby Sands". This was the tale of an IRA prisoner who went on hunger strike, not because he was being mistreated in prison, but because he, along with other IRA prisoners, was not accorded prisoner-of-war status. He ended up getting quite a bit of sympathetic press treatment when he died. I doubt very much whether Hamas prisoners in Israeli jails would get the same.

Israel's situation now is the same as the French in Algeria, the British in Northern Ireland, and to some extent the United States during the civil rights movement.

As has been pointed out by people on this board, Jews were amongst the most prominent critics of WASP racism during apartheid, segregation, etc. I suppose it must feel very noble to criticise from self-conceived sidelines, imagining oneself to be a mere passenger, although Jewish families in South Africa profited as much by racism as their WASP counterparts. I remember a speech Joe Lieberman gave about his days spent recruiting black voters in the South. "If not me, who? If not now, When? If not here, where?", he said. I nearly barfed all over my feet.

The WASPs have cleaned up their act in South Africa, Northern Ireland, etc. Israel, unfortunately, has not. It remains the last instance of a white minority attempting to impose its will on a non-white majority. There is no one else left to criticise, other than perhaps the American efforts in Iraq but whatever their faults the Americans do not seek to establish a colony in Iraq.

As such, the WASPs are having a great time at your expense. The most prominent critics of Israel in America are the elite WASP Anglican and Presbyterian churches. You can hardly fault them, if the positions were reversed Jews would be haranguing the WASPs with gusto.

Your problem is not that you recognise there are no easy solutions (there are not). Your problem is that you seem to think that Israel should be exempt from the kind of criticism that followed the British in Northern Ireland. You also seem to think that the only reason Israel receives this kind of criticism is anti-semitism, although, if anything, you probably get a bit more mileage out of being Jews rather than WASPs.

There are no easy solutions. And yes, if you keep bombing the Palestinians you will be criticised, and rightly so. If you don't like it, that's just tough.

[Shaktimaan]

59. can you explain this better?

Israel, unfortunately, has not. It remains the last instance of a white minority attempting to impose its will on a non-white majority.

Who do you see as the white minority and who as the non-white majority? Are we talking about the whole middle east, just Israel, Palestine, where? I'm really confused as to who you see as the controlling white minority in this situation.

As for the IRA bomb, it was only a single bomb, correct? Or at most a few bombs. It didn't take nearly 10,000 rockets and mortars constantly raining down before the British finally responded, did it? How do you think the British would have reacted differently to thousands of rockets and mortars? Would Bobby Sands have still received the same press sympathy as when he had used a single bomb?

[shaayecanaan]

62. Happy to...

Israel would be the white party, obviously. While obviously there are people of many different descents by and large its leadership and dominant political class is almost exclusively white.

The non-white majority are the Palestinians, who constitute a majority of the population of Israel within its presently demarcated borders.

As for the Troubles, total British loyalist losses were about 2300, including Protestant civilians, RUC, and British Army deaths. 700 British Armymen died. By contrast, about 300 IRA men died. Yes, thats right, British Army losses were more than double that of the IRA.

By comparison, about 1000 Israelis have died during the course of both intifadas, a period of twenty years. About 5500 Palestinians have died.

By and large, the British arrested and imprisoned Republican partisans, even those with blood on their hands, rather than simply shooting them. Extra-judicial executions were documented but were rare. Overall, the British followed the rule of law and proper judicial procedures even at the risk of injury and death to its own troops.

As for the IRA bomb, it was only a single bomb, correct?

Hundreds of shootings, bombings, and kneecappings over a period of thirty years. Countless small-arm incidents mainly with Armalite automatic weapons. Stinger missiles fired at British aircraft. A successful attempt on the life of Lord Mountbatten and unsuccessful attempts on the lives of Margaret Thatcher, and members of the royal family, using remote-detonated bombs.

And yet the British were still criticised, particularly for the deaths of 14 people on Bloody Sunday in 1972.

When did Israel ever receive criticism for shooting dead 13 of its own Arab citizens in October 2000? I dont ever remember U2 writing a song about them...

[Recursion]

64. Oh come on! It's not this or nothing

It's not like there are no options between doing nothing and dismantling Hamas brick by brick (oh, and taking a few thousand civilians with them in the process).

[Vegasaurus]

65. Why don't you enlighten us as to what Israel might do

since it seems they have done everything, from giving up land, giving money and weapons, providing greenhouses.

Rockets intensified.

Then they tried sonic booms, targetted kidnappings, and closing borders.

That didn't work to stop the rockets either.

Have any other bright ideas, Einstein?

[Recursion]

66. They could have accept Hamas's offer

Hamas offered to extend the truce in return for ending the blockade; Israel chose to pre-emptively break it as it expired instead by blowing up the tunnel. That would have been a place to start.

[Vegasaurus]

68. There never was a real "truce"

there were still rockets (just not as many)
and it gave the Hamas a chance to smuggle in bigger and more dangerous rockets.

Hamas has never wanted peace, so there is nothing to negotiate with.

[azurnoir]

69. Is your claim that Israel wanted peace? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

70. During the truce?

I think that they just want the rockets to stop.

That is step one.

[stranger81]

73. what Israel wants is a cost-free occupation . . . . .

a means by which to subjugate millions of people it deems less than human with no cost to itself. And that just isn't going to happen. Actions have consequences.

[pelsar]

76. your right...actions do have consequences...

and shooting kassams and grads and mortars also have consequences.....

its a shame Hamas and friends feel that israelis and jews are less than human....but thats nothing new to their history....

[stranger81]

77. sure -- in this case, wildly disproportionate consequences.

I just can't picture Israel as the victim here, with one dead in a year from Qassam rockets and over four hundred dead on the other side in a weekend's excursion. Sure, it looks like one side considers the other less than human, but in exactly the opposite way from that which you propose.

[pelsar]

86. so because israel protects it citizens...

that means kassams dont "count"....with the sophisticated radars for warnings the anti kassams bus stops, the concrete walls in the play areas around sederot....all of these help lesson the damage...and because israel has in fact succeeded in that respect we can now take the position that the 4-5000 kassams are simply not that consequential....

i mean shooting at cities randomly?...., who would support either directly or indirectly such a thing (no condemnations, no action to stop it...) can hardly consider the inhabitants of those cities equally human....

[Vegasaurus]

78. Gaza isn't occupied

and yet they have fired 6000 rockets since 2000, with longer range and more capacity to kill.

I suppose Israel should just sit and let them fall on their heads, kill their children, etc.

They should not have any response, correct?

(since no other response has worked anyway)

[stranger81]

79. No, Gaza isn't occupied. That's why no one can enter or exit without

Israeli permission, why no humanitarian supplies or aid can get through, why the airpace is controlled by Israel, why the ports are blocked by Israel . . . . .

Seriously, the mental gymnastics it must take to believe the kind of stuff you apparently do is stunning.

[pelsar]

75. is history so difficult?

there was not truce it was a tedya...a calming period...after that hamas declared it over.....israel then attacked

pehaps explain why hamas declared it over?..and what were there intentions ....as if you know?...and why should israel accept the "occasional kassam?

and please list the immediate options to stop the kassams available to israel...that the residents of sederot might appreciate.....or do you believe they should simple accept the kassams?

[eyl]

Was that why

they intensified the rocket attacks last week?

[eyl]

82. Was that why

they intensified the rocket attacks last week?