Israelis look for knockout blow

[Fozzledick]

By Jeremy Bowen
BBC Middle East editor

Israel has laid out an ambitious war aim. It says it wants to create a new security environment, to protect Israelis who live within range of rocket fire from Gaza.

It wants, according to one official, "to neutralise the Hamas militia men" so they can no longer fire into Israel.

In the last day, the way Israel believes it can do that has become a little clearer.

The air strikes have tried to kill as many Hamas fighters as possible and to destroy the infrastructure of power and governance that Hamas has been trying to build since it took over in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802477.stm

[MUAD_DIB]

1. All Israel is doing is creating the grounds for more

enlistment and support for Hamas.

[annabanana]

2. It doesn't work like that.. Ideas are indestructable.

When you kill people while fighting ideas, all you get is more people to fight. Haven't we learned that yet?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. The ideas of a freedom and respect for the Palestinians will be better off without Hamas

Hamas is not an idea, its a fascist organization with some religious coverage

[IndianaGreen]

7. As are the settlers

two sides of the same coin.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza.

Israel forcibly removed them as the left. There is no indication that the current government will allow any new settlements. Admittedly that could change with the elections.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. There most certainly are in the West Bank, and that's Palestinian....

And in the West Bank, Israel nurtures those settlers and has no intention of removing any of them for the foreseeable future...

[IndianaGreen]

10. Here's to you VC

Here is tonight's Rachel Maddow show on the Gaza genocide

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28427276

Interesting comment by Richard Engel about a portion of Baker-Hamilton Report (Iraq Study Group) that proposes an out-of-the-box strategy to resolve the I/P conflict.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Thanks for the link, Indy...

My connection's a bit iffy right now so I'll watch it later on tonight. Also, what's happening in Gaza is totally horrific and unjustifiable, but it's not a genocide...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Indeed there are. I was commenting in a Gaza context

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Then shouldn't you have said Gazans rather than Palestinians?

Gaza doesn't exist in a vacuum, and what happens in Gaza affects Palestinians in the West Bank and visa-versa. So what Indy pointed out about the settlers is spot on. The extremist settlers really are the mirror image of the likes of Hamas and the world would be better off without both bunches....

[AnOhioan]

3. Yeah, that really worked for them in Lebanon too huh?

Now Hezbollah is stronger than ever. Hamas will become stronger as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. They may well be successful

PA is waiting in the wings to regain control of Gaza. If that happens, a key Israeli goal, the removal of Hamas, will have been accomplished. That does not mean that the PA will not continue the struggle for freedom, just that they won't be shelling their neighbors while demanding things from them.

[ConsAreLiars]

12. The utterly nasty irony in all this is that Israel empowered Hamas

by its undermining of Fatah's credibility and ability to deliver for the Palestinians.

edit to add:

This, of course, was the intended outcome, since Fatah was gaining international legitimacy and support for the expansionist aims of the Israeli right was being undermined. Hamas, being based in religious insanity, like the Israeli expansionists, was easier to demonize. The usual combination of ignorance and bigotry within the US and the corporate media's interest in using Israel as imperialist asset made it easier to thereby demonize the Palestinian people, and thus justify murdering them.

edit again to provide a link to that bit of this history: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

[azurnoir]

15. Are you so sure?

the PA will not continue the struggle for freedom, just that they won't be shelling their neighbors while demanding things from them.

The PA or PNA as it is known is an umbrella organization for many different parties the list includes these

* Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
* Fatah or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
* Hamas or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
* Palestine Democratic Union (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
* Palestine Forum launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri, 73
* Palestinian National Initiative (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
* Palestinian People's Party (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
* Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
* Al-Mustaqbal or The Future
* Third Way (centrist)
* Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (left-wing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_Palestinian_National_Authority

the list includes a few "familiar" names

edited to add I have no idea where the smilies came from or how to get rid of them

[IndianaGreen]

6. The psychos in Jerusalem said the same thing when they attacked Lebanon

Great victory, wasn't it?