Tanks Deployed at Gaza Barrier; Barak: War to the Death

[tekisui]

Source: Israel National News

(IsraelNN.com) The IDF positioned hundreds of tanks along the Gaza separation barrier Monday as the Air Force resumed aerial attacks on terrorist targets throughout Gaza. Israeli gunboats fired several missiles towards the Gaza coast. Arab sources said that several people were killed or wounded, including several terrorists who were hiding in mosques.

The IDF also declared the area near Gaza Belt communities a closed military zone, leading to speculation that a ground invasion is near. Israel ordered journalists out of areas abutting the Gaza Strip border on Monday, citing the risk of terrorist rocket fire, but the move also keeps the media from reporting on troop movements.

The IDF issued emergency "Tzav 8" orders to 7,000 reservists to be prepared for an immediate call-up. The government and military have tried to refrain from a ground invasion into Gaza, which is booby-trapped with hundreds of Hizbullah-like underground bunkers that foiled the IDF in the Second Lebanon War two years ago.

Shmuel Bar, director of studies at the Institute for Policy and Planning at the Herzliya Interdisciplinary Center in Israel, told Bloomberg News, "It is clear to everyone that there is no way to end this without some sort of ground offensive."

(snip)

He(Barak) told a special Knesset meeting Monday, "We have nothing against the people of Gaza, but we are in a war to the death with Hamas. We are engaged in an all-out war against Hamas and its proxies."

more: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129088

[Christa]

1. They are using Hamas as an excuse

to kill all the Palestinians.

[Vegasaurus]

6. Then they are doing a damn crappy job

Israel could have flattened the territories and killed every single Palestinian within the first hours, as they could have millions of times in the past decades.

But they haven't, and are targetting militant Islam's headquarters in Gaza.

[The Stranger]

16. Oh bullshit. Blockading food and medicine is genocide. But it takes time.

They have flattened the territories slowly and methodically, "settling" them a bit at a time, meanwhile "negotiating" some sort of lie about peace.

[sabbat hunter]

18. gee last time i checked

Israel let in humanitarian aid late last week, that Gaza has a border with Egypt that, despite what people like to claim, Israel does not control.

how exactly are they committing genocide?

[The Stranger]

31. Fucking please -- they let in food and medicine for a few hours after months of genocidal blockade.

Is that all you got?

[Pavulon]

35. You need a body count to go with genocide

produce one or back off that BULLSHIT.

[sabbat hunter]

36. Bullshit

During all that time goods could have easily come in from the border with Egypt.

[oberliner]

19. There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza nt

[The Stranger]

32. Israel's systematic oppression of the Palestinians has never been limited to Gaza. n/t

[Pavulon]

20. Google dresden

then us bombing tokyo. We did that in 45 with conventional weapons which israel has in its arsenal.

Let me know when they burn gaza down. Until then, it is a standard skirmish.

[The Stranger]

33. A "standard skirmish."

And let you know when "they burn gaza down"?

(Did I accidentally log on to Free Republic?)

[Pavulon]

34. DPRC is a catastrophe

this is a land skirmish. Point is Israel aims, hamas shoots blind into major cities.

Blind support of hamas is not a Democratic position.

[The Stranger]

41. Israel aims at civilian neighborhoods and at children.

Blind support of terrorism -- even Israeli terrorism -- is not a Democratic position.

[Vegasaurus]

43. Israel has a right to protect itlsef

How much mayhem and how much terrorism is Hamas allowed to cause before Israel is allowed a military response?

It already tried non-militaristic means and people still went nuts.

It isn't progressive or democratic to support terrorists who want to annihilate a sovereign nation.

Especially those that repress and oppress their people.

Progressives are supposed to be opposed to "governments" that treat their people so badly.

Except when it comes to Arabs, since apparently their poor human rights records are excused.

[Pavulon]

44. Israel AIMS, point 1. If their aim was to stack bodies

there would be more than 300 dead. period, end of fucking story. One BOMB could kill more than that if the aim was to stack bodies.

Hamas does not aim.

[sabbat hunter]

17. please provide

proof that the Israelis are trying to kill all the Palestinians.\

[sixmile]

2. Question-

How do you spot a 'Hamas?' Is it a man? How old? In uniforms?
Are they targeting the Hamas tanks? Air force? Navy?
I've got a feeling anything that moves may qualify.

[tekisui]

3. If it's dead, it's Hamas?

:shrug:

As Hamas is the elected 'power' in Gaza, it seems they are integrated everywhere. Israel bombed a University, and have hit every security building in Gaza. They have bombed 40 tunnels connecting Egypt. I guess public works facilities, schools and hospitals are fair game too?

[sixmile]

5. So if they were targeting, say, Democrats

how would you differentiate? Bumper stickers? Hairstyles?

[tekisui]

7. I have no idea.

That points to the ridiculousness of war. Bombing 'targets' and killing civilians. It is wrong. No two ways about it.

[subsuelo]

11. Nobody's paying attention anyway

Just kill 'em all and say it was Hamas. That's the Israeli way

[Statistical]

27. Take that solar panel off your roof or you may attrack a smart bomb (n/t)

[Moochy]

30. Red State vs Blue State

A county-by-county approach might work too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. There are claims, supported in the Palestinian media, that Israeli limited its air strikes to

Hamas facilities.
- Per an article from the UK, the university bldg hit was a location that
did weapons research for Hamas. Weapons and components were stored there as well
- The tunnels were used for smuggling, and were not public works. They were the
conduits through which the rockets and components came into Gaza.
- I have not seen any claims of a hospital being targeted or hit
- I have seen a few things about a mosque being targeted, but nothing really definitive or multi-sourced at this time.
There is so much emotion and hyperbole out there, that its hard to tell good data from bad. For now I am checking multiple sites with different seminal sources before holding out things as facts.

As for them being the elected power in Gaza consider the following:
- Hamas did not win the popular vote and its recent poll numbers were Bush like.
- Hamas was refusing to participate in an election with the West Bank for new Palestinian leadership.
- After they took over Gaza, Hamas purged (Stalin style) all the Gaza PA members or others who might resist them.
Don't confuse Hamas with the good guys (are there any good guys in the ME?)

[tekisui]

48. Thanks for the info.

When you see good guys in the ME that have any kind of power, let me know. It is a tragic mess.

[Kurska]

40. The university was the major explosives lab of hamas

Fatah targeted it aswell when they were fighting hamas

[tekisui]

49. I remember that now.

Thanks.

[azurnoir]

9. I read yesterday in some Israeli online

that any Gazan who is deemed as "helping" Hamas is fair game and no longer a civilian.

[bunnies]

4. In a war to "The Death"...

fucking hell. This just keeps getting better and better. How many people need to be wiped off the map before anyone in the middle east is satisfied?

[StudsT]

8. tanks, jets and fully equipped soldiers coming to a neighborhood near you

what do you do? :shrug:

and so it goes...

StudsT

[Pavulon]

21. Stop shooting unguided rockets?

at women and kids. Swear to blow up people eating dinner and shopping (no shit they did)?

Personally I would pick up a fucking rifle, which every one of these assholes is quick to mag dump in front of reuters and fight like a man.

Infantry tactics work. If these jerks used them they would not be terrorists and the world would begin funding them again.

[StudsT]

42. i think the more they are oppressed and bombed the more they will fight back

FYI: war is terror

StudsT

[Pavulon]

46. Maybe with a rifle and grenades? Aimed fire.

that is how soldiers fight and kill. IEDs are military attack on US personnel, the are a military target. Not terrorism, not condoning. Blowing bombs up in markets is terrorism, basic murder.

Surely you can tell the difference.

Hamas men could pick up an ak and some grenades, some explosives and fight like men. Instead they shoot rockets at cities and kill randomly.

[StudsT]

47. ah, may i reminded you that with all the Israeli 'aimed' fire they manage to kill way more civilians

so your point is moot.

FYI: War is Terror

StudsT

[Pavulon]

50. Hamas ONLY kills civilians. 100%

because they do not aim, they could but do not.. Israel kills them by accident while aiming for hamas. If their goal was to kill civilians they would aim for them and kill many more than 22 of 300+. Considering an enemy uses them for cover and their death as photo ops.

Valid as it gets.

[StudsT]

53. War is Terror.

Valid as it gets.

StudsT

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Until two things happend

1) They run out of ordnance/food/water
2) They realize that they are being used as disposable tools and proxies by the Arab and Muslim nations, and quit shooting at Israel.

[bemildred]

10. Well, his political death, anyway.

The rest remains to be seen. I'm sure many are impressed by his lack of animosity towards the people of Gaza.

[oberliner]

12. This article is from a very far-right source

I would consider their inflammatory headline accordingly.

[tekisui]

13. It is a direct quote from Barak.

I could put (with Hamas) in parenthesis. I didn't read anything in the article that has not been confirmed.

[oberliner]

15. Only this far-right source translates Barak's remarks that way.

Here are some other versions:

We have nothing against the people of Gaza," Ehud Barak said to a special session of parliament. "But this is an all-out war against Hamas and its branches.

Speaking in Monday morning's special Knesset session on the war, Barak said, "We have nothing against Gaza residents but we are engaged in an all-out war against Hamas and its proxies."

"We have stretched our hand in peace many times to the Palestinian people. We have nothing against the people of Gaza," Defense Minister Ehud Barak said. "But this is an all-out war against Hamas and its branches."

Edit to add link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/29/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html

[Statistical]

28. Interesting example of how "news" isn't alwasy "news" (n/t)

[tekisui]

39. Thanks, I will keep that in mind as I come across articles from INN.

[azurnoir]

14. jpost and Ha'aretz word it differently

the op was a "translation error" maybe?

Barak added that the IDF was targeting Hamas leadership and its allies in Gaza, asserting that the operation would be a "war to the bitter end."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456512919&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
This is from yesterday

No ceasefire with Hamas: Barak

WASHINGTON, Dec 27 (Reuters) - Israel "cannot really accept" a ceasefire with Hamas, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said in a U.S. television interview on Saturday, rejecting calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a truce after Israeli air strikes killed 227 people in Gaza.

"For us to be asked to have a ceasefire with Hamas is like asking you to have a ceasefire with al Qaeda. It's something we cannot really accept," Barak told Fox News from Tel Aviv.
Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak speaks during a press conference in his office in Tel Aviv on December 27, 2008.
Asked whether Israel would follow up the air strikes with a ground offensive, Barak said, "If boots on the ground will be needed, they will be there."

"Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," he said.


http://www.chtv.com/ch/chchnews/story.html?id=1118902

[HeraldSquare212]

22. New complication: Canaanites threaten to intervene, retake their ancestral lands.

[rundownman]

23. Don't you get it? Canaanites aren't the Master Race.

[LeftishBrit]

24. There is no Master Race there

Or anyone who thinks there is.

Just different groups fighting mainly over land, and also sometimes religion and longstanding enmities.

[rundownman]

26. I beg to differ....

If you talk to some of the israeli's especially the extremist elemets of israeli society they will straight up tell you who the master race is.

Hint: its not the arabs or any other goy for that matter.

[sabbat hunter]

37. You will find just as many

if not more extremist elements in Arab countries, who the master race is. Hint they aren't jewish or christians.

[Shaktimaan]

51. ah, I see.

So now the Jewish people are actually a "race?" Interesting.

But then you seem to think that "Arab" is also a race so there's no accounting for education.

If you talk to some of the israeli's especially the extremist elemets of israeli society they will straight up tell you who the master race is.

Hahaha. Like you've ever spoken to an Israeli. Lol! Admit it... You never leave your basement.

[LeftishBrit]

25. IsraelNationalNews is a very unreliable source

Religious-Right, and often describe things in a very inflammatory way.

They might well favour the idea of 'war to the death'. That doesn't mean that others do, or that there will be one.

[tekisui]

29. Thanks, I wasn't familiar.

[EFerrari]

45. Thanks for the heads up on this outlet. DW is reporting "all out war":

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/function/0,,12215_cid_3909191,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf