Cabinet okays IDF response to massive Gaza rocket barrage

[IndianaGreen]

Cabinet okays IDF response to massive Gaza rocket barrage

The defense establishment is currently preparing for a military move against Hamas targets in Gaza, after the Islamist group launched more than 80 rockets into Israel on Wednesday.

As an initial retaliatory measure, an Israel Air Force strike killed a Hamas gunman in the southern Gaza Strip on Wednesday. Israel's response will go beyond the air raid, an Israeli official told Haaretz.

"Our response will be substantial and painful to Hamas," the official said.

By late morning Wednesday, the Magen David Adom rescue service declared its highest level of alert.

One of the rockets exploded next to a children's playground in the southern town of Netivot and a mortar shell scored a direct hit on a house in Kibbutz Sha'ar Hanegev, causing extensive damage. A house in the community of Sdot Negev was also severely damaged after it absorbed a direct rocket hit.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1049820.html

[Lithos]

1. *sigh*

L-

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

3. Are we even vaguely surprised? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

4. No, and what would you expect Israel to do?

Continue to allow thousands of its citizens to be terrorized on a daily basis?

Sane governments protect their citizens.

The IDF is doing exactly the right thing.

If Hamas wanted to protect its citizens, to do the best it could for their welfare, it would immediately halt all violent activity toward Israel.

But Hamas has never once cared at all about their citizens, the average innocent Palestinian.

So, unfortunately, they will get what they deserve.

I hope innocents are spared, but that militants are captured and/or killed.

[azurnoir]

5. Crying crocodile ?

Remembered the Hamas cover this time, I see, but yesterday you were a bit more honest

Vegasaurus (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-24-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Which will be bloodier and more miserable for the Palestinians

which is why their violent resistance has never improved their lives.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=228322&mesg_id=228353

[Vegasaurus]

6. The majority of Palestinians support violent resistance

There is no "cover".

Hamas is a violent terrorist organization masquerading as a government, but they are well supported by people who also believe that violence is preferable to leading a good life.


THe poor pathetic innocent minority has to live with violent radicals which is unfortunate.

[azurnoir]

8. Do they now

so that would in your mind make most Palestinian s terrorists?

[LeftishBrit]

9. According to a recent poll, the majority don't support Hamas

http://www.icej.org/article/palestinian_poll_shows_fatah_would_beat_hamas_in_elections

Yes, they voted Hamas in; but the Americans voted Bush in, after all. There seems to be plenty of 'buyers' remorse' in both cases.

As regards support for violent resistance, and for various peace initiatives, there seem to be massive fluctuations with time, with the exact questions asked, and possibly with the sampling. But one tends overall to get the same near-50:50 balance between relative hawks and relative doves as seems to be the case in Israel (and often elsewhere). The April survey that showed over 60% in favour of violent resistance was an exception or a blip: most polls before and since have shown a far more even balance .

Thus, with the Palestinians - and with the Israelis - it is oversimplified to think of them either as 'all committed to peace' (in which case nothing would need to be changed) or 'all supporters of violence' (in which case nothing could be changed). There is a close balance, which can depend on and be influenced by all kinds of factors. And, as in many conflicts, right-wing hawkishness on either side tends to increase right-wing hawkishness on the other.

[oberliner]

10. The December survey

That survey shows about a 50/50 split among Palestinians regarding armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel (48 percent support, 49 percent oppose).

Support for armed attacks against Israelis increase in the Gaza Strip (60%) compared to the West Bank (41%).

Among Hamas voters/supporters, the number is 74 percent who support such attacks.

[shira]

11. yes, but remember it's hateful citing actual statistics

who are the hatemongers who would actually support on such a thing?

[azurnoir]

17. Oberliner provides no link for his conflicting stats

are they even from the same poll? It is also hateful to willfully misrepresent stats or facts is it not?

[oberliner]

18. They aren't conflicting stats

They are the same stats from the same poll, with more details included.

Edit to Add: Do you really think I just made up those statistics?

[azurnoir]

21. I was hoping not n/t

[LeftishBrit]

24. Here's a link to the survey I think he 's referring to..

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2008/p30e.html

If the stats seem 'conflicting', it is because people's views are often not clear-cut, and depend on the exact context and exact question asked. This is an important factor in itself, because it means that seemingly small issues can shift the balance between war and peace; right and left.

And I don't see how it is 'hateful' to say that Palestinians, or Israelis, or Americans, are rather closely divided between hawks and doves, or that the same individuals may teeter between hawkishness and dovishness, depending on the exact circumstances. It's a common fact of life and politics, which needs to be taken into account when working toward peace.

[Vegasaurus]

12. So, the majority, as I said

support Hamas and their violence and terrorism.

Therefore, they can't whine and complain that their lives are miserable, since they support the evil government that has made their lives that way.

I say up with the wall.

[oberliner]

13. They can support armed attacks and not support Hamas

The survey indicates that Fatah has more support Hamas.

Don't forget that Fatah has its share of supporters of violence against Israeli civilians as well.

[Vegasaurus]

14. Fatah is evil too

They just pretend better.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Yr wrong yet again. The majority do NOT support Hamas...

An easy fact to glean if you'd bothered to read what was linked to. Do you need the figures spoon-fed to you in huge bolded font or are you just going to ignore facts?

Did you not even bother reading LB's post? Will you be saying 'Therefore, they can't whine and complain that their lives are miserable, since they support the evil government that has made their lives that way.' if Israelis elect Nutty and the violence increases and say for example suicide-bombings become a common thing again? Of course you won't, because you have clear double standards when it comes to Israelis and Palestinians....

[azurnoir]

16. Goshcould you provide a link to the poll your citing

because LB's says nothing about violent attacks and the Fatah/Hamas split is a bit more than 50/50 more like 42% for Fatah and 28% for Hamas

The poll in its entirety

The secular Fatah faction headed by Mahmous Abbas would beat the radical Islamic movement Hamas in Palestinians elections, according to a new opinion poll published Thursday.

Fatah would draw 42 percent of the vote if elections were held now, as opposed to 28 percent for Hamas. Support for Hamas has nevertheless stabilized after months of decline, the poll indicated.

The poll also found out that nearly two-thirds (64%) of Palestinians believe that Abbas' term as head of the Palestinian Authority should end on January 9, as Hamas demands, and a larger number demand holding early presidential and legislative elections, as Abbas wants, if internal Palestinian reconciliation talks fail.

Abbas' popularity as president declined from 53 percent three months ago to 48 per cent in the new poll. Hamas' candidate for president, its current leader Ismail Haniyeh, received 38 percent support in the new poll. The popularity of jailed Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti remains highest at 59 percent.

Meanwhile, 74 percent of respondents support the renewal of the Gaza ceasefire between Hamas and Israel. The cease-fire is due to expire late next week.

LB also cited these stats from last April or right after "Operation Hot Winter"

The April survey that showed over 60% in favour of violent resistance was an exception or a blip: most polls before and since have shown a far more even balance .

[oberliner]

19. The 50/50 split has nothing to do with Hamas/Fatah

It is the split between those who do and do not support armed attacks against Israeli civilians.

There was a poll in March that had 64 percent of Palestinians supporting the rocket attacks. It was taken right after the Yeshiva attack, which 84 percent of Palestinians surveyed said they supported. That is probably the "blip" to which LeftishBrit was referring.

The December poll that this article is talking about has the number who support armed attacks against Israeli civilians at 48 percent.

All the polls are here: http://www.pcpsr.org

[azurnoir]

20. the stats were about 48/48

however two intersting stats you did not note

question #4 concerning support for the peace process which was 68% ansd question #30 support for thr the recognition of Israel at the end of negotiations which was about 48% also

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2008/p30e.html

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Thanks for pointing out those other stats....

Here's another one

Three quarters (74%) support renewal of the ceasefire agreement in the Gaza Strip while 23% oppose the renewal.

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2008/p30e.html#head2

[oberliner]

23. That is a very interesting stat

74 percent support renewal of the ceasefire agreement, while
48 percent support armed attacks against Israelis

That would mean that there are a fair number of Palestinians who support the renewal of the ceasefire agreement and also support armed attacks against Israelis.

How do you reconcile those two findings?

[shira]

25. also, check near the end 41-2, 41-3 and 41-4

based on what may very well look like final negotiations and permanent compromise

72.5 percent against having a state without an army but with int'l forces instead

63.3 percent of Palestinians against E.Jerusalem as Palestinian capital.

58 percent against proposed Palestinian refugee solution.

[Alamuti Lotus]

7. Any move in the south (Gaza)...

will be followed with moves from the north. They must consider the two-front (three?) consequences to follow any aggression here.