If Gaza falls...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Sara Roy


Israel’s siege of Gaza began on 5 November, the day after an Israeli attack inside the strip, no doubt designed finally to undermine the truce between Israel and Hamas established last June. Although both sides had violated the agreement before, this incursion was on a different scale. Hamas responded by firing rockets into Israel and the violence has not abated since then. Israel’s siege has two fundamental goals. One is to ensure that the Palestinians there are seen merely as a humanitarian problem, beggars who have no political identity and therefore can have no political claims. The second is to foist Gaza onto Egypt. That is why the Israelis tolerate the hundreds of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt around which an informal but increasingly regulated commercial sector has begun to form. The overwhelming majority of Gazans are impoverished and officially 49.1 per cent are unemployed. In fact the prospect of steady employment is rapidly disappearing for the majority of the population.

On 5 November the Israeli government sealed all the ways into and out of Gaza. Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005. The two main food providers in Gaza are the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and the World Food Programme (WFP). UNRWA alone feeds approximately 750,000 people in Gaza, and requires 15 trucks of food daily to do so. Between 5 November and 30 November, only 23 trucks arrived, around 6 per cent of the total needed; during the week of 30 November it received 12 trucks, or 11 per cent of what was required. There were three days in November when UNRWA ran out of food, with the result that on each of these days 20,000 people were unable to receive their scheduled supply. According to John Ging, the director of UNRWA in Gaza, most of the people who get food aid are entirely dependent on it. On 18 December UNRWA suspended all food distribution for both emergency and regular programmes because of the blockade.

The WFP has had similar problems, sending only 35 trucks out of the 190 it had scheduled to cover Gazans’ needs until the start of February (six more were allowed in between 30 November and 6 December). Not only that: the WFP has to pay to store food that isn’t being sent to Gaza. This cost $215,000 in November alone. If the siege continues, the WFP will have to pay an extra $150,000 for storage in December, money that will be used not to support Palestinians but to benefit Israeli business.

The majority of commercial bakeries in Gaza – 30 out of 47 – have had to close because they have run out of cooking gas. People are using any fuel they can find to cook with. As the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) has made clear, cooking-gas canisters are necessary for generating the warmth to incubate broiler chicks. Shortages of gas and animal feed have forced commercial producers to smother hundreds of thousands of chicks. By April, according to the FAO, there will be no poultry there at all: 70 per cent of Gazans rely on chicken as a major source of protein.

Banks, suffering from Israeli restrictions on the transfer of banknotes into the territory were forced to close on 4 December. A sign on the door of one read: ‘Due to the decision of the Palestinian Finance Authority, the bank will be closed today Thursday, 4.12.2008, because of the unavailability of cash money, and the bank will be reopened once the cash money is available.’

The World Bank has warned that Gaza’s banking system could collapse if these restrictions continue. All cash for work programmes has been stopped and on 19 November UNRWA suspended its cash assistance programme to the most needy. It also ceased production of textbooks because there is no paper, ink or glue in Gaza. This will affect 200,000 students returning to school in the new year. On 11 December, the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, sent $25 million following an appeal from the Palestinian prime minister, Salaam Fayad, the first infusion of its kind since October. It won’t even cover a month’s salary for Gaza’s 77,000 civil servants....

read on...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/roy_01_.html

[Ian David]

1. I didn't realize that Gaza had a banking system. Who will bail-out their big three rocket companies?

[henank]

2. She's being rather economical with the truth

"5 November, the day after an Israeli attack inside the strip, no doubt designed finally to undermine the truce between Israel and Hamas"

Uhuh, yeah, right. Of course Israel would have no other reason to impose a blockade. Of course the poor innocent Gazans have done absolutely nothing to break the ceasefire. What's that you say? Rockets? What rockets?

Gaza truce in jeopardy after Hamas-Israeli clashes

Published: November 5, 2008: Hamas militants pounded southern Israel with a barrage of rockets Wednesday, hours after Israeli soldiers killed six gunmen in new violence that threatened a five-month-old truce that has brought relief to both Gaza and southern Israel.

The clashes began late Tuesday after Israeli forces burst into Gaza to destroy what the army said was a tunnel being dug near the border to kidnap Israeli troops.

Rockets fired after Gaza clashes

Hamas has fired multiple rockets into Israel hours after six fighters died during Israel's first major incursion into the Gaza Strip since June's truce.

Israel said 35 rockets and mortars were fired, but gave no word on casualties.

[azurnoir]

4. Perhaps the Israeli government

has more than a blockade on its mind or wishlist?

[bemildred]

3. ‘A Dubai on the Mediterranean’

A blast from the past.

Last April President Bush said that Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza would allow the establishment of ‘a democratic state in the Gaza’ and open the door for democracy in the Middle East. The columnist Thomas Friedman was more explicit, arguing that ‘the issue for Palestinians is no longer about how they resist the Israeli occupation in Gaza, but whether they build a decent mini-state there – a Dubai on the Mediterranean. Because if they do, it will fundamentally reshape the Israeli debate about whether the Palestinians can be handed most of the West Bank.’

Embedded in these statements is the assumption that Palestinians will be free to build their own democracy, that Israel will eventually cede the West Bank (or at least consider the possibility), that Israel’s ‘withdrawal’ will strengthen the Palestinian position in negotiations over the West Bank, that the occupation will end or become increasingly irrelevant, that the gross asymmetries between the two sides will be redressed. Hence, the Gaza Disengagement Plan – if implemented ‘properly’ – provides a real (perhaps the only) opportunity for resolving the conflict and creating a Palestinian state. It follows that Palestinians will be responsible for the success or failure of the Plan: if they fail to build a ‘democratic’ or ‘decent mini-state’ in Gaza, the fault will be theirs alone.

Today, there are more than 1.4 million Palestinians living in the Strip: by 2010 the figure will be close to two million. Gaza has the highest birth-rate in the region – 5.5 to 6.0 children per woman – and the population grows by 3 to 5 per cent annually. Eighty per cent of the population is under 50; 50 per cent is 15 years old or younger; and access to healthcare and education is rapidly declining. The half of the territory in which the population is concentrated has one of the highest densities in the world. In the Jabalya refugee camp alone, there are 74,000 people per square kilometre, compared with 25,000 in Manhattan.

According to the World Bank, Palestinians are currently experiencing the worst economic depression in modern history, caused primarily by the long-standing Israeli restrictions that have dramatically reduced Gaza’s levels of trade and virtually cut off its labour force from their jobs inside Israel. This has resulted in unprecedented levels of unemployment of 35 to 40 per cent. Some 65 to 75 per cent of Gazans are impoverished (compared to 30 per cent in 2000); many are hungry.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n21/roy_01_.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. There will be a huge population who has only ever known life in a ghetto.

Can you imagine what that means for the future?

[pelsar]

6. very bad news....

bad for israel...worse for the Palestinians......time to start changing the game plan, remove the victim mentality, remove the "if its good for israel, then we wont do it" mentality and concentrate solely on whats good for for the gazans....what makes their lives better....swallow their pride and get to work on that....

will their leaders do it?..will their supporters do it?...you tell me....would you support actions that may be good for the gazans but are good for israel as well?...and condem actions that irreguardless of israel in the end only damage the day to day living of the gazans?...or is pride and honor more important that improving ones day to day life?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. "Improving one's life?" Fuck that. Improving day to day life is not the goal.

It's full participation in the human race -- just like Israeli Jews. Would you settle for a ghetto half life, where you allowed out of the cage once in awhile?

I think not.

Israel could well have to deal with the feral ghettoees they've created.

Good luck with that.

[oberliner]

13. Israeli non-Jews don't have full participation in the human race?

Why did you single out "Israeli Jews" as opposed to writing "Israelis" ?

And a three-part follow-up question, do you think there is anything that the Palestinian leadership could do to remedy this situation? If you were Ismail Haniyeh would you do anything differently? If so, what?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. I don't think t here is a single thing Palestinians or their leadership can do that would could

substantively change Israel's chosen course.

I believe that international sanctions, boycotts and divestment would work wonders, though.

[oberliner]

24. Renouncing violence, ending all rocket attacks, recognizing Israel?

None of those steps could change anything?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. Been there, done that. The outcome was exponential settlement expansion. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. Don't be coy Oberliner. You know full well that Arab Israelis do not enjoy the full benefits

of Israeli citizenship. Pretending they are equal is a joke.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. What benefits do Jewish Israelis enjoy that Arab Israelis do not?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Have you ever driven past an Arab town in Israel? Driven past an Arab Israeli school?

Are you joking? Do you actually mean to say that Arab schools are equally funded? That Arab municipalities receive equal funding?

Arab Israelis live as minorities in a nation where politicians openly speaking of transferring them, for crying out loud...

Just a few examples....

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Are you not able to answer the question?

"Arab Israelis live as minorities in a nation where politicians openly speaking of transferring them" They are far from the only ones, but that is not an example of where Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis have different benefits of Israeli citizenship.

[grassfed]

38. Livni: Arab Israelis' Future Lies 'Elsewhere'

11 December 2008

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni says her country's Arab citizens will only be able to fulfill their national aspirations outside of Israel.

Livni said Thursday that for Israel to remain a Jewish and democratic state, it must be one of two distinct national entities. She says Israeli Arabs must find their national solution "elsewhere."

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-12-11-voa27.cfm


---
Do you never tire of your bs?

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Do you ever tire of *yours*?

That has nothing to do with what was being said. Besides, she wasn't calling for mass expulsion.

[pelsar]

actually its the jews who are the "semi humans"....

any arab towns being terrorized by missiles and where the govt does nothing to stop it?.....ask the citizens of sederto, ashkelon what they think about the failures of the society....

Israeli arabs live quite safe, for the most part, from the ever prevalent hizballa/hamas/jihad terrorism whereas the jewish citizens are the prime targets.....

in fact hizballa even apologized when one of their missiles hit an arab town....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. You're funny Pelsar.

[razors edge]

74. Those were Arab towns,

before the Arabs were rounded up and herded into a pen to be bombed.

So tell us were would you rather be spending the night tonight, Ashkelon or Gaza?

I'd take tens years of sleeping just outside Gaza, to one night awake in it right now.

[pelsar]

14. so your the "all or nothing"...type of person....

usually those who have that kind of view in life end up with nothing....i guess its easy having that attitude when you not actually living in gaza.....so basically you and others who arent actually living there are telling those who are living in gaza, that it better for them to continue suffering until they get "everything" ...i'm sure they appreciate it

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Full humanity is non-negotiable. Being able to leave the cage on occasion, on the enslaver's say-so

is really not the goal.

Would you be satisfied with that half-life? I doubt it.

[oberliner]

23. The enslaver?

Are you claiming that the people of Gaza are the slaves of the Israelis?

[pelsar]

28. its how one gets to the goal...

by being stupid and using a tried and true method for failure.....or using methods that moves in that direction.... attacking israeli cities is the stupid method...and those who support it, both directly and indirectly are not helping their cause at all.

[Vegasaurus]

33. The definition of insanity

is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

That describes the 100 years of Arab terrorism, and yet they continue on the same path, with Hamas and Hizbollah leading the way as the most insane.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Palestinian freedom is not contingent on Palestinian behavior.

Never has been. Never will be.

[Vegasaurus]

41. As long as killing Israelis is more important than their own freedom

the will of the majority, which supports militant leaders and those who carry out terrorism, will limit their freedom.

In this case, it is not 'behavior' as much as "action".

If the Palestinians want freedom, they will have ensure that they can reign in their militants to behave with sanity.

Insane people who murder are usually locked up, because they don't know how to behave in a free society.

[High Plains]

75. "Insane people who murder are usually locked up"

or they vie for top Israeli leadership posts, counting on Palestinian blood to win them votes.

[DaLittle Kitty]

76. HEY VEGE, Yeah I Watch Da News... And The News IS SILENT On Gaza/Atrocities!

That IS Why I wrote My Read Between The Lines Post On This Forum... which interestingly was "pulled/archived!" (Lord knows I wrote it the way I did to remain within the "rules") Yes... If you look for the evidence you can find it... However, if you are just your average less than inquisitive individual who is subjected to minute by minute Obamarama ... the latest ATC distraction, historical though it may be... then you would not even be aware of the carnage/slaughter of what is essentially a two-thirds majority women/children casualty ratio (widely documented) by the Israeli Defense Forces... Which is a misnomer in itself as there is absolutely ZERO defense related activity in the context of this Israeli invasion for what comparatively speaking, is the U.S. Army/Air Force... vs vandals armed w/ fireworks (home made rockets).

The point I make is verifiable... Merely turn on MSNBC and watch for ONE hour... ZERO reporting on the Gaza catastrophe. ZERO! Yep I watch the news and I have seen the corpses of 5 year olds blown to smithereens by the dozens on youtube. I have even seen worse. It is the cash from that certain pac organization that I mentioned that keeps our politicians quiet. That is a major flaw in American politics. The effort by the media to purposely "avoid" telling the story when it is at its very apex has similar roots. So those without a voice suffer. Here's hoping to see some "D" in deeeyouuu! :)

[DaLittle Kitty]

80. Hey V. Please Watch This Youtube Vid and Comment...

Run time: 02:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc

[DaLittle Kitty]

79. Ahhh, What Freedom? There IS ONLY The freedom to ... Be WHAT The Israelis Want The Palistinians..

to be! So what kind of freedom is that? Stray dogs have more freedom... eh?

[shira]

43. so the freedom Palestinians had before Arafat in the early 90's.....

from 1967 to Arafat, BEFORE the Intifadas, Palestinians didn't have more freedom?

Also, had Israel given back the territories right after 1967....let's pretend at Khartoum the 3 no's were actually 3 yes's and Gaza and the W.Bank were given back to Egypt and Jordan, you think Palestinians would have their freedom today under Egypt and Jordan, or a better "half life"?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. Do you consider the situation in the 80's "more freedom?"

You have a funny definition of freedom.

[oberliner]

46. When did the Palestinians have more freedom?

Is there any period of time you could point to where the Palestinians enjoyed more freedom than they do now?

[shira]

47. yes, that's the better question

and I won't hold my breath waiting for an honest answer to it.

Let's see, full humanity (full civil rights package) was the norm for Palestinians during:

a) Ottoman empire occupation
b) British occupation
c) Egyptian/Jordanian occupation
d) none of the above

What is not debatable is that the closest Palestinians got to "full humanity" and a "full civil rights package" was between 1967 and the time that Arafat returned, under full Israeli occupation pre-Oslo.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. Shira, I lived in Gaza Strip in the late 80s. Do you realize there were nightly 8 pm curfews?

One had to be in one's house every night by 8, or risk being shot on sight.

What dictionary could one possbily use to describe that as "free?" The Pinochet Dictionary of Relative Terms?

[shira]

56. late 80s = intifada part I

How about from 1967-1987, life was not appreciably better for Palestinians during that time period than under Arab/Muslim occupation?

Again, would you be calling for "full humanity", an end to half-life, and "full civil rights package" if Egypt and Jordan continued their occupation after 1967 until present day? Do you consider Arab civilian life throughout that region, other than in Israel, "full humanity"?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. I don't think that Egyptians and Jordanians enjoy full political freedom. Not by a long shot.

But their freedom isn't in the best interests of international markets, so they are fucked.

I support people everywhere seeking to throw off the yoke of western colonialism and demand self-determination. I think all human beings are inherently valuable and equal. I don't buy into the notion that it's OK for some people to live under tyranny so Americans can borrow money they don't have to buy lots of cheap shit they don't need anyway.

I'm no fan of any of the stooge leaders in the ME, Hosni Mubarak included.

You guys who hearken back to the 80's like it was heyday crack me up. Even pre-Intifadah, dear Shira, 20 years of Israeli tyranny was unacceptable. It was unacceptable in 1987, 1997 and 2007. It's unacceptable today. It's certainly uglier and more deadly today, but it's fundamentally unchanged.

The goal is not to remove checkpoints, so that Gazan laborers can queue up to earn a few shekels in Israel, many times locked into their places of slave-like labor at night during the week, to do the dirty work that Israelis won't do... The goal is not to recreate the pre-Intifadah tyranny of Israeli occupation.

Life was easier pre-Intifadah I in many respects, but it was still living under the gun of the occupier. Life in 1987 sucked badly enough for the Intifadah to erupt. Do you forget this?

Maybe you would be content to live without political self-determination. I am not. The vast majority of Americans and Europeans are not. Palestinians are human beings too, and they have sacrificed more than most in order to achieve those rights.

[oberliner]

61. Does any Arab living anywhere in the Middle East enjoy full political freedom?

If so, where?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

64. The Arab Middle East is surely replete with stooges and kingdoms. Palestinians have it worst of all

however.

What's your point? Is that all Arabs deserve?

[oberliner]

66. My point is that Arabs deserve much more

They deserve the same freedoms people enjoy in the Europe, US, and elsewhere. It seems, however, that there is a lot of hypocrisy from those UN member states in the region who criticize the Israeli treatment of Palestinians, yet afford their own people limited freedom, to say the least.

You think that Palestinians have it worst of all? I would disagree with that. Do you think Arabs living in Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Libya have more freedom than Palestinians?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. I think Palestinians under Israeli occupation and siege, by far, live the most

difficult lives in the Middle East.

Are you serious?

[oberliner]

69. My claim has nothing to do with who has the most difficult lives

My claim is that Arabs living in Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Syria have less freedom than Palestinians.

You don't agree?

[Ken Burch]

73. What's happening in other Arab countries is off the point.

Palestinians bear no responsibility whatsoever for what the Egyptian, Libyan, Jordanian, Syrian or other Arab governments do. To say they do or to imply that they want an "Arab dictator" type of regime in Palestine is to indulge in the myth that Arabs are monolithic and generic, and also incapable of political and social change.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. Oberliner, still don't think Palestinians, especially Gazans, have it worse? nt

[shira]

72. thanks for the response PM....

but I notice you still cannot admit that b/w 1967-1987 Palestinians enjoyed more freedom than any Arabs in the rest of that region.

Why?

Okay, it's not the goal to have that freedom while under occupation - and I agree - nevertheless, that they enjoyed FAR more freedom before both Intifadas than other Arabs all around them is undeniable.

no violence = more freedom = more Palestinians alive today = better quality of life for Palestinians than Arabs in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, etc.

Life under Israeli occupation is closest to the "full humanity" you claim you want than anything Arab dictatorships will ever provide for Palestinians.

It seems you prefer conditions for Palestinians under Jordanian or Egyptian rule than what Palestinians had from 1967-1987. But that is not "full humanity".

While you believe "behaving" only guarantees MORE occupation, I disagree. Non-violent peaceful resistance works for western audiences and in western societies. Boycotts and divestments would have resulted against Israel for not paying attention to non-violent resistance and there's no question that with the Palestinian leadership of 1987 (not Arafat) and no Intifadas, and no ratcheting up of terror, that a peaceful negotiation would have already resulted and the Palestinians would have their own state by now.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

77. Shira, you just don't get it.

"a little more freedom" than political slaves isn't the goal.

It's not good enough for Jews in Israel, and it's not good enough for Arabs on the other side of the green line.

If Palestinians had it so great pre-1987, why did the intifadah break out?

Ungrateful bastards, aren't they? They had it good for second class citizens, had the honor of working as slave labor in Israel, and they had to go and blow it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. No. I don't see any such period to point to when Palestinians had any real freedom.

Do you?

[shira]

57. so "full humanity" for you means....

only that Israel gets the hell out of the way and lets the Hamas/PLO rule?

Just to clarify.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

59. I am speaking about Palestinians having the full range of human freedom.. to move, to educate their

children, to create an economy, to succeed or fail, to elect their leaders to lead a sovereign nation...

Just like Jews in Israel.

[oberliner]

60. And unlike Arabs in most of the Middle East

Many of whom lack those same human freedoms.

Edit to add: I also believe it's highly unlikely that the Palestinian people will enjoy all those freedoms under a Hamas-run government. Would you agree?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

63. Do you posit that because Arab puppet gov'ts deny freedom to their citizens

(often these leaders are US puppets) that that means Palestinians have no rights?

[oberliner]

65. No, my theory comes from statements made by Hamas leaders and spokespeople

Specifically, Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas co-founder and current spokesperson.

Here are some remarks from him on CNN.com:

News reports have said Hamas plans to establish separate schools for boys and girls in the Palestinian territories and implement stricter Islamic law. Asked whether he plans a theocracy instead of a secular government, Zahar responded, "Do you think the secular system is ... serving any nation?"

A secular system "allows homosexuality, allows corruption, allows the spread of the loss of natural immunity like AIDS," he said. "We are here living under Islamic control. Nothing will change ... If you are going to give a hint that Islamic society will be against the modern life, I think it's incorrect."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/29/hamas.interview/

And here's an article from The Times (UK):

No dancing and no gays if Hamas gets its way

After controversies when a Hamas-led council halted a dance festival and Islamist gunmen stopped a rap band performing in Gaza, Dr Zahar defended the enforcement of a strict interpretation of Islam.

“A man holds a woman by the hand and dances with her in front of everyone. Does that serve the national interest?” Dr Zahar said on the Arabic website Elaph. “If so, why have the phenomena of corruption and prostitution become pervasive in recent years?”

Because of successes by Hamas in municipal polls and its likely strong showing in January’s parliamentary elections, secular Palestinians fear that it will try to impose its ultraconservative vision on them. Its Gaza heartland has no cinemas or bars, yet the West Bank has a brewery and Ramallah restaurants serve wine.

Dr Zahar condemned homosexual marriage, saying: “Are these the laws for which the Palestinian street is waiting? For us to give rights to homosexuals and to lesbians, a minority of perverts and the mentally and morally sick?”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article575744.ece

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. I realize you're looking for the opening to "stick it to" Hamas, but I was asking about

other Arab gov'ts...?

Do Arabs in Palestine not deserve rights because those rights aren't widely available in the Arab world?

I support gay rights for sure, but let's face it... Lesbians and gays can't be married in most places in the USA.

I know you disrespect Hamas. I wouldn't vote for them either, and wouldn't want to live in a theocracy. Hamas wasn't elected because of its religious views. I think we both know that.

[oberliner]

70. Palestinians deserve the same rights as all human beings

I would be very pleased if Palestinians ended up with the same rights that we enjoy here in the United States.

I just don't see that happening as long as Hamas is in power.

[Vegasaurus]

62. And which government of the Palestinians

would allow the citizens to have "the full range of human freedom"?

Just checking here, because I don't see Hamas offering their citizens anything more than life under a different boot, and also stoning their women and hanging their gay people.

[pelsar]

48. reality begs to differ....

Palestinian freedom is not contingent on Palestinian behavior......actually everybody in the world has their freedom linked to their behavior, the Palestinians are no different...but here its gets interesting....

you believe there should be an international boycott of israel to change "israels behavior"....so you do see ones freedom to act is linked to ones behavior, unless of course, as you see it, for the Palestinian one is not responsable for ones actions...(that seems to be a reoccurring theme)

sorry, but thats not the way life works...

shooting rockets at israelis cities, is frowned upon, not just by israel but by egypt as well.....and it does have its affect upon Palestinian/gazan freedom....one day some of their leaders and supporters will figure that one out....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. So is occupation punishment for bad behavior?

[pelsar]

71. closed borders....

trying to kill civilian is considered a "bad thing" targeting them in normal circumstances can even be considered terrorism....there are consequences, in the case of gaza-borders get closed

but i dont understand, this has been going on for about two years...are you saying that you havent figure it out?

shoot kassams/mortars = closed borders, no supplies

[soulcore]

81. "shoot kassams/mortars = closed borders, no supplies"

Here's the thing about withholding aid and supplies from a civilian population; it's collective punishment.

Which, last I checked, was a war crime.

[shira]

42. full humanity is the goal? who are you kidding?

With Palestinian leadership in the form of Hamas or the PLO, you are hoping that with their own state, Palestinians will attain full humanity - or get the full civil rights package?

A "half-life" under Hamas/PLO is actually the BEST Palestinians can hope for once they have their own state. Ask any neighboring civilians in Arab states surrounding Israel and the OPT. Or do you somehow believe THAT is full humanity like the Israeli-Jews have?

Did Palestinians enjoy the full civil rights package - you know, full humanity - under their Egyptian and Jordanian occupiers prior to 1967? We're to understand they're fighting to attain that kind of full humanity again?

what a joke.

[Vegasaurus]

49. Full humanity is not a possibility in an Islamic state that still believes in stoning women

This is why Isareli Arabs don't want to leave for a new Palestinian state.

They know that they have more economic possibilities and civil/human rights than they would ever have under a Hamas type government,

[joshcryer]

82. Israel created these ghettos?

The Arab world has nothing to do with them? How about letting Jordon give citizenship to Palestinians again? Or any Arab nation for that matter.

[bemildred]

7. Not going to be pretty, not going to be peaceful.

History is actually full of this stuff. It takes generations to make such a mess, and they can last for centuries, once made. Eventually the pressure has to go somewhere.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. I think in the absence of a realtively quick agreement, we will be looking at a

very, very bloody future.

[Vegasaurus]

12. Which will be bloodier and more miserable for the Palestinians

which is why their violent resistance has never improved their lives.

[azurnoir]

25. Forget the usual Hamas cover?

Which will be bloodier and more miserable for the Palestinians which is why their violent resistance has never improved their lives.

[pelsar]

8. I love these articles...they drip with hypocrisy.....

amongst the various sentences:

That is why the Israelis tolerate the hundreds of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt

so what in the hell does that mean?...israel tolerates the tunnels....i guess its written for the ignorant..either the willful or the simply ignorant. For the writer of the article, i am curious what would an "intolerant israel do?...bomb egypt and start a war?...return to gaza? and reoccupy it?...or use its influence in the US to cut off funds to Egypt?

i cant think of any other options...perhaps use poison gas that will seep in the sand beneath the egyptian/gaza border transported by red ants?

maybe the question should be why do the egyptians "tolerate the tunnels"...they are after all under egyptian soil...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. I thought Israel tolerated the tunnels because they are not totally inhuman bastards.

Or do you actually want Gazan kids to starve?

[pelsar]

15. how does israel "tolerate the tunnels?

they're not under israeli soil.....seems to me they're an egyptian/hamas thing

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. I'm so sure Israel is powerless to destroy tunnels if it so chose...

cut me a break.

[azurnoir]

27. When was the last time the Israeli government or IDF

took on an enemy that it knew could actually do it some real harm?

[pelsar]

31. just an interesting question...

so are you suggesting that israel should go to war to "prove itself"...would you prefer israel attack egypt? or Jordan or syria?.....or is your question merely one of curiosity because you wondering and dont know?

[pelsar]

29. facts and history?....

when israel was physically in gaza and rafah, they couldnt find them.....at least not without flattening rafah

[azurnoir]

26. The Israeli government "tolerates" the tunnels because

it needs petrol from Egypt and because if IDF were to attack there is a chance Egypt could do some real damage, they have more than some unguided rockets or missiles.

[pelsar]

30. wow...israel, just like other countries

and israel tolerates the occasional infiltrator from jordan and syria because there is a chance jordan and syria might counter attack...and the US tolerates the mexicans because they dont need a war with mexico..and spain tolerates....and so on and so forth

i guess your right, countries tolerate the policies of their neighbors since going to war to change those policies isnt always the reasonable path...i guess israel is just doing what every other democratic nation on this world does....it "tolerates" its neighbors polices...only when israel does it, there is always the hint that it might just go to war....

[azurnoir]

32. Thanks for the laugh

"and the US tolerates the mexicans because they dont need a war with mexico."

no Mexico is a source of very cheap labour in good times and diversion to take the blame in bad times also it would be more expensive to simply annex Mexico than to tolerate some illegals, and Spain? Last I heard they were arresting ETA so much for tolerance.

[pelsar]

34. change in story line?

my how the storyline changes when the first one doesnt work out....the only consistency is that somehow israel is the "bad guy"...

lets see, when egypt kept the Palestinian border shut i believe the storyline was that israel didnt allow egypt to open the border....here there were various speculative reasons as to how israel controlled egypt, be it via military threat, or financial threat.

now that egypt has shown that infact israel does not control it and that egypt does what is in egypts interests, one must find a reason why israel does NOT control egyptian foreign policy...and now we have one...because egypt sells israel oil.

So guess the speculation is that if egypt did not sell oil than israel would not tolerate the tunnels, would control egyptian foreign policy and might possibly start a war and attack egypt to close the tunnels...is that what your speculation is now? (since the previous one fell through)

[azurnoir]

35. Change? Hardly

The discussion was about Israel bombing or shelling Egypt, a slight difference?

As far as change in storyline when I said that Egypt does what is in its interest I was "out to get Israel at te expense of the Palestinian people" but here we have from you

"now that egypt has shown that infact israel does not control it and that egypt does what is in egypts interests, one must find a reason why israel does NOT control egyptian foreign policy...and now we have one...because egypt sells israel oil."

its all good huh?

As far as speculations go I speculated that the only "target" Israel would dare attack of all the ones it has been shaking its fist at was Gaza as it was the softest, not to mention safest and well here we are

BTW let me know when Israel refuses that Egyptian oil cause according to your post it really must not need it.

[pelsar]

36. so you never claimed that israel controlled the

gaza/egyptian border after israel pulled out...and that israel might attack egypt (speculation) if egypt does not keep it shut?

you really never speculated on this?

[azurnoir]

37. No dear I did not

you kept trying say to that I did, its been a good 6 months since you tried that one though, what running out of stuff? What I said was that there was diplomatic pressure from Israel and possibly the US for Egypt to not open the border on a permanent basis but I did post a snippet from JTA the other day that made that claim because considering the source I found it interesting if not a bit humorous .

[shira]

44. rotflol.....amazing isn't it?

that was the exact speculation.....and now it's the tail wagging the dog instead....a complete 180 degree reversal.

[azurnoir]

54. Do you even know what you are talking about?

com'on be exact. It was your rather disingenuously posted thread I made that post on you certainly did not have much to say then.