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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:36 AM
Original message
What 'yes' means
Finally, six years after it was conceived and in the six years in which it has been reaffirmed annually, the Arab Peace Initiative has merited a discussion among the Israeli public. When the Arab world unanimously said "no," we didn't ask about its intentions. When the Arab world says "yes" to Israel, yes to normalization and an end to the conflict, the puzzled expressions multiply as to what exactly is meant by "yes."

While the Arab initiative has only recently made its way onto our agenda, a fierce debate is raging in the Arab world between its supporters and opponents in the political and public realm. Indeed, the language adopted by the Arab initiative with regard to the question of Palestinian refugees leaves room for more than one interpretation and thus requires a cautious approach - an opinion not shared by Arab and Palestinian naysayers.

From Hamas and Islamic Jihad to Hezbollah and Al-Qaida, these detractors are firmly convinced that the initiative deals a final blow to the Palestinian "right of return" and the possibility of exercising that right within Israel proper. In their view, there is no equivocation in the initiative on all issues related to "an agreed-upon solution" to the Palestinian refugee problem. In officially articulating their positions, these forces have rejected the Arab initiative, particularly the clause about the refugees, since it was first proposed in March 2002.

They remained so unsatisfied that this year they convened two conferences in Damascus, both of which were sponsored by Syria and Iran and which excluded moderate Arab states as well as the Palestinian Authority: The Palestinian National Conference of January 2008 and the International Right of Return Conference, held last month. These gatherings were principally directed against the concession inherent in the Arab initiative on a return of refugees to areas within Israel's boundaries.

On the day the initiative was launched, Hamas published a communique that denounced the expropriation of the "sacred right of return" from its rightful owners by virtue of the demand "to bring the matter to the negotiating table and to implement it by way of mutual agreement with Israel." The head of Islamic Jihad, Ramadan Shallah, said in a programmatic speech before the attendees in Damascus that the Arab initiative is worse than the Balfour Declaration. All because of the clause pertaining to the refugees, in which the rightful owners of Palestine concede to those "who have no rights" (Israel), whereas in the Balfour Declaration, "those who are not the owners" (the British) gave Palestine "to those who have no rights" (the Zionists).

Shallah branded the readiness of the Arabs and the Palestinians to adopt the initiative as "a Nakba of the consciousness." This is also the reason why Hamas, all throughout its ongoing dialogue with Egypt and Fatah, refused to even accept a softened wording, which agreed to "an Arab consensus and its decisions," because it saw this as implied support for the Arab initiative.

The inter-Arab disagreement over the refugee clause of the Arab initiative shows us the lengthy road this wording has traveled from the fundamental Arab and Palestinian positions on the issue. Those opposed to the interpretation I mapped out - like Alexander Yakobson in his letter to the editor in Monday's Hebrew edition - ignore the part of my argument that emphasizes the inter-Arab controversy as a testament to the enormity of the change. Does skipping over this important fact reveal a fundamental Achilles heel in their argument? What they dismiss by claiming that there is no real change in the Arab position is viewed by the Arab opponents of the initiative as a significant change. If this is the case, whose interpretation is more trustworthy?

In my eyes, the opinions expressed by Arab critics about the initiative are more credible than those made by Israeli opponents, because the former continue to cling to maximalist Arab positions. If we accept the premise that they are genuine in their fanaticism, we need to accept their statements as pointing to a shift expressed in the Arab initiative. We cannot remain hung up on Hamas' obstinate stance as proof that an agreement is not possible and at the same time ignore its statements arguing that the Arab initiative betrays sanctified values.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1044855.html
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. The simple fact is this
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 09:27 AM by azurnoir
no one is going to get everything they want on either side, there will have to be compromises made by both parties. The one stipulation I have issue with is that a Palestinian State can not have a military all countries have a right to self defense and Israel's requirement seems bad faith or an accusation from the start as if the only possible purpose of a military is to attack Israel, however a new Palestinian state could easily be in danger from elements both external and internal who disagree with a a Palestinian state that came as a result of comprise, Israel defending Palestine against such attacks would only add fuel to the fire

There are currently 21 countries with no or limited military, many are "postage stamp" countries in Europe or Pacific Islands, the most major is Iceland with a limited military and who is also a NATO member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. curious.....
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 12:32 PM by pelsar
many of those who propose some variation of peace with israel use the word "Justice".......(ask pm for an example)...i never understood the use of the word given that its definition of what is "just" can never be agreed upon.....

trying for a "just" peace in my mind is asking for failure.....the definition of justice will never be agreed upon by any of the parties involved nor their constituents...

since we almost always disagree.....your take on it?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not to be all Bill Clintony
but that depends on what "just" means, as I said no one is going to 100% happy with the final so the closest to justice is going to be compromise, the "right of return" for instance as I have said perhaps for those actually expelled from Israel but not their descendants, most of whom I am not so sure even want to live to in Israel it is at this point in time a hostile foreign country. The "how could they not want to live in Israel" attitude I have seen here seems hyperbole at worst and arrogance at best.

Withdrawal to the greenline allowing for settlement blocs, as long as that does nopt divide up Palestinian territory into separate isolated city states fine and any settlers who wish to remain in the new Palestinian state should do so as citizens of that state with full right and privileges, not Israeli citizens and the the Palestinian government should also be required to insure their safety.

Jerusalem I am lost on that one perhaps it should belong to no one and be declared an international zone at least the "old city" who governs it? I do not know a separate council, the UN already failed on that although it was 60 years ago. Heck the "old city" could be declared a giant archeological site as I understand from those that have lived there you can not dig a hole anywhere in the city more than about 3 feet deep without finding artifacts.

Palestinian military to expound on what I said above once a peace deal is made and executed any number of terrorist organizations lose their pet cause and are not going to I suspect going to take that "lying down"
as it were the new Palestinian State needs to be able to defend itself and that the message of that defense is best delivered by Arabs.

So is there a completely "just" peace no but nothing is perfect, for either side to insist on a totally just plan is a formula for failure, so I guess in that we agree

Is there an eclipse today or something?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. i dont like the word being used....
thats my contention.....justice as i see it, is simply not a part of the process. It raises hopes or expectations that somehow all the past violence and those who committed it, will then "pay for it"

and that certainly is not going to happen....


Any one looking for a "just" solution, will either need Clintons word play or simply accept that justice will not happen.......When i see the word being used, i just start to shake my head.....
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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. okay
but would you mind commenting on the details of the API? what's your take on it? is it a worthless peice of paper or is there possibly something behind it?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. *Justice* and *just* are two different things...
I'll give you an example of how I've seen each used...

*There must be justice for the Palestinians*

Justice is and has been used the same way here by indigenous groups. I'm pretty sure in both cases, they don't mean the literal 'someone or something must pay for what happened to us' but is more about wanting recognition of their grievances.

*There must be a just solution to the I/P conflict*

I take that one as meaning the same thing as *fair*. Sure, there could be resolutions to the conflict that bring peace to only one group (eg Feiglin's 'they won't have civil rights but I'll let them stay as long as they don't cause trouble are are grateful to me) but not to the other. A just resolution involves peace for both sides, where both Israelis and Palestinians have both civil and human rights in their respective states....
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Who cares about this rumination?
Hamas has clearly and unequivocably stated its goals for many years.

They won't give up their resistance until they get back all of "greater Palestine" (ie Israel) and they expect full right of return.

Those are non-starters for negotiators, and it's a little hard to believe anyone finds any "significant change' in the Arab (at least the Hamas) position, since there clearly have been none.

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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. how can i put this guy on ignore?
can someone please tell me?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Here's how, along with a word of caution...
Edited on Wed Dec-10-08 06:32 AM by Violet_Crumble
Instructions first. See this symbol at the top left hand corner of any of yr posts?

Click it.

Now for the word of caution, and I'm saying this because just today I've seen three different people say they have a poster on ignore or are intending to do so. When a poster has been here over a year and has continually violated the rules of the forum on an almost daily basis, I think people starting to put them on ignore is just doing the admins work for them. After all, where's the argument then for not allowing conservatives to post here? We should all just put them on ignore and not think the mods and admin should have to deal with them. It's the same thing here. A lot of people put a poster who's constantly violating the rules and spirit of DU on ignore, and when someone does complain, the mods will think there's no problem coz there's no alerts or deleted posts. Plus putting people on ignore can create holes in threads that make it difficult to read them. Having said all that I've got one person in this forum on ignore, mainly because they only do drive-pasts sporadically and I don't think anyone else has them on ignore. It saves me having to read multiple replies that have nothing to do with what I've said containing a torrent of highly partisan propaganda links. They can still feverishly post away, which they must as 'Ignored' replies to a lot of my posts, but I don't have to waste my time reading what was proved time and time again to be extremely one-sided drool....
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. As perhaps the most combative and "droolish" poster here
I'd say the mods should certainly ban you. Violet, for the way you chase after people and feverishly chastise them.

Pot=kettle.

I am here as a voice of reason for the existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland.

I have not violated rules.

I will continue to post here, to ensure that people who see nothing wrong with human rights violations, but call themselves progressives, have their hypocrisy pointed out.

If the mods have a problem with my posts, I am sure they will let me know, but since you aren't a mod, Violet, you can pretty much quit chasing me around. It makes you look ridiculous.


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delad Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I see what you mean
Edited on Wed Dec-10-08 07:51 PM by delad
but I don't see any report button, or am i just blind?
edited to add: oops, i've just found it :blush:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Do you read articles before you reply?
It's just that if you'd read the article you'd have noticed that there has been a significant change in the position of Arab states, yet you come out of it with a bizarre claim there is no change....
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