The Tunnel Kings of Gaza

[shira]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,587114,00.html

<snip>

The days when the tunnels of Gaza were shrouded in mystery are long gone. Up until a few months ago anyone asking questions about the underground stream of goods into Gaza encountered a wall of silence. Today the people of Rafah readily reveal what they know about the tunnel trade: for example, that the smuggled goods are transported in plastic trays attached to each other like the pearls of a necklace, and are hauled through the tunnels by engines. Or that anything can be brought into Gaza this way if there's a market for it -- dissembled motorbikes, Viagra, perfume. Around 20 pipelines have been laid, and diesel and gasoline are pumped into Gaza through them. Even brides have been known to crawl through the tunnels to their weddings.

A normal tunnel is 800 to 1,400 meters long, says Abu Hisham. On the Palestinian side they are usually dug from ruined buildings or equipment sheds. From there, working parties of six men start digging their way towards the Egypt at a depth of 15 to 30 meters. A contact on the Egyptian side signals where the exit can be dug. It takes around six months to dig a tunnel. "It costs me $100,000 to get a ready-to-use tunnel, including bribes," says Abu Hisham. But he quickly recoups the outlay. He estimates that he currently earns $25,000 a month.

<snip>

[byronius]

1. Fascinating.

[Alamuti Lotus]

2. sheesh, I picked the wrong line of work

He estimates that he currently earns $25,000 a month.

I was reading a few months ago how the authority was reaching a settlement with the "smugglers". Like any government, The Man in Gaza was nervous about not getting their cut; the agreement reached included state licensing of the tunnels with workers comp given to the 'employees'. Not sure what has come of that.

[shira]

3. Gaza tunnel into Israel from October 2008

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://fpnp.net/arabic/%3Faction%3Ddetail%26id%3D11984&tbb=1

The collapse of a tunnel north of the Gaza Strip

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

التاريخ : 12/10/2008 الوقت : 22:56 Date: 12/10/2008 Time: 22:56 غزة – فراس برس- ذكر شهود عيان أن نفقا لحماس انهار، اليوم، في منطقة العطاطرة شمال بيت لاهيا .وأضاف الشهود أن مسلحين من حماس أغلقوا المنطقة بشكل كامل لعمليات الإنقاذ والإخلاء.

Gaza - AFP - Witnesses said that Hamas tunnel collapsed today in the Atatra area north of Beit Lahiya. Witnesses said the Hamas gunmen sealed off the area full of rescue and evacuation.

Beit Lahiya isn't anywhere near the Rafah border....it's in northern Gaza with the only thing near being ISRAEL....and this is about 4 weeks prior to the latest Gaza tunnel that the IDF destroyed

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. How dare they find a way to survive Israel's attempt to annihilate them.

I guess they didn't get the memo that when a military power with nuclear weapons decides your existence is in the way of their territorial and religious-nationalist ambitions they are supposed to ... to what? ....

[backwoodsbob]

6. if a nuclear armed power really wanted to annihalate

palestine..it would have been done already

[LeftishBrit]

8. True. Israel doesn't treat the Palestinians well (neither does anyone) but they're not being

annihilated.

[zonmoy]

29. Not really since they arent dumb enough to think that nuking

the palestinians wouldnt destroy themselves with the fallout.

[shira]

13. nonsense

Israel could have annhilated Gaza 100X over by now if that's what they wanted to do. Give Hamas Israel's arsenal and there's no question millions of Israelis would be killed in no time flat. Israel's leaders would all be hanged publicly on gallows. Hamas' genocidal intentions have always been perfectly clear.

Also, Israel traded land for peace with Egypt and Jordan, turned over Lebanon and Gaza for nothing but war in response (I realize Israel's withdrawals mean nothing, as though they should have stayed in Gaza and Lebanon).....and in your mind all these withdrawals prove Israel has territorial / religious nationalist ambitions? Are you serious?

Finally, as to your question - what are they (Hamas) supposed to do in response to these delusional charges against Israel Answer: Umm...what, blow up kindergarteners deliberately, or teenagers at the club, maybe people eating pizza at Sbarro? Sure, what else can they do for "self defense" against the crimes Israel has or hasn't perpetrated?

ps
The point in bringing up the tunnel in northern Gaza in mid October is to show now that TWICE Hamas has failed to dig tunnels leading into Israel (most likely either for terror attacks or kidnapping soldiers for ransom). Has nothing to do with desperation, annhilation, starvation, etc...

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Nonsense. Shame on every Israeli who goes to bed with a full stomach tonight. nt

[cali]

11. peas in a pod

the two of you are an object lesson.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. It's unconscionable. The only way for it to end is if enough Israelis say "not in my name."

Insult me however you like for telling the truth.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. You told no truth.

So, no worries.

[azurnoir]

27. delete

[cali]

24. Telling the truth?

All you did was express your hate for all Israelis. Not all that different from someone who expresses hate for all Palestinians.

That's your truth.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Count Gideon Levy in my pod.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x225155

[LeftishBrit]

9. I disagree.

I think that's just as oversimplified as saying that Israel are out to annihilate/destroy Gaza.

Gaza hasn't got much in the way of an economy of any sort; and does have a divided, corrupt and violent government that doesn't seem to care much about its citizens.

[cali]

10. that's just a disgusting and false claim.

really inexcusable. you've made your feelings about the Palestinians all too clear.

[Vegasaurus]

12. I'll amend my post

To say it's the goal of the government of Gaza.

Of course, the majority of Gazans also support terrorism against Israelis, but the minority appears powerless against these powerful forces of evil.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. The majority of Gazans are 'powerful forces of evil'??

Great to see nothing much changes round these parts....

[shira]

16. Hamas leadership is king in Gaza

How successful do you think a moderate party or moderate uprising in Gaza would be? I predict either tons of arrests, beatings, knee-capping, and jail time or certain death in response. How about you?

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Except Veggie was talking about the civilian population....

Maybe you need to read the exchange before popping up with something that had nothing to do with the post you replied to?

[oberliner]

21. Why do you refer to this poster as "Veggie" ?

I can see "Vegas" as a way of abbreviating Vegasaurus, but "Veggie"?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. coz I do. Why?

I find it kind of intersting that you seem to think it's more important to ask that rather than say anything at all about the comment veggie made about the majority of gazans being evil. Priorities are strange things hey?

[oberliner]

23. It seems needlessly discourteous

We are a relatively small community of folks who post regularly on these boards. It is always nice when we can share our perspectives in an atmosphere of respect and courtesy. Calling someone by something other than their screen name (or an obvious abbreviation thereof) seems mildly hostile.

Since you are identifying no particular reason why you would alter that posters name in that fashion, would it be unreasonable to suggest the use of the poster's actual screen name or an abbreviation such as "Vegas"?

[Violet_Crumble]

25. It's not,but yr post seems needlessly petty & picky

Who died and made you the arbiter of whats acceptable in abbreviations, Obie? I don't have to explain anything to you, especially when it's over something so goddam petty. What next? An accusation that I've been mildly hostile to every biscuit coz I call them bikkies? Or an apology to bbqs everywhere for calling them barbies? Seriously, you don't want to lecture about any air of respect, not with the title of yr post to PM and not with the way you've never lectured any pro-Israel poster who actually is hostile, yet now you try to stir up trouble over me shortening peoples screen names. You clearly think this is more important than someone saying what they said about gazans. If only they'd said it about Israelis, then there'd be something more important to get concerned about than a nickname.

[oberliner]

26. You make a very good point

The title of my post in response to the message you mentioned was somewhat disrespectful as well.

I will try to do a better job of being courteous to my fellow posters in the future.

Glad to have you posting on the board again!

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vegasaurus]

53. My post was deleted (I have no idea why)

But I said and repeat that Oberliner is one of the fairest and most balanced poster on this forum.

I think you owe him an apology, instead of the other way around.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Sounds like the coup attempt Israel and the US fomented.

[oberliner]

19. Again with this BS?

Amazing how a Vanity Fair article holds more weight than the statements of the actual elected leadership of the Palestinian Authority.

Here is a statement from Abbas in June of 2007:

"The political and military leaders of Hamas are planning a coup against the legitimate institutions, thinking they will be able to control the Gaza Strip by force."

And from Hamas:

"We have decided to clean the country from these ferocious dogs who have long been serving their Israeli masters."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6739691.stm

[delad]

30. how those

two quotes are supposed to undermine the Vanity Fair article will have to be explained, at least to me.

[oberliner]

31. From Al Jazeera (March 2008)

The US on Tuesday denied the coup plot allegations.

"There is no accuracy to that story. I've checked and there is no truth to it," Sean McCormack, the US state department spokesman, said.

A statement from the office of Mohammad Dahlan, the former head of the Palestinian national security council, called the Vantiy Fair article "highly inaccurate and misleading".

"Accordingly there was (and remains) no secret plan to carry out a coup against Hamas," said the statement.

"Although the US offered its financial support for the plan to reform the PA's security forces (by offering assistance for non-lethal equipment as requested by the PA), financial support was never received."

No official US stamps or seals appear on the document.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/03/200852513324982998.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. Oberliner, DAHLAN ENGINEERED THE COUP.

LIVE AT SIX: FOX DENIES RAIDING THE HENHOUSE.

We may disagree on many things and on interpretations of narratives, but no one who knows anything factual about this conflict denies this coup attempt.

No one.

[oberliner]

36. Pretty much everyone who knows anything factual about this conflict denies this claim

Pretty much everyone who knows anything factual about this conflict denies this claim of a coup attempt, and instead describes the events of June 2007 as a coup by Hamas against Fatah.

Here is a statement from Marwan Barghouti:

"The bloody coup by Hamas has clearly destroyed the bridges between Hamas and Fatah...The military coup carried out by Hamas dealt a big blow to the nascent democratic experience."

Are you suggesting that Marwan Baghouti does not know anything factual about this conflict?

Or was he in on it too?

[azurnoir]

47. Marwan Barghouti is in prision

and has been for some time, it is odd though that given your interpretation of a single sentence as a blanket condemnation and denial of Hamas that it is Hamas that has requested his release from prison. I have seen iut opined that Hamas did this in an attempt to tilt the election which makes no sense as Barghouti is quite likely to draw as Hamas voters as Fatah.

[delad]

37. what else would

dahlan and mccormack say, "fair cop guv, you caught us redhanded"?

[oberliner]

38. Cite any source other than the Vanity Fair article

Please identify any source that corroborates the information in the Vanity Fair article that doesn't refer back to the article itself.

Everyone accused in that article denies the accusations.

[azurnoir]

39. You must think that no one reads

avything but the out context cherrypicked quotes from an articlew entitled

US plot against Hamas' revealed

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/03/200852513324982998.html

most of the quotes were from officials in the Bush administration
will you deny that the Bush administration was both arming and training Fatah prior to the coup?

[oberliner]

40. The link to the full article was provided

The first part of the article talks about the claims made in the Vanity Fair piece.

The last part of the article, which I cited in its entirity, presents the response from those accused in that piece.

The US has supported Abbas and the PA since he became the democratically elected President of that organization because of his commitment to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state living in peaceful coexistence with Israel.

Hamas was welcome to join in that commitment but instead chose to maintain its violent stance against Israel and against peace, eventually culminating in their horrific coup wherein they violently drove Fatah out of Gaza, killing many innocent civilians (including children) in the process.

You can read reports from Human Rights Groups, both Palestinian and otherwise, which detail this actual coup that Hamas actually did conduct which resulted in the situation we see today.

[azurnoir]

44. You quote the Bush administrations denial

but that is all, are you claiming that this credible, especially given the circumstances?I and others here believed the US involvement before the Vanity Fair article was published, it was discussed on this board
Also you sidestep my question was the US arming and training Fatah prior to the Gaza coup?

Edited to add found this from April of year the time that the VanityFair article was published

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=207412

The original thread about the Vanity Fair article

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=202490

A link about the US/Fatah

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/12/14/MNGIPMV3N61.DTL&type=politics

[oberliner]

45. Gather as much information as you can and draw your own conclusions

That would be my recommendation.

The conclusion that I have drawn from the information I have gathered is that Hamas instigated an illegal armed takeover of Gaza.

You are welcome to draw whatever different conclusions you wish.

The US wasn't arming and training Fatah, they were arming and training the Palestinian Authority, which was ostensibly an ally.

[azurnoir]

50. The PA and Fatah are a bit more than allies

your post insinuates that they are different parties, they are not, The PA or PNA as it is known is the blanket organization of which Fatah is a part.

For other political parties see List of political parties in the Palestinian National Authority. An overview on elections and election results is included in Elections in the Palestinian National Authority.

From the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1993 until the death of Yasser Arafat in late 2004, only one election had taken place. All other elections were deferred for various reasons.

A single election for president and the legislature took place in 1996. The next presidential and legislative elections were scheduled for 2001, but were delayed following the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Following Arafat's death, elections for the President of the Authority were announced for January 9, 2005. The PLO leader Mahmoud Abbas won 62.3% of the vote, while Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a physician and independent candidate, won 19.8%.<14>

Main article: Palestinian presidential election, 2005

e • d Summary of the 9 January 2005 Palestinian presidential election results Candidates - Nominating parties Votes %
Mahmoud Abbas - Fatah or Liberation Movement of Palestine (Harakat al-Tahrâr al-Filistini) 501,448 62.52
Mustafa Barghouti - Independent 156,227 19.48
Taysir Khald - Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Al-Jabhah al-Dimuqratiyah Li-Tahrir Filastin) 26,848 3.35
Abdel Halim al-Ashqar - Independent 22,171 2.76
Bassam al-Salhi - Palestinian People's Party (Hizb al-Sha'b al-Filastini) 21,429 2.67
Sayyid Barakah - Independent 10,406 1.30
Abdel Karim Shubeir - Independent 5,717 0.71
Invalid Ballots 30,672 3.82
Blank Ballots 27,159 3.39
Total (turnout %) 802,077 100.0
Source: Central Elections Commission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority

[oberliner]

51. Are you suggesting that the Palestinian Authority should not have received US assistance?

I'm not sure what you are arguing here.

The PA was the internationally recognized representative body for the Palestinian people. The US and others sent aid to them in order to assist in their growth and development. Are you objecting to this?

[azurnoir]

52. I was replying to insinuation

that Fatah and the PA or PNA were different but allied and not parts of the same organization, US aid to or the other is still aid to the whole.

[shira]

46. so arming and training the PA = military hit against Hamas?

Maybe the USA realized Hamas would strike the PA so they armed and trained PA for defensive purposes. Makes sense. Prove it wrong. At least it doesn't sound as bat shit crazy as the Vanity Fair highschool thesis.

[azurnoir]

48. Ah yeah

the US knew more than 6 months prior, talk about high school theory, BTW are you playing hooky or between classes?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Oberliner, this attempt to deny historical fact is beneath you.

What a disappointment.

[oberliner]

35. ProgressiveMuslim, consider that the Vanity Fair article may not be entirely accurate

What other source exists for this claim other than the Vanity Fair article?

Can you point to any source material for this claim other than David Rose's Vanity Fair article?

[shira]

41. Vanity Fair - bastion of truth

Oh yes, another conspiracy theory.

The USA, being puppets of the zionists in Israel, wanted the PA to topple Hamas militarily. It worked out so well, the PA never mounted a threat as Hamas somehow found out and absolutely thrashed the PA. Nice story for Hamas, gets them off the hook with those who never want Hamas to ever take responsibility for their actions.

...but, but...wait...I thought I read here at DU just the other day that Israel wants Hamas to take out the PA so there can be absolutely no chance at peace with the Palestinians. Oh my!

Gee...what to believe?

Next we'll read of USA/Israeli intentions to bring al-Qaida in to mop the floor with Hamas and the PA. And then Hizbullah after that so Israel has a pretext to bomb Iran. And Lebanon. No wait, I forgot Syria too, they're part of the conspiracy too. And then Israel can take over Iran and put settlements there. And occupy Kazakstan too. And, and....

[azurnoir]

49. Oh such tired and untrue rhetotic

LOL The USA, being puppets of the zionists in Israel, wanted the PA to topple Hamas militarily.

The fact is that Israel quite loudly protested the entire training and arming of Fatah, the last thing Israel wants is militarily armed and trained Palestinians of any political party. The US involvement in this had far to do with undermining Iran's influence in area with Gaza being the "softer" target than Hezbollah than in helping Israel.

Next we'll read of USA/Israeli intentions to bring al-Qaida in to mop the floor with Hamas and the PA. And then Hizbullah after that so Israel has a pretext to bomb Iran. And Lebanon. No wait, I forgot Syria too, they're part of the conspiracy too. And then Israel can take over Iran and put settlements there. And occupy Kazakstan too. And, and....

Such a colorful imagination, wherever do you get this stuff?
Might be lucky for you it's impossible to make a backwards H.

[bemildred]

54. Prohibitions, blockades, and boycotts create black markets.

:think: