http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/joe_klein_on_neoconservatives.php (excerpted)
Joe Klein on Neoconservatives and Iran
29 Jul 2008 10:59 am
My friend and former colleague Joe Klein has made himself quite the figure of controversy over the past few weeks. First, he suggested that Jewish neoconservatives have "divided loyalties;" then he called John McCain desperate for arguing that Barack Obama is willing to lose the Iraq war in order to win the election. Then, a few days ago, he argued that McCain has surrounded himself with "Jewish neoconservatives" who want war with Iran. He's gotten a lot of pushback, including criticism from Abraham Foxman, the head of the Anti-Defamation League.
I called Joe with a bunch of questions. He stands by his criticism of Jewish neoconservatives, and explains Iran's nuclear ambitions this way: "Given the level of threats that they've been getting from the United States, and from Israel, it's a logical thing for Iran to want nuclear weapons as a deterrent." No one can say that Joe is afraid of the arena. Here are excerpts from our conversation:
Jeffrey Goldberg: What did you mean when you used the term "divided loyalty" to describe neoconservatives?
Joe Klein: I did not mean to imply that they were disloyal to the United States, but I think that, in some occasions and in some instances, especially this incredible push for war with Iran, they aren't thinking about the consequences.
JG: Do you think this push is coming out of the American Jewish community, or from Israeli leaders at this point?
JK: I think it's coming out of both. But I think that if you look at, for example, the Commentary blog, if you look at Joe Lieberman - and McCain is reflecting this quite a bit in what he said, and I think until he was called out on Afghanistan a few weeks ago, he was talking about Iran almost exclusively and he was doing it in the most flagrant way. My big problems with McCain began with a simple question that I asked him at a press conference: "Why do always talk about Ahmadinejad as if he is the leader of Iran when he isn't?" And he said, "I beg to differ with you, he is." I said, "But you know, the Supreme Leader controls the nuclear policy and the foreign policy," and McCain said, "But Ahmadinejad is the guy who shows up at the United Nations and the average American thinks he's the leader."
JG: Go back to this divided loyalty issue.
JK: Listen, people can vote whichever way they want, for whatever reason they want. I just don't want to see policy makers who make decisions on the basis of whether American policy will benefit Israel or not. In some cases, you want to provide protection for Israel certainly, but you don't want to go to war with Iran. When Jennifer Rubin or Abe Foxman calls me antisemitic, they're wrong. I am anti-neoconservative. I think these people are following very perversely extremist policies and I really did believe that it was time for mainstream Jews to stand up and say, "They don't represent us, they don't represent Israel."
JG: You wrote something that suggested you were skeptical about whether Iran actually wants to destroy Israel. You don't think Iran poses a mortal threat to Israel?
JK: They pick Ahmadinejad specifically because he's the guy making the wildest antisemitic statements. I think that's being done for political purposes, to scare the shit out of my parents. It's a Broward County strategy, it's a Florida strategy. On Iran, I think that it's a love/hate relationship, since Iran and Israel are natural allies. You know, when I was in Iran, I'd talk to people. I was talking to one right-winger, and I said, "You know who your natural ally is?" and I was thinking the United States and he said, "Oh, yeah, Israel." I think that my reading on the nuclear issue is, given the level of threats that they've been getting from the United States, and from Israel, it's a logical thing for Iran to want nuclear weapons as a deterrent. I don't think they'd ever actually use it. First of all, they don't actually have it, but if they did have it, they'd contaminate at the very least the third most holy site in Islam, and they'd kill a hell of a lot of Muslims. So I think that they want it as a matter of deterrence and a matter of prestige. When you look at Iran's behavior, it has not been irrational.
JG: Go back to the issue of the Jewish blogosphere, the Jewish conservative blogosphere.
JK: I just get very, very angry at them.
JG: You seem very angry at people who you specifically identify as Jewish neocons. And you're using the word "Jewish" in ways that we haven't seen Jewish reporters and Jewish columnists use.
JK: It's about time. I think everyone else is too afraid to do it. Let me just make something very clear that you already know about me. I am a strong supporter of Israel. I think Israel had a perfect right in 2002 to go into the West Bank and kick the shit out of those people who were making suicide bombs. I think if they wanted to now go into Gaza and take out the people who were hitting Sderot, they would have a perfect right to do that. I am not a Walt-Mearsheimer guy. I think Jews have a perfect right to have a lobby. I do believe that there is a group of people who got involved and had a disproportionate influence on U.S. foreign policy. There were people out there in the Jewish community who saw this as a way to create a benign domino theory and eliminate all of Israel's enemies.
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