As Gaza cease-fire holds, Israel eases economic blockade

[oberliner]

Tel Aviv - After three days without a single shooting violation of an Israel-Hamas cease-fire, Israel on Sunday boosted supplies of food and medicines into the Gaza Strip by about 50 percent and said it's considering further relaxations of the months-long siege on the war-weary enclave.

For all the official playing down of the Gaza cease-fire declared Thursday between Hamas and Israel, as well as predictions of its imminent demise, the agreement may mark a break with a long-standing Israeli and American boycott of the Islamic militant organization.

Israel's de facto recognition of Hamas's rule in Gaza, analysts say, holds the prospect of widening international acceptance for the organization, giving it a compelling incentive to keep up its end of the bargain.

"This is the power that Israel has to deal with," says Meir Javedanfar, a Tel Aviv-based Middle East analyst. "It's not full diplomatic recognition, but Israel has recognized Hamas as an important party – on some issues it can't be avoided.

"Israel is showing that its past policy of refusing to talk to militant organizations, something which it has been preaching to the US, is not always functional," he adds. "Jerusalem has realized that talking to its enemies is the shortest and most cost-effective path militarily, economically, and strategically."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080623/wl_csm/oclout_1

[azurnoir]

1. Every day this holds is a good day

No "fireworks" (celebration) quite yet, but at least thing have gotten this far.

OT but I have wondered if Obama "knew something" when he said he would not talk to Hamas.

[aranthus]

2. Inshallah, Omen. n/t

[Vegasaurus]

3. Like what? nt

[azurnoir]

4. Like perhaps

he or America would not "have" to, Israel was doing it already though Egypt.

Still I do not think it is the place of America to do this, at this point in time the more we "butt out" the better.

[xioaping]

10. Truce did not even last one week. Hate wins again

JERUSALEM - Palestinian militants on Tuesday fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel, the first such attack since a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza militants took effect last week.

The people (being generous here) fire the rockets because they said Isreal provoked it. Not sure if someone looked at them cross-eyed of what happened. Sure someone here can provide detail.

Two people were injured by the rockets. The people the sent the rockets into the air knew at the time they pushed the button that the rockets likely would kill or injur someone.

Hate

[pelsar]

5. 7:00am israeli time...mortar fell in israeli territory (israeli TV)

i doubt israel will react, but clarity is important......Hamas just broke the ceasefire.

[azurnoir]

6. Hamas or Hamas gets the blame

I am sure there will be a couple of self satisfied posters here, peace was ruining their line.
And strangely enough I doubt your one of them, you actually have to live with the results.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3559470,00.html

Will Israel respond:shrug:

I am sure by tomorrow the usual will be here posting that this is proof positive

That THEY be it Hamas or all Palestinians only care about killing Jews, rather then an act of unknown people or group that do not represent all or most likely at this point even Hamas.

[pelsar]

7. i doubt there will be a reply...as so far there hasnt

it really wasnt unexpected as hamas probably cant stop all the attacks by every group with a weapon (just as israel cant with its own citizens).

usually its more a matter of intent.....if it keeps up.....

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Let's hope it was a one-off...

Like you I don't think sporadic one-off things like this are unexpected, nor that they'd shake what is a fragile ceasefire (though I bet there's individuals who'd want the ceasefire to end and would do what they could to make sure it happened). So far it looks like both sides are keeping to their side of the deal and I really hope the ceasefire continues...

[azurnoir]

15. Hopefully Hamas will give

Islamic Jihad a "good talking to" in the old fashioned sense.

[Vegasaurus]

9. There has been no IDF response

but a mortar fired definitely is breaking the truce.

[xioaping]

11. Not sure if it is tomorrow yet but yes, someone is to blame

Who did you say it was again?

[azurnoir]

13. Asked specifically if it was Hamas

It was not as it turns out

[xioaping]

12. Is who they are really of any significance

It all comes down to hate.

[azurnoir]

14. Depends

Palestinian militants on Tuesday fired three homemade rockets into southern Israel, the first such attack since a cease-fire between Israel and Gaza militants took effect last week.

Islamic Jihad, a small armed group backed by Syria and Iran, claimed responsibility for the rocket fire. Although the West Bank is not included in the truce, the group said the Nablus raid had soured the atmosphere of calm

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the rocket attack came because of "Israeli provocation this morning" and added that Hamas was "committed to the calm." He said Hamas will talk with other factions and make sure they are committed, too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080624/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

[pelsar]

16. the "its not our fault" excuse....

doesnt really work. If hamas goes for a cease fire but cant reenforce it, then there really is no sense in even talking to them about it.

i believe the scenario goes like this:
- cease fire negotiated wit israel
- its broken by various Palestinian groups (as per gaza today)
- the Palestinian group that negotiated the cease fire claims its not them, and they have no control
-eventually israeli shoots back

and there then is a chorus blaming israel for breaking the cease fire*.

who wants to bet that will be the scenario soon?


*just from memory over the past 10 + years, i dont have any specifics at hand

[azurnoir]

17. No one here is blameless

isn't this what happened in March? Israel and Hamas have cease fire Israel does raid against can't remember Hamas or IJ in West Bank and when there is a response from Gaza "truce over".

To me Israel* is to blame for taking a poke at IJ who they know are "weak spot" and IJ is also to blame for taking the bait. Hopefully Hamas steps on them.

[pelsar]

18. the truce was specific....

its about gaza and gaza alone-did you not know, or prefer to skip the details of the truce?

If hamas cant/wont control its own society..the one that it governs over, then it really has no right negotiating a truce it cant keep....or its just PR move knowing full well that the press and other gullible people will blame israel for eventually striking back.....after the truce was broken....as it was today, by the Palestinians.

[azurnoir]

19. Yes I knew that

I edited my post and took that part out. So the question remains why do it, why poke IJ or Hamas in eye just cause the truce is not specific to the West Bank, as I pointed this is what happened during the last truce.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. "as I pointed this is what happened during the last truce"

How so?

[azurnoir]

21. Look it up I did n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

22. You made the point. You present it.

Or, are you saying you can't provide proof and are making another one of your patented "I believe it to be truth, so it is" posts?

[azurnoir]

25. I am not here to educate you

you presented the challenge, anyone who has read what is happening between Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank from at least March on knows how the last truce ended, if you wish to remain ignorant who am I to change that, end of story for me anyway, but I am sure not you

[Dick Dastardly]

27. In debate when you make an affirmative point as you did the burden of proof is on your shoulder

It is standard procedure for any debate as well as in the legal world

The burden of proof is a concept employed in debating, where the standard principle is that the side that "takes the affirmative" must shoulder the burden of proof. In other words, the side in a formal debate that argues that you should believe or do something must produce reasons why.




If a person is unwilling or unable to prove the statement s/he's making is true as you did, then there is no obligation to accept it is true, and can therefore reject it as unproven, & therefore untrue.

If you still don't believe me, just try to prove you don't suck.

(When you can't, it won't mean you do suck. or that you don't suck. or anything else, at all. And that is the point.)


Bottom line: If you want to prove something, it’s up to you to prove it.


Propaganda Techniques: Shift the Burden of Proof
I've been covering some of the common techniques of debate and propaganda. You can see the complete list at .

The technique of shifting the burden of proof onto your opponent is often encountered when we deal with religious leaders who are responding to criticisms of the common arguments for the existence of God. Here's the description of this tactic


Shift the Burden of Proof Onto Your Opponent

Make all kinds of unsubstantiated statements and claims, and when your opponent objects and challenges those statements, say, "Do some research on the subject and you will see that what I am saying is true."

It is the job of the person who is making the statements and claims to do the research and supply the evidence to support his assertions.



Full info
http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/08/propaganda-techniques-shift-burden-of.html



Applying the Cooperative Argument Model
with a
Traditional Debate Format
http://www.cooperativeargumentation.com/traditionaldebate.html





Text

[azurnoir]

29. delete n/t

[azurnoir]

30. Here ya go Dick

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/964348.html

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/hamas-israel-ceasefire-brings-hope-to-gaza/

[Dick Dastardly]

32. Thank you-I just get tired of people trying to shift the burden of proof or giving no proof when it

is required in any debate. This is not and was not directed at you specifically but at the many who do this.

Again
Thank You

[azurnoir]

33. I wasn't trying to shift burden

to be honest I was being a ______go ahead fill it in.

edited to add: I did not think then or now that either party is entirely blameless or to blame, what matters it that the violence stops.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. How predicable.

So you have nothing to back up your assertion and were just supposed to take it as "truth" because you typed it, right?

Yes, anyone familiar with events know that Hamas busted the last truce.

[pelsar]

31. IDF raids are not "poking them in the eye"...

there was reason the westbank was not included and in the end hamas accepted it.

they knew, the IDF knew that the raids would continue in the westbank, so there was no "poking in the eye".....it was no more than an excuse to be used to fire into israel.....and your posts are the example of how israel is to blamed when in fact it kept to the terms of the truce and hamas either didnt or couldnt.

classic example.

[Vegasaurus]

23. Hamas has said that it will control the militant groups

all of them.

This hasn't happened, obviously.

Israel could close up the crossings and stop the aid.

The conditions for lifting of the seige was stopping ALL rockets.

I count five already.

This is no truce (as expected).

[Vegasaurus]

24. Very prescient of you, Pelsar

Israel is always to blame, even when terrorists continue to shoot.

[azurnoir]

26. Very predictable of you n/t

[pelsar]

34. an update: 10:00am israeli radio....

hamas has declared that they wont interfere and stop the firing of the kassams on israel..........

can we blame hamas now?...or is israel still to blame?

[azurnoir]

37. A written update

Al Jazeera's David Chater in Jerusalem said that closing the crossings was the simplest way for Israel to put pressure on Hamas to bring Islamic Jihad under control.

"It prevents the use of Israeli air strikes against the crews which are firing the rockets which would be seen, perhaps, as a real breach of the ceasefire by Hamas and Islamic Jihad," he said.

IMHO Mr Chater is engaging in "wishful thinking" Israel will do what it pleases, if that is an airstrike or not.

Hamas did not say it would doing nothing to stop the Kassams, what Hamas says is that it will not use force, so in your mind this equates to doing nothing?

Hamas said that it has put pressure on the group to stop firing rockets, but Khalil al-Haya, one of the movement's leaders, said on Wednesday that its security forces would not be a "police force" for Israel.
"Even if there is a violation by some factions, Hamas emphasises its commitment to the calm and is working to implement the calm," al-Haya said.
"No one will enjoy a happy moment seeing Hamas holding a rifle in the face of a resistance fighter."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/06/200862553317485882.html

[pelsar]

38. not stopping kassams....

was what was reported....and i dont care what kind of pressure, thats up to them, after all by agreeing to the truce they also made a commitment to stop all attacks....(otherwise there is no reason for the actual truce)

and i have no idea what he meant that they wont be a police force for israel, i thought they wanted the kassams to stop for their own sake......guess its business as usual:

"we'll make a truce..and we'll expect israel to, but those other guys?..they'll can keep on shooting and we'll pretend there is a truce....." and well let the intl community condemn israel for not ignoring the attacks.

[Vegasaurus]

39. This is funny

"will not be a police force FOR ISRAEL"?

Meaning they cannot or will not control their own terrorists, but expect Israel to do it militarily, and then will cry a river when they respond.

Such a deal for Hamas.

They can always blame someone else for all their problems.

Close the gates. They have broken the truce.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Someone was trying to tell me in another thread that it's not a blockade...

I thought that was a really bizarre thing to try to argue since all I've ever seen was people try to argue that it wasn't a seige...

Anyway, I've got a question if yr round this thread and see this. What do you think of the ceasefire? I want to see it continue but see some flaws in how it's been put together. The ceasefire should have included the West Bank right from the start, as continued violence there can be carried out to provoke responses that will kill off the ceasefire. It doesn't make sense to me that while the ceasefire applies to Gaza that the IDF can attack militant groups in the West Bank. That'd be like rockets being launched into Israel from the West Bank instead of Gaza and it not being taken as a provocation (I personally think both actions would be clear provocations)....

[pelsar]

36. first..its a blockade...

but then one gets to argue everything here.....

a lot of politics going on that cant be ignored. The latest kassams would have been ignored (like the mortars) had they not fallen in Sederot. But that is besides the point. The was one major reason why the westbank was not included from a political point of view....

that would give Hamas huge political power, way beyond that of abbas and fatah....that they stopped the raids, something abbas could never do. That would clear the way for hamas to take over the westbank (to me a theocratic regime is the absolute worst kind of govt). They're trying, just like they eventually did in gaza. That was one reason why israel refused, a theocratic regime cannot be good for anyone.

there is also a couple of practical reasons, neither abbas nor hamas really control the westbank...its far more fractured than gaza, so any cease fire really wont hold up (either hamas or fatah will have to break it, depending upon who brokered it).....the history of the westbank is that when the IDF pulls out, soon after from that area is an attack.....

____

my opinion of the cease fire.... cynical...and i get more and more pissed off at hamas.....I would like the people of gaza to "get a life", have micowaves gas guzzling SUVs, join the shallow middle class and become a consumer society (being "green" of course).....

cant Hamas put "allah" on hold for a while and concentrate on the people in gaza? Or Egypt? open the gates, no one is shooting at them.....