Confronting Questions, Obama Assures Jews of His Support

[DeepModem Mom]

NYT: Confronting Questions, Obama Assures Jews of His Support
By LARRY ROHTER
Published: May 13, 2008

Faced with doubts about his support for Israel and American Jews, Senator Barack Obama has stepped up his efforts to reach out to the Jewish community over the past month, giving speeches and granting interviews to confront questions about the militant Palestinian group Hamas and his commitment to Jewish causes and values.

The efforts are part of “a very strong counteraction” against what the Obama campaign considers misinformation about the candidate, said Representative Robert Wexler, a Democrat from South Florida who often speaks on Jewish issues for the Obama campaign. “We’re going to continue to keep making this case with initiatives to make it clear that his support for Israel could not be more unequivocal,” Mr. Wexler said.

Since the beginning of his campaign for president, Mr. Obama has combated rumors and e-mail campaigns suggesting that he was a Muslim or was hostile to Israel, a problem exacerbated by pro-Palestinian remarks made by his former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. But several other developments, here and abroad, have also played a role in the outreach effort.

In an interview made available on Monday on the Web site of the magazine The Atlantic, Mr. Obama responded to a statement made last month by an official of Hamas, which the State Department classifies as a terrorist organization. The official, Ahmed Yousef, said that “we like Mr. Obama and we hope that he will win the election.” Senator John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, has seized on the Hamas comments to imply that Mr. Obama is soft on terrorism and so inexperienced in foreign affairs that he would damage the security interests of the United States and Israel. But in the Atlantic interview, with the writer Jeffrey Goldberg, Mr. Obama presented himself as an unwavering supporter of Israel.

“I think that the idea of a secure Jewish state is a fundamentally just idea, and a necessary idea, given not only world history but the active existence of anti-Semitism,” Mr. Obama said in the interview. “That does not mean that I would agree with every action of the state of Israel.” But, Mr. Obama continued, “the fundamental premise of Israel and the need to preserve a Jewish state that is secure is, I think, a just idea and one that should be supported here in the United States and around the world.”...

***

In a Gallup poll released last week, 61 percent of Jewish voters surveyed said they would vote for Mr. Obama if he became the Democratic nominee....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/us/politics/13obama.html

[Ian David]

1. I think you should cross-post this in the GD:P forum n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

3. Hi, IanDB1!

I don't post much in GDP. If you'd like to cross-post it there, please feel free.

[Ian David]

10. I'm not in the mood to take the flack in there today. But meanwhile, have some logos...

I just deleted the Obama logos, because I just remembered that rules of this forum forbid posting photos.

Anyway, they're here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5948962&mesg_id=5948962

[DeepModem Mom]

12. Thanks, IanDB! My hat's off to your creativity! nt

[JuniperLea]

2. Bullshit... Wright's remarks were not pro-Palestinian

They were anti-terrorist. They were anti-killing in the name of God.

[aquart]

4. I'm sure you can provide appropriate quotes.

Palestinians don't, of course, kill in the name of Allah. They're pretty secular in their reasons for murder. They are killing for land. So, I assume from your statement, that kind of killing is fine by Wright?

[notfullofit]

5. What are

their last words before they (the suicide bombers) blow themselves up?

[msmcghee]

6. Nail - meet Mr. Hammer. n/t

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

8. Dems typically receive 80% of the Jewish vote...

Obama still has some work to do and he'll get the job done! I'm confident of that!

[Ian David]

9. 84%. n/t

[Vegasaurus]

13. Jews support Democratic candidates for all the right reasons

support of Israel sometimes or often doesn't even figure in.

[Reynardo Parris]

30. And this time it wont' be different

A recent poll found that Obama has a huge lead over McCain among Jews. There is this twisted notion that Jewish-Americans are neocon warmonger, but the reality is the opposite. they are very intelligent voters.

[Ian David]

11. I suppose it depends on the bomber and their motives.

In some cases, it's probably, "Oh, shit!"

[notfullofit]

14. I thought there was only one motive. nt

[Ian David]

15. No... people, including suicide bombers, kill themselves for all sorts of reasons.

See:

The Hard Truth About Suicide Bombers
By Nichole Argo, AlterNet. Posted May 8, 2006.

<snip>

But these arguments fall short. At present, bombers are primarily Muslim, but this was not always so. Nor does indoctrination play a strong role in growing today's selfselected global jihad networks. Rather, militants and bombers are propelled by social ties. And even when jihadis use the Qur'an and Sunna to frame their struggle, their justifications for violence are primarily secular and grievance-based.

More:
http://www.alternet.org/audits/35815/


See also:

Suicide after US poll

<snip>

A man apparently distraught at the outcome of last week's presidential election, climbed into the pit marking the spot in New York where the twin towers once stood, and shot himself, the authorities said at the weekend.

City police told reporters the body of Andrew Veal, 25, of Athens, Georgia, was discovered in the restricted area around the wreckage of the World Trade Centre on Friday night with a shotgun and a bottle of Jack Daniels whiskey by his side. He is believed to have died from a head wound.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/08/uselections2004.usa



Also:

Self-immolation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<snip>

Self-immolation, while tolerated by Buddhism and Hinduism, was practiced by monks, especially in India for Sati, throughout the ages, for various reasons, including political protest, devotion, renouncement, etc.. Certain warrior cultures also practiced it, such as in the case of Charans and Rajputs.

During the Great Schism of the Russian Church, entire villages of Old Believers burned themselves to death in an act known as "fire baptism". Scattered instances of self-immolation have also been recorded by the Jesuit priests of France in the early 1600s. Their practice of this was not intended to be fatal, though. They would burn certain parts of their bodies (limbs such as the forearm, the thigh) to signify the pain Jesus endured while upon the cross. <2>

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation


Also:


Protesting Iraq war, a Chicago man sets self on fire and dies.

On Saturday the Sun-Times ran a small item about a man who had set himself on fire during rush hour Friday morning near the Ohio Street exit on the Kennedy. His identity had not been determined at the time, but members of the local jazz and improvised music community now say they are certain it was Malachi Ritscher, a longtime supporter of the scene.

More:
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/11/08/protesting-iraq-war-.html



People fight, kill, die and sacrifice themselves for all sorts of things.

From the guy who throws himself on a grenade in a foxhole to save his buddies, to the kamikaze pilots of WWII, to the depressed people who commit "suicide by cop" out of pure hopelessness.

And every American who has ever volunteered to fly a nuclear bomber during The Cold War knew that if they were to be called to attack the Soviet Union and drop their bombs, it would be a one-way mission. Yes, they practiced and planned for a return flight, but they all knew they were suicide bombers.

The guys in the missile silos with the matching sets of keys all knew that they were sitting in the middle of a big, retaliatory strike bulls-eye, and the moment the order to launch was given, they would become suicide bombers themselves.

There are many causes, and many reasons, to sacrifice one's life.

Suicide and suicide bombing is not unique to the Muslim world or to religion.

[Vegasaurus]

16. These are all bizarre efforts

to excuse aberrant behavior.

Show me some other people in the world today who are blowing themselves and as many other innocent people as possible.

Sacrificing ones own life is sad enough.

But sacrificing ones life with the soul goal of killing as many innocents as possible is not comparable to mental illness, depressed people, or any of your other examples.

[Ian David]

21. I'm sorry, but you are misguided in your racist attempt to single-out this single group of people.nt

[Vegasaurus]

35. It isn't racist

It's simply a fact.

Other groups are not blowing each other up (and their own breathren too, not just the evil Israelis or Americans) in the effort to kill as many people as possible.

I don't think American soldiers are interested in killing themselves, even if they have a hateful mission to get enemies.

They do not have a death wish.

Finally, comparing suicide bombers to other people who commit suicide is just plain silly.

[Ian David]

39. Tell that to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

41. I agree with your last sentence but not with most of the rest

Studies do indeed show that suicide bombers do not usually suffer from depression or other mental health problems (at least as commonly defined). Their motivations are very different from those of most people who attempt suicide.

I also agree that, on the whole, professional soldiers, while prepared to risk their lives if necessary, prefer to survive if possible, and would not deliberately seek to kille themselves or get killed.

However, suicidal violence in war or terrorism is not confined to Muslims. It *is* true that most recent suicide bombers have been members of Muslim groups; but this was not the case till quite recently. The first suicide bombing was carried out by Nihilists in Russia, to assassinate Tsar Alexander in the 1880s. More recently, the Japanese Kamikaze pilots and the Tamil Tigers have been well-known practitioners of suicide attacks.


'Other groups are not blowing each other up (and their own breathren too, not just the evil Israelis or Americans) in the effort to kill as many people as possible.'

I disagree with that! Until very recently, the UK has suffered severely from the IRA and Protestant paramilitary groups 'blowing each other up...in the effort to kill as many people as possible'. There have been, and are, other violent terrorist groups in other countries: e.g. ETA in Spain. And the Americans had Timothy McVeigh. It is true that most of these people and groups are not suicidal; if they happen to blow themselves up while planting a bomb, it's by accident. But they are still violent terrorists.

It's indeed a fact that right now the international Muslim Right are particularly bad with regard to organizing terrorism; but we should not assume that only Muslim groups are capable of such acts.

[notfullofit]

17. I am sure

there are exceptions to every rule.

The Buddhists don't try to kill thousands of innocent civilians along with themselves.

"suicide bombing is not unique to the Muslim world or to religion."
In today's world this is usually the case.

You quote many instances of people committing suicide, that is an entirely different kettle of fish, almost everybody knows someone who has done this.

[Ian David]

19. Every single American long-range nuclear bomber pilot trained to attack Russia is a Suicide Bomber.

Can I make it any more clear than that?

[msmcghee]

22. Can you be more clearly wrong than that?

Every single American long-range nuclear bomber pilot was committed to giving their life for duty - if it came to that - as all soldiers do.

Their efforts in support of a credible deterrence are what made their death (and many millions of other deaths) unnecessary. They all understood that this is what they were doing - preventing a war by providing a deterrence to attack. None of them considered their duty was to commit suicide in order to kill innocent civilians.

Conversely (or perversely) Palestinian suicide bombers have one purpose - to become a biological guided missile in order kill as many innocent civilians as possible through their own death. Their purpose is not to prevent war - it is to wage it and inflame it - and even invite retaliation against their own people that would score PR points on the world stage.

The proof of this is in the obvious history.

How many American long-range nuclear bomber pilots committed suicide as part of their missions? Zero

How many innocent civilians died as a result of their missions? Zero

How many Palestinian suicide bombers have blown themselves up in their efforts to kill Jews? Hundreds if not thousands.

How many innocent civilians died as a result of their missions? Many thousands.

[Ian David]

23. You have made my point for me and haven't realized it. n/t

[Ian David]

32. I think I owe it, even to someone like you, to be more clear.

The suicide bombers in Iraq, Palestine and elsewhere believe their causes to be just as noble, patriotic and necessary as our long-range nuclear bomber pilots believe their cause is.

I'm not saying that they are all-- or even necessarily ever-- correct in their belief.

But in their minds, they are doing something just as patriotic, just as noble, and often just as secular as our men inside the nuclear missile silos are doing. As our men in our bombers. As our men who throw themselves on a grenade in a foxhole.

[msmcghee]

33. Thanks for the clarification . .

It sounds to me though, that you subscribe to the PoMo notion that reality is whatever you think it is in your mind. We don't agree on that. I believe there is a separate, objective reality, that is independent of what any human thinks about it - or doesn't think about it.

I also believe that morality is a useful human construct that can greatly diminish human suffering and death caused by the violent acts of other humans. The version of morality that I subscribe to says that exterminationist and racist aspirations, such as ridding the ME of Jews is an immoral desire. It is even more immoral to pursue that with violence. It is even more immoral than that to direct that violence at innocent civilians.

Even if the desires were essentially moral, such as desiring a trade route or access to a seaport, it would be immoral to pursue those legal aspirations using violence when when there are peaceful means available - such as international commerce courts, negotiation, arbitration, etc.

I find it grossly offensive that anyone would compare the willful and purposeful killing of innocent civilians - for immoral aspirations - with soldiers defending their nation and their families' lives from acts of aggression.

I realize that "someone like you" will have no idea what I am talking about because to you, reality is whatever conforms to your higher level beliefs about this conflict. Still, I feel an obligation to set the record straight, even if others "like you" don't care.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Ian David]

40. Neither of you tag-teamers are progressives. Neither of you belong on a board for PROGESSIVE Dems.nt

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[notfullofit]

24. And just

how many of them did?

[Ian David]

28. Hopefully, we'll never know, will we? n/t

[msmcghee]

18. Worth the full read.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JE13Ak01.html

Why Israel is the world's happiest country
By Spengler

Envy surrounds no country on Earth like the state of Israel, and with good reason: by objective measures, Israel is the happiest nation on Earth at the 60th anniversary of its founding. It is one of the wealthiest, freest and best-educated; and it enjoys a higher life expectancy than Germany or the Netherlands. But most remarkable is that Israelis appear to love life and hate death more than any other nation. If history is made not by rational design but by the demands of the human heart, as I argued last week , the light heart of the Israelis in face of continuous danger is a singularity worthy of a closer look. <snip>

Added: I disagree with much of this - especially the religious references but a good read in any case.

[JuniperLea]

7. Here's one... looking for the others...

BILL MOYERS: Yeah. But talk a little bit about that. The prophets loved Israel. But they hated the waywardness of Israel. And they were calling Israel out of love back to justice, not damning--

REVEREND WRIGHT: Exactly.

BILL MOYERS: Not damning Israel. Right?

REVEREND WRIGHT: Right. They were saying that God was-- in fact, if you look at the damning, condemning, if you look at Deuteronomy, it talks about blessings and curses, how God doesn't bless everything. God does not bless gang-bangers. God does not bless dope dealers. God does not bless young thugs that hit old women upside the head and snatch their purse. God does not bless that. God does not bless the killing of babies. God does not bless the killing of enemies. And when you look at blessings and curses out of that Hebrew tradition from the book of Deuteronomy, that's what the prophets were saying, that God is not blessing this. God does not bless it- bless us. And when we're calling them, the prophets call them to repentance and to come back to God. If my people who are called by my name, God says to Solomon, will humble themselves and pray, seek my faith and turn from their wicked ways. God says that wicked ways, not Jeremiah Wright, then will I hear from heaven.


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04252008/transcript1.html


There are others that are more specific...

[LeftishBrit]

20. There are varied reasons

The PLO/Fatah are predominantly secular, and religion has not been a major factor in their opposition to Israel. Perhaps this is one reason why they have been more prepared to negotiate. However, Islamic Jihad presumably did not give itself that name because it was purely secular in its motives! In the case of Hamas, it is probably a mixture of religious and land-related motives.

ETA: One of the most extreme, and most violent, 'rejectionists', George Habash, was in fact Christian.

[notfullofit]

25. What was the motive

behind the London and Madrid train massacres, bombings?

[LeftishBrit]

26. A combination of religious fanaticism and anti-Western xenophobia..

I would say that pro-Palestian sympathies have VERY little to do with the terrorist actions of Al Quaeda, though they may sometimes trot them out as one of their excuses.

[notfullofit]

27. It seems to

me that some in the Arab world want to keep the Palestinian situation "as is" that way the suicide bombers always have an excuse to commit these atrocities.

It never ceases to amaze me that the Palestinian people only get 'token' help, sort of like 'pretending to care' if you know what I mean.
It is beyond my comprehension that they are the sole responsibilty of Israel, occupation or not. Because, let's face it, your enemy is not supposed to take care of you.

Instead of arming the miliitants, supply the civilian population with staples necessary to live decently.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ian David]

29. By making Israel the scapegoat for all the problems poor people in the mid-east face.

"Pay no attention to our lavish palaces, solid gold toilets, and private jets. The REAL reason you're poor is because of Israel."

[notfullofit]

31. Ain't that the truth! nt

[LeftishBrit]

42. Absolutely!

You can't run a whelk stall, let alone your own country, decently? You are stealing massive amounts of money from your own people, to make yourselves obscenely rich? You are making all sorts of oppressive laws, and there are a few dangerous noises about revolution to be heard in the air? Worry no more! Try the new - or rather, very old wonder ingredient, Xenophobia! If you can get your subjects to hate the bloody foreigners enough, they will rally around you.

Depending on circumstances, the said bloody foreigners may be Muslims or everyone who isn't Muslim; Jews or Catholics or Protestants or Sunnis or Shiites; Communists or anti-Communists; Westerners or non-Westerners; citizens of other countries or immigrants within your own country. But whatever they are, they can do a great job for you as scapegoats!